Feser's New Lineup

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Originally Posted by jmm5351

The only reason why I ask is because I want to buy a new radiator and I was willing to wait a period of time for the Admiral Monsta Series, but I am only going to wait another few days for a reply back from FrozenCPU. If no reply big deal all radiators perform similarily close anyways, especially the big name radiators that everyone are familiar with. But since I haven't got an answer back I am going to safely assume that they aren't going to be for sale on FrozenCPU till after February, probably much after February. I don't understand what takes people so long to get products out for sale. I know the whole process because I am an engineer, and these companies tend to slack a lot when it comes to pushing out a new technology or product. The only company off the top of my head that is not what I just said is Intel. They churn out technology like they stole it from aliens.

Company's have been slacking though lately and need to keep up. That's why the American Economy is going to hell. I hate to say it but it is true. Things were different back in the good ole days.

The Hooverdam only took 4 years to complete for crying out loud. Feser can't even make a new radiator in that amount of time lol

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Seeing they only had a engineering sample @ CES, I think it's fairly safe to say you won't see these for a while yet.

How long are they going to drag this drama out? If you want to hype a product, then go ahead. But if drag it out over months and months people are not gonna give a crap anymore.

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Seeing they only had a engineering sample @ CES, I think it's fairly safe to say you won't see these for a while yet.

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I can only add, that the problem is not in the production it self, but the relationship between the client (TFC) and the actual manufacturer. This was ruined by the first one. So, I guess, we won't see these "awesome" rads at all, unless the client finds friends in Asia

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Originally Posted by SpuTnicK

I can only add, that the problem is not in the production it self, but the relationship between the client (TFC) and the actual manufacturer. This was ruined by the first one. So, I guess, we won't see these "awesome" rads at all, unless the client finds friends in Asia

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...but in Dazmode's vid, they said "completely made in Gerhmany". :shrug:

haha, they can say whatever they want, and you, WL, not a child to believe these stories. It is all marketing hypes, if you ask me

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Originally Posted by SpuTnicK

haha, they can say whatever they want, and you, WL, not a child to believe these stories. It is all marketing hypes, if you ask me

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You forget who your talking to, I was just reiterating their claim. ;) :D

oh you darn joker :D

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Originally Posted by Holst

The gains in a "normal" watercooling system with low wattage and slow fans will be pretty minimal by increasing turbulence.

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I'm going to half disagree with you. I'd speculate that lower flow scenarios should show higher sensitivity to the internal flow characteristics, e.g. 'turbulence'.

While waiting for the Admirals....some more weeks....or maybe month...you can have a look at this tfc copy of an old noiseblocker product:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVJOq..._order&list=UL

original:

http://www.noiseblocker.de/HDDZubehoer.php

:rolleyes:

Meh, if we're gonna classify all single and double hdd silencers as NB copies, why not toss in the one Scythe made as well :p:.

Feser did a nice job on the design, and just because the design looks similar, I have a hard time calling it a copy.

Well, if you knew more details about TFC and NB, you would said different ;)

Meh, ask Dirk, Boss of Noiseblocker who makes the design of the Admiral Rads and builds the first prototype ~ 4 years ago ! And ask, why the admirals are still not on the market.....maybe because of some patents ?!

Hmm? I thought that NB and TFC are related just with TFC Triebwerks that they developed together, and which uses NB's NanoSLI bearings ..

Fester, the copy company ;)

I found this today:

http://hw-lab.com/thermalfins-a-new-...ercooling.html

maybe this is/was the company which was behind feser to produce the admirals and making their own thing now ? :rolleyes:

Looks interesting.

Very interesting article. So the real manufacturer is "Lötters Metallwaren GmbH". I like the plastic inserts idea for screw mounts. Still very puzzled about actual performance, and water flow resistance... 3x140 is priced at 185 euro, which makes the SR-1 look cheap.

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Originally Posted by bundymania

I found this today:

http://hw-lab.com/thermalfins-a-new-...ercooling.html

maybe this is/was the company which was behind feser to produce the admirals and making their own thing now ? :rolleyes:

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LOL, awesome!

