Why no one should be shocked by The Pirate Bay verdict

difficult position here Speeder, to think right, and you think right, in a thread where the majority is all for piracy, piracy is legit hey guys ?

I went through a thread like this one about a year ago here @ XS, I won't bother this time.

As to the pirate bay guys, I won't either waste any time as to elaborate about the verdict, it's useless to talk with those who think "they should get it for free"...and all those capitalists are bastards, right ? My take ? one year in jail is nothing, just nothing compared to what they deserve. Also, if TPB was based in some other European countries, they would have been shut down long ago.

ps: Speeder, I find it rather great that you launched this thread, and spend time to respond to the various attacks, again and again, arguing very precisely about the details etc...:up:

edit: not very good news here:
http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=eN&ie=UTF-8

edit: the herds applause when Madoff is jailed, why don't they in the pirate bay case :D...I tell you why, because when robbery becomes wide spread, it sounds legit :D

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Originally Posted by Speederlander

No, some folks would rather have some guy or gal work hard to create a product and then appropriate the fruits of his/her labor without compensation.

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While this might be true in some cases, this type of argument is flawed when applied to all torrent-ed digital media.

First is the assumption that it is even possible for most around the world who use pirated software/files to compensate for what they ask. I remember when Vista was first released and it was first cracked in countries where, if you compared even the above-average salary of the population and the exchange rates, there is no way for 97.5% of the population to even afford Vista for what microsoft was asking. Its pretty simply psychology and economics that if a population is straight priced out of the option of even considering to buy, they find ways around the price barrier.

Additionally this argument cannot even be applied to music industry. As has been pointed out, the Major record labels have tremendous incentive to do everything in their power to keep the current outdated model purely out of their own self-interest.

Also, most people that download albums from major labels would never actually spend money on those albums. They simply wouldn't listen to them. Metallica is the great hypocrite. They never would have made it even close to as successful as they did if hordes of poor head banger teenagers of 1986 weren't copying their cassette tapes 100 times and passing them out to everyone they knew. No one would ever have heard of Metallica if people weren't freely passing out their music which is something they easily forget. During Master of Puppets and Ride the Lightning, NO ONE knew or cared about buying Metallica yet. Only through the few mavens being quite persistent in freely giving out Metallica music did people ever catch on to who they were.

There are serious flaws in the statistic collection models the major record labels use to allege that "people are spending less on music due to downloading". That is completely false.

What has happened is that music production, due to technological advances, has become completely democratized. People are spending just as much money on music, but that money is simply not going to major record labels.

The money is going to home studio producers, such as long time synth company Roland from Japan. The money is going to all the new digital music production software such as Reason, Logic, Pro Tools, Ableton and the huge selection of Virtual synths that are coming out. 30 years ago the original analog synth makers were all going out of business (Arp, Sequential Circuits, Octave, etc). Today there is a vibrant and very profitable market for the cutting edge music gear makers. One excellent example is the company Kurzweil that produced the most important digital sampling synth of the late 1990s (the K2000). The founder of Kurzweil, is a well known futurist whose written books on technology development such as The Singularity is Near.

On the commercial side, "small independent" record labels have grown to mid-size and greater status. For example, in 1989 there was no such label as Ninja Tune which is one of the biggest labels for downtempo breakbeats around the world. There are entire genres of music today (from Drum and Bass to Psytrance) that are popular from Europe to India and whose music is released through a variety of small to mid size labels that were not even in existence 25 years ago. The vast majority of the money in the electronica music industry has existed well outside the major labels except in a few cases (such as Prodigy or 808 State). Otherwise music has simply out-evolved the major recording labels' business and pop culture model. Kevin Kelly wrote on this long ago in New Rules for the New Economy which, while conventional economists have criticized over the years, still is quite relevant in certain cases such as music industry.

With kids able to make and produce music entirely in their homes. With a host of emerging small-mid size record labels, and a network that spans the globe, 1960 style major record labels are simply not necessary.

Its not that no one is buying music. Its just that with the proliferation of the Long Tail of digital economics making every niche market viable and the rise of entire areas of music (electronica) that evolved almost entirely outside of major label influence, the money being spent on "music" is being dispersed over a much greater number of people and companies that at any point in history.

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Originally Posted by Ghostwind

While this might be true in some cases, this type of argument is flawed when applied to all torrent-ed digital media.

First is the assumption that it is even possible for most around the world who use pirated software/files to compensate for what they ask...

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...so, when they can't afford it, we should let'em get it, right ? same should go for cars, coffee, houses and what else ?

When you cannot afford it, you are not entitled to ask for anything, period. You guys should go out in the street and beg for software, instead of hiding behind your keyboards. May be you get retail boxes from the regular customers when they come out of the shops :D

ps: this was not an attack directed at you personally GhostWind.

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Originally Posted by Logos

...so, when they can't afford it, we should let'em get it, right ? save should go for cars, coffee, houses and what else ?

When you cannot afford it, you are not entitled to ask for anything, period. You guys should go out in the street and beg for software, instead of hiding behind your keyboards. May be you get retail boxes from the regular customers when they come out of the shops :D

ps: this was not an attack directed at you personally GhostWind.

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I understand logos and I get your point. It does have merit in certain context. But to clarify some things,

I was not arguing people 'should' do these things. I am noting that regardless of what behavior people in relatively rich nations believe everyone should do (France and USA for instance), people in poor nations simply have a different psychological and economic incentives than the rich nations.

Its not that it is "morally justified" that Iranians will crack Windows. Its that it is simply going to happen irrespective of whatever moral outlook people have.

The economic reality is such that if a population have the ability to crack an application but no ability to pay for the application, what else are they going to do?

Not saying its right but it is reality and human nature.


