[Review] Round 2: EK Supreme HF

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03-16-2010, 08:00 AM
chinook

I recently bought this waterblock and i was wondering wich plate i should use to get minimum load temps. The loop will cool a 720be and includes a mcp-355, a hwlabs 480gtx rad and the EK DDC X-RES 140. Any advice? Sorry if this is not in the correct thread, but i thought i'd find here enough people who have played with the plates of the waterblock and maybe have a similar setup.
03-16-2010, 08:09 AM
century child

It's been stated in this thread previously several times that plate #1 is the way to go for best temps.
03-16-2010, 08:17 AM
chinook

So plate #1 regardless of pump model used and/or rad. Thank you.
03-16-2010, 08:33 AM
dejanh

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayhall0315

Dejanh - I used the loop I did because this is an average representation of what to expect for both temps and flow in a real installed and running setup. The flow meter idea is fine, but as long as same loop is used, and no variable changes but block, .... it is apples to apples.

Vapor - Bernoulli's hydrostatic equations for closed connected loops. I am not in an argumentative mood, just I have to disagree with all the pumps turned off and the side loop. The best testing setup you can acquire with the tools listed in your methodology section is similar to the setup this guy used at the systemsextreme website back in 2001 -2004 (cant remember name now but will get it for you). The XT, GTZ and HF are all machined fine and without problems (I checked their bases but pictures can be provided if needed). P4 is getting higher flow rates cause it has 7 channels cut in it. P1 is getting less flowrate cause it has 2 channels cut it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayhall0315

No I did not use a micrometer on it Vapor, but I did look at the bases and no bent channels, depth irregularities, bent pins (on the XT) etc... Simply saying that I think my EK HF is an average sample and representative of other HF's and is not a statistical outlier

Your duel loop should only be 1% variance if your resevoir approaches a large size. At smaller sizes and with your extra pumps on, the fluid pressure going into and exerted on the walls of the resevoir will be higher (the smaller the resevoir the higher the fluid pressure) and this will definitely affect your second loop. The solution to this a second order ODE state space setup and is part of Bernoulli hydrostatics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prava

Mmmm, here it is. You are only accepting the best results instead of the average (Vapor eliminates the best and the worst results, accounting them as statistical deviation), which is not good for testing purposes. Also, your test-bed is not good enough, as its pretty much rad-restricted in all senses. Of course, what one has to realize when reading Vapor's review is that in a BEST CASE SCENARIO the difference between Supreme HF and other blocks is XX, but that is because he can put out of the equation all other factors: the dissipation on his loop is hugely oversized.

You see, in your test-bench you can pretty much say that all the blocks perform the same (all data is so close you can't be sure who is on top), which means that for the same conditions as yours all of them will be equally fine. But, take in mind that Vapor's aproach is from a perspective in which the limiting factor is only the cpu block and nothing else. Yes, it is not a real life test as I don't think nobody has two triple rads + 3 pumps on its loop, but this is the only way of testing subjectively something.

@prava - I think you are not understanding the issue here. Jayhall's rad and the rest of his setup is not the limiting factor. If you look at his data you can tell that it's really the block that is limiting.

@Jayhall & Vapor - I have to say that you guys are hugely over-complicating this. If you want to get accurate reflection of the flow without any possible interference, the flow measuring setup should consist of a large reservoir, very short runs of tubing, pump, block, and flow meter. Nothing more, no rads, no side loops, no small reservoirs, etc. This is a kind of test that I would want to see for flow, and it's a kind of test that can be easily controlled. For example, if you define that your reservoir will be a gallon milk jug, pump will be DDC 3.2, you run approx. 4 feet of tubing with standard barbs (i.e., no aftermarket tops, angles, QDs, etc.), and a decent flow sensor you can easily reproduce this test anywhere consistently. Barring this kind of setup, you should be able to more or less control and measure your restriction in order to produce consistent results across different setups.
03-16-2010, 08:46 AM
century child

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinook

So plate #1 regardless of pump model used and/or rad. Thank you.

