Would have been more fair had they used DX11.2. From what I'm hearing Nvidia is having significant gains in cpu limited scenarios with DX11.2.
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Would have been more fair had they used DX11.2. From what I'm hearing Nvidia is having significant gains in cpu limited scenarios with DX11.2.
Can't be more fair as they used BOTH Windows 7 and Windows 8.1. Re-read graph descriptions ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BababooeyHTJ
Wonder if eidos still bothers with a good implementation of mantle for thief after seeing how this game bomb, especial on pc.
I'm still waiting on an official driver release with Mantle support. I've had mixed results with beta drivers in the past so I'd rather just wait. But I am getting impatient :p:
I don't blame you for waiting. I couldn't hold out myself as I play lots of bf4. These 14.1 drivers would seriously be some of the worst I have experienced. They are buggy as hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky
New beta driver guys
http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads...14-2-beta-1-3/
Every time I load BF4 it complains about my old drivers (13.9). But hey, they work so I'm not screwing with them until I have reason to!Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMuppet
Quote:
Originally Posted by figuretti
:rofl:Quote:
Known Issues
Thief does not render the right eye when CrossFire and Stereo 3D is enabled
Thats what I get for doubting pcgh. They do a great job, thanks for pointing that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightman
Dunno if BF4 or 14.2 1.3 is at fault, but I just get a black screen after the map loads in bf4 99% of the time. Once I spawned with no GUI and was under the map, couple times BF4 froze. Had a heck of a time installing the drivers as well as the ATi uninstall tool wouldnt get rid of the previous drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by figuretti
they confuse us by releasing both at the same time.
I have installed the patch on BF4, but my driver is not updated... when i get home tonight i'm gonna test if i suffer the same errors as STEvil in the game
I call this "The Mantle Effect"... http://www.dsogaming.com/news/direct...draw-overhead/
Great news. But I reckon this will kill Mantle right off.Quote:
Originally Posted by figuretti
Not necessarily. Mantle is supposedly very similar to the implementation of the consoles, as a developer or publisher, using methods and tools similar across multiple platforms reduces cost. Secondly, DirectX and OpenGL are notoriously slow in their adoption of new standards, with Microsoft usually also for attaching whatever DX upgrade to their newest OS, leaving older versions behind. Mantle works regardless of OS version. Mantles success or failure will come more from AMD's ability to dedicate themselves to Mantles continued development and steady innovation, while leveraging their power they have from hardware in the consoles.Quote:
Originally Posted by zalbard
Found another 14.2 issue, streaming videos will "bounce in place" between a few frames if you pause them in a browser tab (firefox and opera both have this issue so far) then press play later. If you pause then press play then pause again it seems to work ok. weird..
edit
non-stream videos work fine so far (VLC)
Tried the 14.2 update. I see about 10% more fps on my 7850 on BF4 with details on medium (with 14.1, my fps was worse with Mantle). Disappointingly, as pointed by someone else on another forum (can't remember where), I'm getting that CPU-spike bug. It's easy to trigger, just do many 360s extremely fast. This doesn't happen with DX11. Reporting the issue, having a 10% increase in fps is pretty nice...
STEvil
There's fix for black screen at loading time, it has helped many users as reported by them on various forums.
EA_Rick:
"Hi everyone,
We are aware that some of you have been experiencing some crashing since the patch this morning. Below is a workaround for this problem:
1. Go into your game directory (dir:\Program files(x86)\Origin Games\Battlefield 4)
2. If you have a ?user.cfg? file, open it in notepad.
3. Delete the command line ?UI.DrawEnable 1?
4. Save the file
5. Start the game
If you do not have this file on your system but are still crashing please post here with details of what is happening so that it can be further looked into.
Thanks.
~Rick."
From myself, I can add that if you don't have the file, you can create it, put that line, start game, crash, remove it from there and it should be sorted.
Even if Mantle only served to give DX and OGL a shove, then that's still a good thing.