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X-series radiators are already in full-scale production and will be available from March 2011 at Thermalfins e-shop, followed by Xs line-up presented in April.

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Waiting for pricing! :D

More here:

http://www.overclock.net/hardware-ne...cooling-2.html

Nice I can't wait to see Skinnee's review.

Gotta love how they are marketing the use of tubes connected in serial as an advantage. heheheh

This is interesting to see something actually[somewhat] new in PC rad design. I'm not sure it will be better than what we have now.

I'd think if Lötters Metallwaren was investing to bring this to market, they'd have a good idea if it's a competitive design.

I know nothing of this company, living in US though. Time/objective testing will tell the tale, doubt anyone in the know will pop for these without such testing.:up:

An interesting side tail seems to exist here, I read that FrozenCPU invested a tidy sum with Feser, to develop this rad design. I wonder what the real story is behind all this.:shrug:

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Originally Posted by the finisher

An interesting side tail seems to exist here, I read that FrozenCPU invested a tidy sum with Feser, to develop this rad design. I wonder what the real story is behind all this.:shrug:

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:poke: for drama

_________________


Someone care to explain to me how SS is supposed to be better than copper or brass? Is it the "stainless" part, because I remember steel plugs.

FTA "And there is no need to worry about electro-chemical erosion, since wetted parts are not made of aluminum but steel instead."

Waiting for the P&P.

I don't think SS is better, I have no idea how this will perform. I use TC rads, and am happy. So, I'm not in the market for new, and improved.

However a new design is interesting, I'll wait for testing before I go hating on this somewhat new rad. It's still a tube type rad.


@Quagmire LXIX, what's P&P?:shrug: And I don't want any drama, I'm just curious.

It's been like 5 months since they released pics of the radiators... can we have them now?

Well, the article suggests to wait till March

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Originally Posted by bundymania

...

maybe this is/was the company which was behind feser to produce the admirals and making their own thing now ? :rolleyes:

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Why not, at least some one has the guts to present new product properly, IMHO

Exact this happens now, a guy from the company wrote:

TFC tried to twit me on the worst way…! There´s no patent owned by TFC…because…a contract has to be signed ( this contract was done by the patent attorney )…this contract should arrange the cooperation between TFC and me…and after all was done, TFC didn´t sign it !

But what about Admiral Rads...and FrozenCPU...which was investing 30.000 $ in the new Rad Series ? Hey Mark, pls tell us some details, what is going on.

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Originally Posted by the finisher

@Quagmire LXIX, what's P&P?

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Performance and pricing? Just guessing...

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Originally Posted by the finisher

I don't think SS is better, I have no idea how this will perform. I use TC rads, and am happy. So, I'm not in the market for new, and improved.

However a new design is interesting, I'll wait for testing before I go hating on this somewhat new rad. It's still a tube type rad.


@Quagmire LXIX, what's P&P?:shrug: And I don't want any drama, I'm just curious.

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I only used that visual because there wasn't a popcorn emoticon, I see now how badly I failed :) Personally, I would love to hear about the drama behind the curtain on this (if there is any).

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Originally Posted by zalbard

Performance and pricing? Just guessing...

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:yepp: but I'm not into this steel stuff. I do want to see how the design fairs for cooling though.

Q

No problem:up:

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/fo...lt-popcorn.gif

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/fo...lt-popcorn.gif

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lol, if you posted that for me, you're cheating Martin :D , thanks, I stashed the url :up: I guess Fugger doesn't want one here.


if you posted it because you are grabbing a box yourself, then I'm officially embarrassed.

No I just posted it for all the drama(elsewhere) entertainment..:)

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/fo...lt-popcorn.gif

Not much drama here...yet:ROTF: Be nice to see a actual product to get excited about, or not.

the performance of these things better be amazing or else feser will have wasted a lot of frozens money and patience for nothing. i wouldnt be suprised if this brought about the death of the feser company ;)

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/3017/popcorn2wf2.gif

/http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif

They have had working models for quite some time now. How long does it take for them to hook them up to a loop and test them. What maybe 6 hours for a good test ? Truth is that they probably don't perform any better than current rads on the market otherwise with initial test they would of expedited the production and had them on the market a long time ago.