Yes, it would seem to be your best bet based upon Vapor's results. The temp difference between plates is not that large however so if you are worried more about flow, you could always use the stock #3 plate and get the best mixture of flow and temps.
03-16-2010, 10:23 AM
Ketzer7

As Eddy hinted:

http://www.ekwaterblocks.com/shop/me..._front_600.jpg

http://www.ekwaterblocks.com/shop/me..._front_600.jpg

Definitely changes the overall look. Congrats Eddy
03-16-2010, 10:23 AM
Church

Mhmm. You people say that from Supreme HF Full Coper even better performance can be expected? Day to go for it to be in stock if news are to be trusted :/
03-16-2010, 10:29 AM
Vapor

Whoa!
03-16-2010, 10:52 AM
scamps

:eek: :up:
03-16-2010, 11:06 AM
Sushi Warrior

How much difference between this and a Supreme LT? Speaking as a very budget-oriented user.
03-16-2010, 11:09 AM
voklskier4452

where can i buy that? do want.. nao!
03-16-2010, 11:23 AM
mbreslin

Is it worth getting the nickel/acetal block over an xt? (currently redoing loop) rad is pa120.4 with mcp355 in xspc bay res, blocks on the loop will be ek fc mb block and supreme hf

(when I say worth it I mean will the temp difference be more than 1c?, cost doesn't matter at all)

thanks.

edit: I'm placing an order for other stuff any minute so any help would be appreciated.
03-16-2010, 11:41 AM
Feklar

Looks great Eddy. Will these ship with plate #1 pre-installed?
03-16-2010, 11:54 AM
Sadasius

Quote:

Originally Posted by dejanh

@prava - I think you are not understanding the issue here. Jayhall's rad and the rest of his setup is not the limiting factor. If you look at his data you can tell that it's really the block that is limiting.

His data is very limited. What was the ambient temps? What was the water temps? Seriously I think his rad is the limiting factor because of how he has his rig setup and not what the rad can do in best case scenario. There is definitely not enough info to make an educated answer let alone a guess which is all I am doing considering the limited info. We do not even know if his fans are in push or pull and if it's taking ambient or if it's case air. We don't know if his rad is clean or if it looks like a cat tried to go through it.

@Eddy....Damn fine job on this block. Love the nickel!
03-16-2010, 11:59 AM
mbreslin

My post doesn't matter anymore I went ahead and bought it so :p
03-16-2010, 12:06 PM
dejanh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadasius

His data is very limited. What was the ambient temps? What was the water temps? Seriously I think his rad is the limiting factor because of how he has his rig setup and not what the rad can do in best case scenario. There is definitely not enough info to make an educated answer let alone a guess which is all I am doing considering the limited info. We do not even know if his fans are in push or pull and if it's taking ambient or if it's case air. We don't know if his rad is clean or if it looks like a cat tried to go through it.

@Eddy....Damn fine job on this block. Love the nickel!

The discussion is around the flow, not the temps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ketzer7

http://www.ekwaterblocks.com/shop/me..._front_600.jpg

Now we are talking. That's something I can use! Great job :up:
03-16-2010, 12:13 PM
Sadasius

Quote:

Originally Posted by dejanh

The discussion is around the flow, not the temps.

:doh: my bad!
03-16-2010, 12:15 PM
Vapor

I'm talking about both his temps and his flow....though his flow is the most egregiously off from mine and other reviewers. To me, that's indicating there's something different about his block....shallow channels are a really easy 'defect' to have occur in machining (and then also pass through QC). Shallower channels would lead to an increase in restriction (if you measure the Supreme and the Supreme HF's internals, the biggest difference is channel depth and it has a massive impact on restriction) and the trailing thermals.

The Supreme HF Cu is just sexy....wow. I'm rarely smitten with the looks of a CPU block but this one catches my eye a lot (and it drops the 'stale' look I complained about in the review).

Now how about a new mounting system? :p:
03-16-2010, 12:47 PM
prava

Quote:

Originally Posted by dejanh

The discussion is around the flow, not the temps.

Actually, judging by the flow difference between Vapor and Jayhall it may be exactly that what is causing the temperature difference: as they all get the same flow (which would mean they are equally restrictive) they get the same temperature but as the HF is less restrictive than other blocks it gets more flow = it performs better.