In pure argument structure this is similar to nuclear weapons production of nations/

It is logically in the interest of every nation with nukes to not want any new nation to develop nukes and pass policy to prevent any other country having nukes.

Yet it is logically valid and in the interest of every nation without nukes to develop nukes irrespective of what the Nuclear Club dictates.

agreed with your last post; but don't forget we also have to deal with thousands of kids born and brought up in rich countries, and pirating on a regular basis, and finding it "normal". The poor countries issue in this context is more complex, and I wouldn't use for them the tough words I use for the others. Even if regulation is needed there too, and there are ways, through education, low cost products etc...

http://www.pcworld.com/article/16370...as_biased.html

Cant beat a good bit of corruption in the judicial system....

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Originally Posted by Speederlander

Where have I ever said no one makes any money? Please be specific. Feel free to review my entire bleepin' posting history. Find the quote where I say no one makes any money and post it up.

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Well if they're not losing money to the point of causing their downfall then they must be doing pretty good :up:

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Contrary to what? That made up comment you invented or some other odd interpretation of my positions?

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Contrary to your previous posts implying indy/home development is dead. In fact is it rising in popularity.

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No, some folks would rather have some guy or gal work hard to create a product and then appropriate the fruits of his/her labor without compensation.

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And who would that be?

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Originally Posted by Speederlander

Fact is, you provided perfect examples of games with every reason not pirate and support the game developer. They meet all the criteria of good games. And yet they get reamed like all the rest. Why? Because it's easier to get them for free. You can't compete with free. :shrug:

So yeah, the flawed market is "bad", capitalism is evil. Blah blah blah.

Note dan here,

Sounds a lot like those people on pirate bay doesn't it?

It's easy. It's free. And he deserves it. He's entitled to free stuff.

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NAR I USE PRIVATE TRACKERS

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Originally Posted by Russian

The record companies are the only ones really fighting for this. Why? Because... they are the middlemen. They can only make their money if they sell records. They dont get nearly as much money from concerts or apparel or anything outside of records. So they will push this model to the ends of the earth. They are attempting to force us to enjoy our music and pay ridiculous prices for it. Especially when most musicians just want their music to be heard and enjoyed. Plenty of musicians nowadays do concert tours more often in order to make more money. The days of simply selling albums is over. If you are a true artist, and not some fabrication of the record studios, then you can be successful regardless of how much you make. The real key here is... even if all the record companies disappear we will still have music and musicians. We really dont need them in this modern age.

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Indeed. Actually, I don't know how are things going in your respective countries.. but I can say thay in my country, Spain, everything is getting too crazy, and I'm afraid it will get a loooooooooooot worse. Lets see:

a) In Spain, "sharing" copyrighted material is not ilegal at all, unless somebody is making benefit from it. Right now they are checking a little bit more the torrent sites that have advertising on them...but even though they aren't closing anything.
b) You have the right to make a private copy for yourself, in order to protect the original (you know, a cd gets damaged within time no matter how careful you are) copy.

You may think that we got crazy, but that is just half truth. I know many things about the record business because my father has been selling music for more than 25 years (he closed his shop a year ago due to the lack of benefit), and I totally understand why people in Spain doesn't buy legal copies when:
a) We have one of the lowest wages in europe
b) Even though a), music (electronics, and so on), are more expensive here than other countries where wages are pretty higher. Why? No idea.

And, to end, somebody was soooooooooo intelligent within the government that they decided that as everybody was using copyrighted material without paying its fees...everybody will have to pay fees in order to get digital stuff, like:
a) CD-R, DVD-R, HDD's, cd and dvd burners
b) Anything that can copy anything with copyright (photocopier, scanner...)
c) Anything that can be used to storage copyrighet material (pendrives, ipods, mobile phones..)
d) Anything that will get you those copyrighted materiales (internet access, and so on).
It's so crazy that you have to pay it no matter what you do. No matter if you are a lawyer and use everything for your own and private use, you pay it. No matter if it is the local government, you pay. It's getting so full of crap that everyday that goes by I do two things:
a) Buying stuff outside spain
b) Not buying original stuff.

It's crazy that if talk about dvd-r and cd-r the fees are like 3-4x the prize of the dvd-r, totally hilarious.


On the other side...
World is going to change in many, many aspects. I totally understand why a good medical doctor wins $500.000 a year, I do. He saves lives, If you want the best, you pay for it. But...how is that a sucky musician wins a looooooot more than that? Because he is famous? Because he deserves it? That's crap all around, so crappy that they MAY have started it for pleasure...but they ended doing it for money (how many albums are good from the start till the end? How many have just two hits on them and all the other stuff is bearly audible? Most). And thats is deffinitely NOT art. I'm a classical musican, I play for pleasure (there is NOTHING such as the experience of making people cry when they hear you, NOTHING, It's the fulfeeling that makes you see everything different) and did enough money to be deffinitely worth it (although most of the concerts I done were for free and music was done as a side job). It's the same for electronical music: the best dj's win a fortune, but even though they sell records, there is nothing such a live concert, and they make HUGE money from them (best djs can win up to $30-$40.000 a night). Everybody can make a good recording, lets see how many can stand a good live concert (a few).

Besides, a part from music, there are any other stuff. Most of the games I own are original...but that stuff is changing. Why? It's hilarious, when you buy a game, most of them are a pain in the ass altogether, if the game works properly (which is something not many games can tell), you may waste like 5 hours trying to figure out what's wrong with...if it ever works. Then we've got securom, DRM and all that crap... crap that only hurt those that buy the original. How is that it's easier to install and play a game you downloaded without paying a penny rather than buying the original? It's incredible, not only the sell malfunctioning stuff (talk about Stalker?) but they give you a hell of a time when PAYING for something. For gods sake, I had to use downloaded games because my original one never ever worked...