I will be surprised if they perform better than the current design.

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Originally Posted by Elmy

They have had working models for quite some time now. How long does it take for them to hook them up to a loop and test them. What maybe 6 hours for a good test ? Truth is that they probably don't perform any better than current rads on the market otherwise with initial test they would of expedited the production and had them on the market a long time ago.

I will be surprised if they perform better than the current design.

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Or they do, but the production prices make them not worth it.

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Originally Posted by Elmy

How long does it take for them to hook them up to a loop and test them. What maybe 96 hours for a good test ?

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Fixed. ;)

:yawn: ...

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Originally Posted by skinnee

Fixed. ;)

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The master has spoken .. I apologize if I was incorrect .... LoL

But really they should have internal numbers already.

LOL! Glad you took it as me having some fun.

Yes, internal performance should have been done in oh, maybe September to hit that original October release date. :p:

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Originally Posted by skinnee

LOL! Glad you took it as me having some fun.

Yes, internal performance should have been done in oh, maybe August to hit that original September release date. :p:

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Fixed :p:

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Fixed :p:

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I had that and then did a ninja edit... should've left a post it note on my monitor. ;)

Here´s a translation of what the guy from Lötters wrote @HW Lab Comments Section:

Many of you might be familiar with the history of these radiators, so I'll skip this "dark chapter of a cooperation".
It's true that the radiators look a lot alike as they are part of the same "family".
The entire production is designed for high quality...starting at the used materials (I know...stainless steel), over the way surface treatment, to the service. Why stainless steel out of all the possibilities?
When taking a look at the prices of copper, one can see that they are skyrocketing. Stainless steel can't transfer heat as good as copper, but, and this is the most important part, if I cover a 0.2mm thick pipe out of stainless steel with an aluminum pipe, the material of the inner pipe gets less and less important... (Did anyone ever touch a knife out of stainless steel, that just came out of the dishwasher? It's damn hot!)...a thermal breakthrough occurs, the thermal conductivity of the aluminum is all that counts, so everything works out just fine. So much for the stainless steel issue.
Also, there's no soldering involved in the production. Everything is welded together by lasers, resulting in no deformation at all. It also doesn't require any additives, so the radiators are fully RoHS-compilant.

I hope I was able to explain a few things...
Regards,
Tom / thermalfins

Great.I hope this works as good as it sounds.
BTW should there be a new thread for these rads?

Yes that would be better. Here´s a new thread for those thermafin rads, i can ask the user if he´s willing to start and organize it here too:

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community...en-790262.html

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Originally Posted by bundymania

Here´s a translation of what the guy from Lötters wrote @HW Lab Comments Section:

Many of you might be familiar with the history of these radiators, so I'll skip this "dark chapter of a cooperation".
It's true that the radiators look a lot alike as they are part of the same "family".
The entire production is designed for high quality...starting at the used materials (I know...stainless steel), over the way surface treatment, to the service. Why stainless steel out of all the possibilities?
When taking a look at the prices of copper, one can see that they are skyrocketing. Stainless steel can't transfer heat as good as copper, but, and this is the most important part, if I cover a 0.2mm thick pipe out of stainless steel with an aluminum pipe, the material of the inner pipe gets less and less important... (Did anyone ever touch a knife out of stainless steel, that just came out of the dishwasher? It's damn hot!)...a thermal breakthrough occurs, the thermal conductivity of the aluminum is all that counts, so everything works out just fine. So much for the stainless steel issue.
Also, there's no soldering involved in the production. Everything is welded together by lasers, resulting in no deformation at all. It also doesn't require any additives, so the radiators are fully RoHS-compilant.

I hope I was able to explain a few things...
Regards,
Tom / thermalfins

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Thermodynamics wise, this is correct... thermal transfer is dependent on the thermal conductivity of the material, and the distance that the heat has to travel through the material.

It's the same reason that waterblock bases keep getting thinner and thinner, to the point where they are no longer mechanically feasible. If we were able to make a microchannel waterblock with a .010" thick base, and it was still mechanically stable enough to attain appropriate pressure across the thermal interface, it would outperform any block on the market.