Fully agreed, neither API showed much sign of evolution and Mantle literally was the API equivalent of the Oxygen Catastrophe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky
I dont have anything in that folder... and cand even find a user.cfg in any of the myriad of c:\ folders that EA/BF4/origin use... wth.Quote:
Originally Posted by sobol
Nothing in prosave either.
EDIT
user.cfg is best found by right clicking BF4 shortcut then going to "open file location" as the user.cfg has more than one area it can be stored in. Good job DICE/EA.
Don't worry, sure they will. "Thief Won't Have AMD's Mantle Support At Launch, Coming via Patch in March says Eidos"Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornet331
So after a few hours of testing I have to say I rather like the Mantle renderer. It seems slightly more stable and is at least as fast as DX11, if not faster. FPS stability seems to be noticeably improved (less dips and some trouble spots do not "low out" as badly anymore).
One other thing I noticed is that it seems my 290x isnt running quite as warm either. Not sure if thats mantle or just the newer driver having some power optimizations..
[H}ard]|OCP BF4 AMD Mantle Video Card Performance Review Part 1
Small part from the conclusion:
Looks like contrary too many arguments the high end set ups also benefit from MANTLE.Quote:
When Mantle performance is compared to DirectX 11 performance within the same driver, Mantle added about 10% to the average frames per second on the AMD Radeon R9 290X and the AMD Radeon R9 290. The AMD R9 280X showed a 20% performance increase using Mantle.
This is the next paragraph.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68
"When Mantle performance is compared to DirectX 11 performance within the same driver, Mantle added about 10% to the average frames per second on the AMD Radeon R9 290X and the AMD Radeon R9 290. The AMD R9 280X showed a 20% performance increase using Mantle.
In each case, the use of Mantle did not increase the best playable settings for each card within the multiplayer environment. The more interesting thing to note is that the DirectX 11 performance of the Catalyst 14.1 and 14.2 Beta drivers appears to be lower than the performance offered by the game's launch drivers from last year. When we look at today's Mantle performance in comparison to our launch day performance, there is little to no benefit from a gameplay experience perspective to enable Mantle at this time."
"The Bottom Line
We have a lot of hope that Mantle will be a net positive for PC gaming based upon the potential that we have seen with it so far. We do not dispute the fact that Mantle is providing significant gains on slower hardware while significantly improving the overall gameplay experience, however, when looking at the benefits provided through the lens of improving upon the best playable gaming experience on current high end hardware, there's simply not a tangible benefit provided to gamers at this time on high-end cards. Those of you looking for smoother frame times in BF4 with CrossFire configurations look to be very much in luck though. And that is something that many of us have been wanting a long."
No one said there was going to be no performance increase, rather, that it was going to be less significant on the high end, particularly in mostly GPU bound situation.
This changes with Crossfire which is CPU bound but this article more or less backs up the predictions people made about mantle.
Interesting that 14.1 and 14.2 seem to lower performance. Possibly due to stabilizing frame times?
i installed these beta drivers.. now artifacts all over the place when mining LOL...
time to roll back tonight
I'm still on 13.12, mining or not I think they're the best drivers if not testing MANTLE, at least for Windows 7Quote:
Originally Posted by NKrader
Exactly... a very good point, frame pacing is enabled by default.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEC911
On a side note, Crossfire didn't work in Titanfall beta so I would expect a new driver by the 11th.
...Edit: Or not
Thief mantle update :-)
FX 8350 :-)
http://pclab.pl/zdjecia/artykuly/cha...cpu_fx8350.png
i5 4670K
http://pclab.pl/zdjecia/artykuly/cha..._cpu_4670k.png
FX 4350@4.7Ghz
http://pclab.pl/zdjecia/artykuly/cha...u_fx4350oc.png
Wccftech has a article up to
I don't know about you, but an indirect message I get from these charts is don't buy an AMD CPU for gaming, as they perform generally crummy without mantle being present.Quote:
Originally Posted by vario
The AMD CPU(8350) without mantle which is most games, loses to the more or less equivalently priced, 4670k by 20%+. 20% +percent is nothing to scoff at and gamers pay hundreds of dollars for such a difference.
