Thank you!! I am especially grateful!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
runmc
In all fairness to Shingoshi , I am going to leave this thread open for now. If the contents bother you, please stay away from the thread. Shingoshi is intitled to his dream even if most of us consider it spam.
No more flaming
I will attempt to give thorough information to justify my ambitions and claims here.
The first thing that needs to be pointed out, is that turbochargers do in fact work. There is no debate about that. The problem that exists with using them on nitro-fueled engines, is that those engines are predominantly two-stroke engines. Two-stroke engines simply cannot provide the exhaust pressure for turbochargers to function properly. YOU NEED A FOUR-STROKE ENGINE'S EXHAUST PRESSURE FOR THE OPERATION OF A TURBOCHARGER! I knew that before examining this subject. The point here is that it IS POSSIBLE to build turboexpanders small enough to meet the needs of a compressor, since the compressor IS providing the pressure required to drive a turbocharger. Additionally, the vortex tube's pressure and heat is what we're counting on here.
I will now go back and provide the edited comments to my last post to explain how this should work.
Shingoshi
That's an interesting point...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Postal Dude
Hey dude.
With regards to your parallel compressor plan, noone has disputed its use for energy efficiency, it can and has been used to great success. What EvoCarlos pointed out was... You said that if one compressor failed then the system could carry on running with reduced efficiency. If you did run your unit in this state, various nasty gack from the burnt out compressor would be pumped through your system, potentially clogging a cap tube or other metering device, which could lead to a dangerous situation pressure wise.
I really and truley hope you build this and that it works well for you as it would open up new avenues for cooling. If it doesnt work, at least you'll have learnt alot in the process.
It's just that in reading on this issue elsewhere on this site, no one mentioned it. True, I may have missed it. After all, I haven't read every post on this entire forum. But let's just hope one of the compressors doesn't go down like you said. Because that would be a very bad situation, unless they could somehow be isolated from contaminating the other units.
Should I be more concerned by the fact that I'm using discontinued compressors. The Rechi's are brand new. And so are the Danfoss. However, the Danfoss are warehouse mishaps. Supposedly, they fell off the shelf on which they were resting. So it really comes down to just how durable do compressors tend to be.
And I know that I have likely looked very fickle through all of this. But there are simply too many things to consider and think I have the final answer. With that in mind, I'm thinking of creating two separate coolant loops divided between the Rechi (R-22) and Danfoss (R-404a/507) compressors. The reason is that I'm concerned that there won't be anyway to deal with the dissimilar lubricants required by each group. So I'm thinking of using one group for the external condenser, and the second group for the internal heat management. The only unit these two groups would share in common would be the M60 heat-exchanger I already have. From what I've read, it seems that I can use R-600a in the Rechi without any trouble. But then again, I may have missed something again. If that's not a problem, it comes down to whether the four of them could handle the load being dropped on them from the internal system requirements. I don't know.
It seems that being able to cool the R-404a lower than what it could get from simple air cooling would be a great benefit. Since the system would start out with less load on it. But once again, that's conjecture.
Thanks for pointing that out...
Shingoshi
EDIT: Look closely! This should give you a clue just how DIFFERENT I tend to be.
[IMG=http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9323/doesthisgiveyouaclue.th.png]
The Copelands are beautiful machines!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
teyber
yeah man if a hermetic compressor burns out it will destroy ever component in the system. with 4 compressors or w/e you are 4 times as likely to have that happen.
What about instead of using those rechi's you use those huge 1hp copeland compressors that are used in commercial cascades?
I've seen them for sale on Ebay. And they are powerful indeed. The problem is the voltage. I live in an apartment, and I don't think the management would rewire my unit for a new 230V line.
That's why I've been concentrating my efforts on what I can achieve with 115v instead. For people who live in Europe, 230v isn't a problem. But here in the States, you don't typically see that high voltage unless you're in an industrial zone. I've thought about attempting to run 230v. But that would require that I use the line from my oven to power this system. There are logistical issues with doing that. The least of which would be creating ~30' power cord with a locking lead into the computer case. I had been thinking the refrigerator had 230v. But it seems it runs on standard household current. So I don't know about the viability of the higher current.
But I did think about it...
Shingoshi
EDIT: I'm going to search Google and see if Copeland even makes a 115v compressor. If they do, then maybe I can find one, once I know the part numbers to look for.
EDIT: Ok. Here's a list of the Copeland 115v compressors that I've found. I'll list this in order from the largest to the smallest.
1.) KAAB-007E-CAA-800
2.) KAMB-007E-CAA-800
3.) KAGB-005E-IAA-800
4.) KAMB-007A-CAA-800
5.) KAAB-007A-IAA-800
6.) KAGB-005A-IAA-800
7.) KANB-005A-IAA-800
Clicking on any one of those links, will take you to the page where I got the data. You can see the refrigerants each model uses. If you want, tell me which refrigerant makes the most sense. The largest one of these uses R-404, which is the same as the Danfoss SC18CLX.2. I don't know how much larger that model is than the Danfoss. Because the Danfoss is pretty large itself, having a displacement of almost 18cc.
That one wasn't on the list...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ultralo1
Copelend RF41C1E-CAA-929, 115V
Where did you find that one? I mean I could look. I'm going to look for it now! But if that's available on Ebay, that would be especially nice!