A shorter distance for heat to travel will trump a material with improved thermal conductivity, and with equal distance to travel, thermal conductivity is king.

Stainless steel is more mechanically stable than copper, so thinner tubes can be used whilst still maintaining mechanical stability, and the reduced thermal conductivity vs. copper becomes a non-issue.

People in this hobby are so focused on materials, that they sometimes forget to worry about design... good engineering can easily make up for lower performance materials.

Think of it this way... place your hand on a piece of stainless steel foil, and pour icewater on the other side. Then do the same with a thick copper sheet. Which would feel cold first?

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Originally Posted by iandh

Think of it this way... place your hand on a piece of stainless steel foil, and pour icewater on the other side. Then do the same with a thick copper sheet. Which would feel cold first?

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Hey iandh, that's not a very fair analogy because it only deals with the transient. The foil simply reaches steady state in less time. It doesn't address the steady-state heat transfer though which is all we really care about. At steady state, distance is less important.

On another note - I can't believe this thread still doesn't have retail product pics in it yet. I'm so not excited anymore :) .

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Originally Posted by meanmoe

Hey iandh, that's not a very fair analogy because it only deals with the transient. The foil simply reaches steady state in less time. It doesn't address the steady-state heat transfer though which is all we really care about. At steady state, distance is less important.

On another note - I can't believe this thread still doesn't have retail product pics in it yet. I'm so not excited anymore :) .

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It's just an analogy to help people that are having trouble imagining that thin stainless tubes could outperform thick copper ones.

Regardless of what the analogy shows in relation, the science still says that the water/air delta at equilibrium will be lower on the stainless foil, than it will on the copper sheet.

Distance determines the minimum theoretical water to air delta... material does matter, but it doesn't necessary hold you back as long as you can compensate with less thickness.

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Originally Posted by iandh

It's just an analogy to help people that are having trouble imagining that thin stainless tubes could outperform thick copper ones.

Regardless of what the analogy shows in relation, the science still says that the water/air delta at equilibrium will be lower on the stainless foil, than it will on the copper sheet.

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Sure, if the copper sheet is at least 8 to 40 times the thickness of the stainless steel foil.

The science, in form of a simplified differential equation for 1-d heat flux, says:
q = -k * dT/dx
where k is conductivity and dx is the differential for distance through the material right.

You probably know more about material dimensions than I do. Is SS foil 1/8-1/40 times the thickness of a copper sheet that would be used for a radiator channel?

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Originally Posted by iandh

Distance determines the minimum theoretical water to air delta... material does matter, but it doesn't necessary hold you back as long as you can compensate with less thickness.

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Thickness (for 1-d) and conductivity have almost equal weight. I actually didn't believe the statement above about the SS being negligible so I had to figure it out myself with the following simplifying assumptions.

The conductivity of aluminum is like 2-4 times worse than copper (IIRC 100-200 W/mK) and stainless steel is like 4-10 times worse than aluminum. What should make it worse, is that you now have an additional medium to go through by combining the SS and Al. q = dT/(1/sum(dx/k_i)).

Assuming 0.2mm stainless wrapped with aluminium, the stainless term all but falls out for aluminium thicknesses of 0.2mm to 5mm. The required ratio of copper to aluminum thickness for equivalent heat flux is 1/2 - 1/4 to 2 significant digits. That's kind of cool.

The laser welding vs. soldering also probably gives them another heads up. I'm going to go back to my original statement (and yours) that things can always be optimized through good engineering. I'm looking forward to this again.

EDIT: sorry for the equation blah blah, but like I said I had to figure it out myself and this way someone can tell me how wrong I am (paging mpg ;) ).

damn this thread is still going on? lol

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Originally Posted by Aedubber

damn this thread is still going on? lol

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that's what I said. note what's not in it.

I doubt the copper channels used in regular heater cores that we are using are any thicker than 1mm ? 0.5mm would sound more realistic... ? Anyone has figures about this ?

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Originally Posted by Aedubber

damn this thread is still going on? lol

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Originally Posted by meanmoe

that's what I said. note what's not in it.