The 60% difference between the 4670k and the fx4350 is gigantic. A person is making such a compromise when they are building a budget system with an AMD CPU.
Its easy to get the message from these charts just buy an Intel CPU and you don't have to worry about mantle being present or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/19/19be...547974d3f5.jpg
Also.Not all intel cpu`s are 4670K and up.Also, theres this thing, crossfire, which eventually can bog down any cpu.Also, it helps to know there are more powerful amd gfx cards coming...
Also yes yes yes, if mantle gives a huge boost when theres gfx/cpu disparity,only logical conclusion is to buy intel alongside nvidia :).The more you know.
also
No $ hit sherlock did you come up with this on your own ?Quote:
The 60% difference between the 4670k and the fx4350 is gigantic
I could go on but it would sidetrack the topic, which is mantle dude.
Does it help when you have slower cpu ? You bet it does!
Does it help when you have fast cpu ? Still do sheriff.
No one is saying you have to buy a nvidia solution. But you have to remember most people go for a single card and the price of the 4670k and fx8350 are both around 200 dollars.Quote:
Originally Posted by vario
Without mantle running the difference between the cards is 20+% with a 290x. This is significant and companies charge a lot for this difference at the high end. E.g 290--> 290x, 5-10% difference, 150 dollar difference in msrp. gtx 780 --> gtx 780 ti, $199 difference in msrp.
With mantle, the difference with a high end GPU shrinks down to a few percent.
But without it the difference is significant which tests like these show. Test that isolate certain testing conditions like the ones shown here to show the strengths of mantle, show how badly AMD CPU's perform in some games mixed with a powerful GPU.
If mantle was present in 99% percent of games, then one could make a better argument that with price being equal, the AMD solution is just a viable solution for gaming as the Intel one.
However with mantle being present in two games at the moment, your far more future proof buying an Intel solution as you don't need to worry about mantle adoption(and the intel processor still performs better when mantle is on both solutions).
Its like a broken record.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
This a mantle topic is.
Somehow you twist it into ,"well mantle only shows how sucky amd cpus are, and with intels you dont need amd gpu"
You really dont see what youre doin ?
NOBODY IS TELLIN PEOPLE TO BUY AMD CPU BECAUSE OF MANTLE.It means LITERALLY MILLIONS of people with weaker CPU`s (be it amd OR intel) may be better off just buying powerful mantle enabled gpu instead of whole system ,as we all know now, it doesnt even mean mantle only anymore, ms and khronos group have moved their assess at last and we can expect similar (albeit probably not as pronounced) changes in both DX and OpenGL.And that most probably is because of AMD and mantle!
Secondly, you critically MISS all other reasons why mantle is good, you focus on one (STILL NOT BAD!) example when mantle gives you only few to ten % while also bringing up Min fps... yea damn, what a suck this mantle thing is.
So, get to your head that, nobody here is saying or ever was that amd cpus are a good buy now because of mantle.In some specific situations they might, but mostly still arent.However the need to upgrade is not gonna be as pronounced be it intel or amd .
Also for your enlightment:
4670K 239$
FX 8350 199$
FX 8320 159$ this is essentially the same cpu as 8350
and FX 4350 for some unknown reason you compared to 4670K is 139$ so if you take 139$ and add 60% to it ,you still wont get 4670K price...
Also FX 6300 is 119$ and thats the value CPU someone who already has am3+ mobo would be buyin
http://pclab.pl/zdjecia/artykuly/cha...u_fx6350oc.png
There is literally NO downside to mantle.Yet.You whine.
What the hell? He wasn't even talking about Mantle. His comments was not focused on Mantle at all. All he said is, if you're gaming, you should buy a similar-priced intel CPU because it offers better performance, with or without Mantle. Come on guys, be a little objective rather than fanboy-heavy. I love Mantle myself but there's no reason to say all that to tajoh111 when he wasn't even talking about Mantle in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by vario
I haven't said a bad thing about mantle.Quote:
Originally Posted by vario
All I am saying is mantle testing methodology make AMD processor look bad. Without mantle, which is 99% of games, these charts make AMD cpu's look slow. 20% + is pretty huge and how these review websites test to see how much mantle improves performance makes AMD CPU look bad.