EDIT: I just looked. And Google turns up a blank page with nothing found. Are you sure you have the correct model number? On further examination, the Copeland I listed above as the largest 115v compressor, is simply too heavy for this application. It definitely seems to have a cast-iron frame. That may be expected for industrial applications. But for this one, it's not appropriate.
Shingoshi
Again, you bring up another good point...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[XC] gomeler
What's the weight on the 4 rechis? I've got one of Copelands largest 110v reciprocating compressors sitting at my feet. Model number RS97C1E-CAA 1.5hp 115v-1ph 9590btu/h with a 20f evap and 120f condenser while pulling 1940 watts all in a 54lb package. Compare that to 4 rechis or 2 SC18s and I think the Copeland would be more compact and lighter. The only problem is the startup current.. going to need a 30 amp circuit to keep from tripping the breakers.
I had already determined that I shouldn't proceed with anything until I have the voltage issue worked out. Because even with the multiple units I currently (no pun) intended to use, amperage will still be an issue. So I really have to work on the current (again no pun) issue before I do anything else.
EDIT: This is definitely funny. In searching Google, I found one of the few links for that compressor to be one of yours. Odd Compressor Spec Question
I'll have to read it now and see what you had to say there.
EDIT: MAN!! How did you get lucky enough to come by that compressor? I see it listed for $2,400. Damn lucky indeed!
Shingoshi
EDIT: I just want to say thanks guys!
I wouldn't wish that misery on you!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[XC] gomeler
The wonders of ebay :) I can't wait to use it someday, I've had it for roughly 18 months just waiting for the perfect project to use this baby. I bet it won't even start when I finally do use it :p:
That's always been my biggest fear about doing business on Ebay. But after reading about the Danfoss compressors on this site, finding them out of stock at the time, I found and purchased the Rechi compressors instead.
Now, back to the "current issue" :rofl:, I found this for Danfoss. But again, it's 230v. Crap, I should live someplace else where I can do the things I need to without voltage problems. Do you guys have any ideas of how to get around this perplexity?
Shingoshi
The turboexpander issue is DEAD!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SoddemFX
http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/
Regardless, it doesn’t matter because the whole quoted paragraph was drivel.
This sentence does not make sense. I think I understand what you are trying to say but I doubt that a normal refrigeration compressor will be able to provide enough flow rate and pressure to even spin an automotive turbine, let alone drive an effective cycle where work can be done in the turbine.
How can anyone tell you which refrigerant makes the most sense when you haven’t listed any requirements. For the benifit of people who want to help you, it might be worthwhile to state these requirements.
This is because I have spent one hour of my life reading this thread and I have no idea what you are actually trying to do. The sad thing is that I will never get this hour back, it is gone forever… :(
Tom
The turboexpanders were only intended as a means to rechill the refrigerants leaving the vortex tubes. That was the only intended purpose for them. I have since moved on to other considerations. So I hope it doesn't distract you any further. Because I'm no longer thinking about it.
Vortex tubes on the other hand have the ability to drop a refrigerant's temperature without the typical need to expand other higher-temperature refrigerants in order to condense lower temperature refrigerants. That's the point you've missed. I'm sorry. I should have summed it up before so that some could get it. The idea is to have all of your condensed refrigerants in a single mixture (solution), so that when the evaporation process begins it will be continuous along an evaporation path until all refrigerants have evaporated. What is expected is, that the lower temperatures forced into the first-stage vortex tube (by using the evaporation process (path) to cool the upstream refrigerants), the lower the resulting temperatures from the vortex tubes will be. It produces a loop where the refrigerants going into the vortex tubes continue to drop. They would continue to go lower until they reach a point of equilibrium, where they go no lower. The was something that was observed in detailed studies by researchers on this topic, and revealed in numerous patents that have come about.
As far as the heat load goes. The greatest load in the system will be to rechill the refrigerants escaping the vortex tube's hot outlet. Typically, that heat is @230F with a 70F inlet temperature. But here again, if I lower the inlet temperature going into the vortex tube (@0C) to begin with, the hot outlet gas from it will be considerably lowered, as will the cold outlet temperature. My eight processors will produce no more than 600W for 8x75W AMD Shanghai cpus. There will no other major heat sources to contend with. But, at the most, the system will have approximately 1000W capacity for safe operation. But then, for all the comments about cooling the compressors as well, they must be considered also. For the purpose of cooling the case's interior, I'm thinking about using a plate evaporator, like the ones used for marine cooling boxes.
Shingoshi
EDIT: On the other hand, maybe the TURBOEXPANDER issue shouldn't be dead after all. I don't think I need to say anything other than this. And if it's not enough, that's your problem.
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3466/059b2dbd2a.jpg
Microturbomachinery Patent
Something else you don't want to think about!
Claude Cycle
Quote:
The Claude cycle is a widely used cooling process in refrigeration technology. It combines isenthalpic and isentropic expansion. A refrigerator based on the Claude cycle comprises a compressor at ambient temperature, a series of heat exchangers, an expansion turbine and a Joule-Thomson valve. The principle used is to expand a part flow of the process gas in the turbine and therewith cool it down ( isentropic expansion). The turbine part flow is then used to precool the main gas stream by the means of the heat exchangers. The precooled main gas stream is further cooled down by isenthalpic expansion via the Joule-Thomson valve.
Of course, that probably sums it up too much for you!
EDIT: In this case, the Joule-Thomson valve is replaced by the vortex tube.
Shingoshi