That is exactly what surprises me, that flow between all 4 blocks is within 7% when looking at other reviews that is clearly not the case.

Lets show a few graphs from different reviews:
http://www.pureoverclock.com/images/...emehf_flow.jpg

(in here it should be GPH not GPM)

http://www.awardfabrik.de/mambots/co...e4c5bbae55.jpg

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...ompareFlow.png

As you can see, all data shows more or less the same: the XT is, with difference, a hell more restrictive than Supreme HF and HK 3.0, more or less at the same level of the original Ek Supreme. So, obviously there is something wrong with Jayhall tests.

@Vapor: could you explain me how this can happen?

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...XT/XT22A13.png

How can It perform worse with more flow? Is it because of the heat the pumps add to the circuit?
03-16-2010, 12:51 PM
Vapor

Quote:

Originally Posted by prava

@Vapor: could you explain me how this can happen?

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...XT/XT22A13.png

How can It perform worse with more flow? Is it because of the heat the pumps add to the circuit?

Yup, those "Pump Heatdump Included" graphs can trend upward at higher flow when the heatdump of the pump outweighs the increase of block performance at the higher flowrate. In that chart, the heatdump is actually included 3 times (it's water temp + water to CPU delta + 3x[air to water delta]), meant to roughly show how a PA120.2 + 2000RPM fans would perform with the pumps required and the given flowrate.
03-16-2010, 01:10 PM
prava

But how can it be when you are running 2 x MCR320? The amount of heat the pumps add should be totally negligible, as the Delta would increase 0.2ºC which is nothing...

PS: nevermind, I didn't read the tytle "Typical radiator Ability"

PSS: but, how can It be? In the first graph you show 22ºC as air temp and in the second 25ºC as water temp, aren't you supposed to have a Delta of around 7ºC at that heat load, more or less?
03-16-2010, 01:17 PM
affiliate13

Ah.
I just found my new block.
Its such a simple, clean look. Just like the FC GPU blocks now i think of it.
When can we buy these please Eddy?

http://www.ekwaterblocks.com/shop/bl...ll-nickel.html
03-16-2010, 01:46 PM
Sadasius

Quote:

Originally Posted by prava

PSS: but, how can It be? In the first graph you show 22ºC as air temp and in the second 25ºC as water temp, aren't you supposed to have a Delta of around 7ºC at that heat load, more or less?

I have the same Delta all the time with two 240 GTX rads like the one in my sig. I find I cannot get any lower really as it is simply maxed out with these rads and fans. I can get just a hair under 3 degrees difference but that's with the fans on max at 6000 RPM. The closer you get toward ambient the harder it is to maintain that performance level. If you can manage 2 degree's delta between ambient and your water on load then you have either many rads or a couple awesome rads with nutty fans on blowing ridiculous air. I wanted a neat package so I went with the later design. I believe the order goes as follows;

Enthusiast is 3 degree's delta or under
Mainstream is between 7 and 3 degrees and finally
Beginner which is 7 and above and usually around 10 with a good beginner kit.
03-16-2010, 01:49 PM
Vapor

IIRC, I have a air to water delta of around 2.2-2.4C at low/normal pumping powers? With all 4 pumps running, it approaches 3C.

The "Typical Radiator Ability" graphs triple the air-water delta, so they'd be 6.75ish to 9ish, depending on the pumping power.
03-16-2010, 03:31 PM
justin.kerr

Vapor, in you opinion, which block do you think I would get better results on.

I have the EK HF, heat killer 3.0 and Swiftech XT here, my CPU loop is a 500 mm Bitspower res -- dual DDC 3.25's on XSPC dual top -- XSPC RX quad --- XSPC RX triple -- Feser triple -- CPU water block - EK full coverage MOBO block-- back to res. using Gentle typhoon 1850 RPM fans, that will be at 7 V for most usage.

I know it is a silly question because most would say, try it yourself and decide. lol But I do not have the equipment to test effectively enough to detect the minor differences between these block's performance.

CPU overclock is 4.5Ghz 1.4v HT on

I know either way it will be close, but lol it is nice to get that warm fuzzy feeling that I put the better performing block on, no matter how insignificant it is. :p:

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