I.e
They isolate an AMD processor and it's Intel equivalent in a comparison(this highlights the difference).
They show without Mantle, AMD processors significantly behind the Intel processor(this is the anti advertising).
And with Mantle, the Intel processor is still ahead, just not as significantly(a slight positive take-away for the AMD processor).
What Mantle does show in a positive manner is that AMD CPU have a lot to gain from mantle, but almost too much. The reason I say too much is because without it as seen it graphs like that review, games perform bad without mantle.....and that is most games.
It wouldn't be so illustrative of this, if the Intel and AMD CPU, were closers and gained a similar amount pre and post mantle use.
so I take a few weeks off posting.. nothing has changed, Tajoh101 still de-rails threads on a full time basis.
so you got a job yet?
Thats the point, his talking about NOT MANTLE AT ALL, while passive agressively bashing mantle at the same occasion...Quote:
Originally Posted by blindbox
And derailing another thread.
And theres some actually ON TOPIC things about mantle he could complain, like negative performance increases in some cases on 260X or the thing that its still in beta and were in march already.
I cant believe in 11+ years of coming to xtremesystems I have never put anyone on ignore status, until now. Goodbye Tajoh. I wont miss you.
Mantle seems to be for real. I hope it keeps getting developed.
I definitely agree with you on him derailing the thread. That reminded me of Particle's sig.Quote:
Originally Posted by vario
I like how AMD put things that are beta on beta. At least they're admitting some driver versions simply suck for one reason or another rather than throwing all of them into WHQL. If a beta doesn't work, I just revert to a WHQL and so far, that has gone well for me, for a single card user.
Great posts tajoh111, nothing to worry about. Getting a bit tired of some of these people on here to be honest. Absolutely ridiculous.
Crytek bring Mantle support to CryEngine https://twitter.com/repi/status/446391703453184000
i have got the information a bit late it seems.. It seems logical looking some games who use CryEngine was allready announce supporting Mantle thoses next years. At this rythm only Unreal Engine will not support it ( who will not be a suprise ) ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconyu
Mantle improves GPU performance while also greatly decreasing CPU overhead.
Isn't that just a great thing, and can't we rejoice in the ability to utilize cheap / power hungry / slow AMD CPUs with our $400 graphics cards?
Okay, I'm being a little harsh. I think Mantle is a great thing and improves user experience for engines which benefit from it. I think it's great.
Was that an attempt at sarcasm beep :-) ? Anyhow anybody who says mantle will be useful only for people with amd cpus is just plain wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
http://pclab.pl/zdjecia/artykuly/cha...mantle_gpu.png
Here we see the lowering of performance with 260X tho, thats why i dont like this whole beta thing after all this time.I understand AMD has to many things on its plate and too few people, but for christ sakes they should start being a lot more open about their stuff.
well this graph only shows what we allreay know, when a game is limited by the gpu you won't see much gain from mantle at all (and as you mentioned even see performance reductions in some cases).Quote:
Originally Posted by vario
For me in the end mantel is a so-so solution, if you really want better performance across the board you can't overcome the purchace of more powerful components.
The best thing so far that spawned from mantle is that both ogl and dx now focus more on lowering/optimizing there overhead.
I actually think minimum frame rates is the most impressive gain you could get, and if you are a multi GPU user you get FPS gains across the board, the CPU doesn't hold you back. It seems not a big deal today, but in six/nine months time when Nvidia cards are CPU bottlenecked at 1080p and AMD are benching their 20nm cards on BF4 at 1080p without a CPU bottleneck Mantle will look much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornet331
Edit: Let me give you something to think on, how big is the gap between the 580GTX and the 680GTX vs the 2600k and the 4770k in terms of gaming performance and how many years do you think it will take before the gap is so big, no CPU you could buy could release the potential of a top end GPU?