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A separate thread has been started. Come join the discussion here

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Originally Posted by gmat

I doubt the copper channels used in regular heater cores that we are using are any thicker than 1mm ? 0.5mm would sound more realistic... ? Anyone has figures about this ?

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I may have something in a couple days. I'm mulling over whether or not I want to cut open my GTS 120. I really hate the damn thing and it'd make a good sacrifice if I make up my mind that I never want to use the thing again. The only thing keeping me from doing it at this moment is my AP-15's...they may actually make the GTS "useful". ;)

Just for information. Only few rad manufacturers use Copper for tube material, for example, XSPC RX-series, Coolgate, Feser X-changer (no more). Others, Thermochill, EK, Swiftech, Phobya, have either Brass tubes or don't specify tube material at all. Fins, on the other side, are Copper for all these rads.

It looks like Admiral are going to be released after all

You Tube

Estimates - July 2011 (read the comments)

yep, but this radiator desing isn't patented by thermalfins?

Thats awesome, it would be cool if they could release them with the acrylic end caps and joining pieces.

So will they release them with both types of end caps? It would be interesting to see whether the serial path gives better transfer rates than the parallel.

Been 8 months since announcement....if something isn't seriously wrong with their performance (Thermalfins, too), I'd be surprised.

:2cents:

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Originally Posted by ying

yep, but this radiator desing isn't patented by thermalfins?

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No. AFAIK Admirals are produced somewhere far East ;)

Might be underwhelming :)
but we can test during the nice summer temperatures

Been looking through a bunch of Youtube videos and bumped into this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpHgl...ailpage#t=204s

Is that a new Feser rad? (3:24). Surely does not look like AC AMS or Thermalfins X3

Compare to this:

Attachment 117408

http://hw-lab.com/thermalfins-a-new-...ercooling.html

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Originally Posted by bundymania

Compare to this...

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That does no look like steel to me, more of Acrylic/Plastic

Probably an acrylic endpiece on the AMS. edit: actually, considering the source, it might very well be a Feser rad with an acrylic endpiece.

Seems that some products from Admiral line Feser actually managed to make. Shrouds with LEDs :/
It looks as their height is optimal one (~30, as per Martin's test), but imho they should have call it somehow else, to not remind about many failures in bringing admiral rads to market.
Also pricing .. cutting up yates is so much cheaper :/

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Originally Posted by churchy

Seems that some products from Admiral line Feser actually managed to make. Shrouds with LEDs :/

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well considering they said this

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Any updates on the official release date yet?

the release will be july.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ4oCy-vCsc

i was surprised nobody mentioned this video :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXnX6...&feature=feedu

'so, has anyone actually seen one of these on the market?? Even the Feser website does not list any rads ??

very strange indeed

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Originally Posted by king033

i was surprised nobody mentioned this video :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXnX6...&feature=feedu

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absolutely pointless

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Originally Posted by SpuTnicK

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Originally Posted by king033

i was surprised nobody mentioned this video :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXnX6...&feature=feedu

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absolutely pointless

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+1

I have multiple problems with that vid.

1. what generation is that Admiral? Is is one of the first prototypes or is it a newer modular version that he just got? I noticed he mentioned a RX360 in the vid, does this mean that the 240 was the only Admiral he has?

2. what was ambient? If the ambient was high teens to low 20's, temps of a loaded system are going to look a lot better than if the temps were say mid to high 20's.

3. editing of the vid leaves a lot of doubt in my mind as to how many video sessions there were before he got results that were to his liking.

4. last but certainly not least...3k RPM screamers?...really??? These rads were supposedly designed to work best with their Triebwerk crap which are from from the screamers he used but, he did sort of validate what I said back on page 11. ;)

That vid is nothing more than a marketing tool to see how much interest there still is in a rad that will likely never see the light of day...shilling at it's best.

Put 3k screamers on any decent 240mm and you'll cool that rig. That can in no way be used as indication of the rad performance. Did he even mention ambient? Water temp was still rising too in the occt test - you can tell as the gpu's idle temp is still climbing. Not good that it hasnt reached equilibrium in that amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

+1

I have multiple problems with that vid.