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphic...rformance-FCATQuote:
BF4 Integrates FCAT Overlay Support
Back in September AMD publicly announced Mantle, a new lower level API meant to offer more performance for gamers and more control for developers fed up with the restrictions of DirectX. Without diving too much into the politics of the release, the fact that Battlefield 4 developer DICE was integrating Mantle into the Frostbite engine for Battlefield was a huge proof point for the technology. Even though the release was a bit later than AMD had promised us, coming at the end of January 2014, one of the biggest PC games on the market today had integrated a proprietary AMD API.
When I did my first performance preview of BF4 with Mantle on February 1st, the results were mixed but we had other issues to deal with. First and foremost, our primary graphics testing methodology, called Frame Rating, wasn't able to be integrated due to the change of API. Instead we were forced to use an in-game frame rate counter built by DICE which worked fine, but didn't give us the fine grain data we really wanted to put the platform to the test. It worked, but we wanted more. Today we are happy to announce we have full support for our Frame Rating and FCAT testing with BF4 running under Mantle.
This info as come to light that there is more than 1 frame pacing method built into BF4.
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...7&postcount=14Quote:
Originally Posted by humbug
We're only about 2 months into the Mantle beta: February and March. That's not terribly long yet for complex code. Plus, they've already given an estimate for the public SDK, which is later this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by vario
The problem is the current pricing on the FX-4350 is $139 @ Newegg and 4 days ago I spent $179 on my new i5-4670K at my local MicroCenter, and an Asrock z87 extreme4 for an additional $89.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
that's great and all but I think a larger percentage of people have access to newegg than they do microcenter, so that deal only applies to what, a fraction of 1%?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
Thats nice, but for most people (most people dont live in states and even more not around microcenyer shops ;-) choice is more like mineQuote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
267$ for the i5
and 174$ for a FX 8320
But yea, FX 4xxx is pointless at this point
While i5 is the better cpu it isnt as dramatic of a choice as youre trying it to be ;-)
http://www.firaxis.com/?/S=5845faeea...nt-with-mantleQuote:
Civilization graphic engineers Josh Barczak and John Kloetzli introduce AMD?s Mantle API, and explain why Firaxis is supporting Mantle with Civilization: Beyond Earth.
0. What is Mantle?
A ?Graphics API? (Application Programming Interface) is a protocol that rendering engines use to send commands to a GPU (Graphics Processing Unit). The API provides an abstract set of commands like ?draw? which are translated by a GPU driver into commands which a particular device can understand. At present, the two most well-known graphics APIs are DirectX and OpenGL. DirectX is dominant on Windows, and OpenGL is dominant on many other platforms.
Mantle is a new graphics API developed by AMD, and supported on all newer AMD devices beginning with the Radeon HD 7000 series.
1. What is important about Mantle?
As game developers, we want to maximize our products? reach while minimizing our development costs. Why then, would we spend a great deal of time and effort in something that would benefit only a subset of our user base? The idea of a platform-specific API, while not unheard of was not often implemented. After all, why would anyone write their application twice, when they could write it once?
In software, the only numbers of significance are 0, 1, and N. Every cross-platform graphics engine that we have ever worked with has been designed around some kind of API abstraction which separates the game code on top from the graphics platform on the bottom. If the abstraction layer is well built, then the cost of maintaining two graphics platforms is not worse than the cost of one. It is also important to understand that, with the right architecture, graphics APIs are essentially a fixed cost. Mantle has required an up-front investment, but the cost for future products to continue offering it will be considerably lower.
Because Mantle is so new, and so different, the development cost is higher than normal. In order to understand why it?s worth it, you need to understand just how important Mantle is.
2. What does Mantle Buy You?
Simply put, Mantle is the most advanced and powerful graphics API in existence. It provides essentially the same feature set as DX11 or OpenGL, and does so at considerably lower runtime cost.
The conventional wisdom in real-time rendering is that batches, or ?draw calls? are expensive. On the PC, with current APIs, this notion is firmly rooted in fact. This is a problem that has plagued engine and driver design since at least the DX9 era, and a large body of real-time rendering tradecraft is motivated by it (instancing, state sorting, texture atlasing, texture arrays, ?uber-shaders?, to name a few). Civilization, it turns out, requires a significant amount of rendering to generate our view of the world, and that in turn means we are required to make many, many more draw calls than you might expect.. Our birds? eye view of the world means that we have a lot more ?stuff? on screen than is typical, and our UI (a rich source of draw calls) is considerably more complex than the average.
Mantle changes things by working at a lower level than its competitors. Much of the work that drivers used to do on an application?s behalf is now the responsibility of the game engine. This means that the Mantle API is able to be backed by a very small, simple driver, which is thus considerably faster. It also means that this work, which must still be done, is done by someone with considerably more information. Because the engine knows exactly what it will do and how it will do it, it is able to make design decisions that drivers could not.
Besides being more efficient, core per core, Mantle also enables fully parallel draw submission (this has been attempted before, but never with the same degree of success). Until now, the CPU work of processing the draw calls could only by executed on one CPU core. By removing this limitation, Mantle allows us to spread the load across multiple cores and finish it that much faster.
All of this means that Mantle has, quite literally, reduced the cost of a draw call by an order of magnitude. This is an amazing technical achievement and difficult for us to exaggerate the importance of this savings. It is a disruptive technical development which will have far-reaching implications for PC gaming. It will alter the dynamics of the market. It will re-write portions of the real-time rendering book. It will change the design of future APIs and engines and greatly enhance their capabilities.
3. What Does This Mean to the Player?
By reducing the CPU cost of rendering, Mantle will result in higher frame rates on CPU-limited systems. As a result, players with high-end GPUs will have a much crisper and smoother experience than they had before, because their machines will no longer be held back by the CPU. On GPU-limited systems, performance may not improve, but there will still be a considerable drop in power consumption. This is particularly important given that many of these systems are laptops and tablets. The reduced CPU usage also means that background tasks are much less likely to interfere with the game?s performance, in all cases.
Finally, the smallness and simplicity of the Mantle driver means that it will not only be more efficient, but also more robust. Over time, we expect the bug rate for Mantle to be lower than D3D or OpenGL. In the long run, we expect Mantle to drive the design of future graphics APIs, and by investing in it now, we are helping to create an environment which is more favorable to us and to our customers.
4. What about these other Vendors?
At present, the benefits of Mantle extend only to those customers which can run it. We recognize that a large fraction of our customers will not have access to Mantle, and we do not intend to discriminate.
Our philosophy is to strive to use our customers? machines to their fullest potential. To the extent possible, DirectX customers will see the same images as Mantle customers, and we will provide DirectX customers with the highest performance that their systems are capable of. It is precisely this motivation which impels us to offer Mantle to those customers who can use it, because their machines possess great untapped potential. By tapping that potential, we hope to drive positive changes which will eventually spread to all of our other customers.
We expect that future graphics APIs will follow Mantle?s lead, and become much lower-level, out of necessity. There is nothing preventing other vendors from following AMD?s example and offering low-level access to their own hardware, and we are perfectly willing to support such efforts. One API is clearly better for us than many, but if having many allows us to maximize performance across the board, then that is where the future will take us.
In the irreverently paraphrased words of Sir Winston Churchill:
?If we can standardize it, all drawcalls may be free, and the life of the gamers may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands?.
That, dear friends, is why ?I Am Mantle.?
Mantle is working great for my 3 270X cards with a eyefinity setup, couldnt be happier!
so when should the new cards drop from either team? i was looking into getting two 290's for CF but maybe i should hold off?
Not any time soon it seems. Especially from AMD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Circaflex
NVIDIA should be Q3, I have no idea for AMD.
Confirmative.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] Oj101
Amd might go for Q1 2015.
Although it is ok to buy low end cards now as the upcoming 730s suggest there wont be their replacement form Maxwell family just yet.
Enter the most boring part of GFX history?