1. what generation is that Admiral? Is is one of the first prototypes or is it a newer modular version that he just got? I noticed he mentioned a RX360 in the vid, does this mean that the 240 was the only Admiral he has?

2. what was ambient? If the ambient was high teens to low 20's, temps of a loaded system are going to look a lot better than if the temps were say mid to high 20's.

3. editing of the vid leaves a lot of doubt in my mind as to how many video sessions there were before he got results that were to his liking.

4. last but certainly not least...3k RPM screamers?...really??? These rads were supposedly designed to work best with their Triebwerk crap which are from from the screamers he used but, he did sort of validate what I said back on page 11. ;)

That vid is nothing more than a marketing tool to see how much interest there still is in a rad that will likely never see the light of day...shilling at it's best.

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Originally Posted by PiLsY

Put 3k screamers on any decent 240mm and you'll cool that rig. That can in no way be used as indication of the rad performance. Did he even mention ambient? Water temp was still rising too in the occt test - you can tell as the gpu's idle temp is still climbing. Not good that it hasnt reached equilibrium in that amount of time.

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+1

Don't you think he would show a bit more of the rad?

Smells fishy

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Originally Posted by thegcpu

Don't you think he would show a bit more of the rad?

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There is a 3d part of that build log that shows a bit more of that rad. So i guess that answers my question in post 559:

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Originally Posted by SpuTnicK

Is that a new Feser rad?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpuTnicK

There is a 3d part of that build log that shows a bit more of that rad.

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Don't you think he would SHOWCASE the rad, as the LC community has been waiting a year to see this thing

Smells real fishy….

Its probably just a sample from months ago he's using up. Given the hype it would generate it would've been given more of a feature and hopefully more of a test if it was a release preview.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegcpu

Don't you think he would SHOWCASE the rad, as the LC community has been waiting a year to see this thing

Smells real fishy….

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nahh... TFC would let him. Do you remember their reaction to the leaked admiral micro-site with all specs that was shortly closed with monkey face put instead. And now some guy just "accidentally" puts a engineering sample of a new top secret product into his vid... yeah that does sound fishy.

And i believe this is what happened: this design has failed to perform well despite all the hype around it (at least in the way Fester implemented it in its rads), but first eng. samples were sent out to its "partners" before it was discovered. So now there is no reason to hide it. Instead, why not create a bigger fuzz about it - so here you are folks, a freshly baked benchmark video.

BTW where did that modular design system go? That dual 120 rad does not seemed to be built out of two cooling units.

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Originally Posted by SpuTnicK

BTW where did that modular design system go? That dual 120 rad does not seemed to be built out of two cooling units.

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it's still there, watch closely (sidepanels are in 2 pieces) ;)

you can also see it in here

designing a case with four of these now
Attachment 117869

dunno... are you sure four is enough? :rofl:

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Originally Posted by SpuTnicK

There is a 3d part of that build log that shows a bit more of that rad. So i guess that answers my question in post 559:

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OK, so it looks like a modular 240...when did he get it though? Is it part of the prototype that he "rescued" at CES or is it newer?

I'm sure Mark @ FCPU would royally pi**ed off if they are giving new Admiral stuff out to anyone but him or skinnee, he did bank roll the failure after all.

Hush, if skinnee gets his hands on those rads he might test and find out their performance and even make that info public. That might be not in best business interests of TFC. :)

Judging from the acrylic ends it could be newer version since almost the same design rad was spotted in earlier teaser videos by TFC

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

OK, so it looks like a modular 240...when did he get it though? Is it part of the prototype that he "rescued" at CES or is it newer?

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Yes it is dual-modular model. It is significantly different from sample I have seen at CES and it is still different from production model(s) as there further improvements were implemented.

I did some lazy performance runs on YouTube as part of my Orange build log. Works fine and seems has very little restriction to airflow comparing with traditional rads,... but I have no interest or free time to go into any serious testing. Triple rad would be better fit as you can see for the amount of hardware I have.

Sorry, i have no info about release date.

http://www.dazmode.com/_image/orange...abyte%20b6.jpg