new TIM king???

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Originally posted by sjohnson
Two things - the experiment was done with distilled water, onto the shaved necks of immobilized rats. One drop/second for (IIRC) 180 days. I believe that the irritation factor would be the most likely cause of the cancer. My point is that *anything, misused* can be hazardous and/or dangerous. Conversely, anything used properly and carefully will have little likelyhood of causing harm.

And, I certainly do empathize. Why is where I live so "good"? It's a well kept secret :D :D

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Fascinating. In my readings in physiological psychology, and zoology (which is actually used quite often to support anthropological data) it's widely held that prolonged exposure to stress (which is a phsioligical process, in the brian, and nervous system) manifests itself as cancer. Can you link me to that article?

I wonder if I could use PCM+ safely, as hair gel/die? Would it allow the 70% of body heat which escapes through the cranium, to "dissipate" more rapidly? Plus blue hair is in style still?


:wierd:

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Originally posted by Liquid3D
Fascinating. In my readings in physiological psychology, and zoology (which is actually used quite often to support anthropological data) it's widely held that prolonged exposure to stress (which is a phsioligical process, in the brian, and nervous system) manifests itself as cancer. Can you link me to that article?

I wonder if I could use PCM+ safely, as hair gel/die? Would it allow the 70% of body heat which escapes through the cranium, to "dissipate" more rapidly? Plus blue hair is in style still?


:wierd:

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Yeah, you probably could - and it might provide a slight blue tint... Better off using it on your CPU and HSF, though ;)

Nanotherm - waiting for your final answer/confirmation/whatever ;)

No article link to give you, the study was done at Iowa State U. sometime in the 70's or 80's. My Psychology prof at the time read from the research paper.

Another story of interest - at that same time an undergrad could pick up some money by participating in psych research.

I took part in a study, purportedly a study of pain response. We (the participants) sat in a chair with the researcher present with a nurse. We were shown a fine, glowing hot platinum probe that was to be briefly touched onto the back of our neck, above the hair line (so any scar wouldn't show). Wired with electrodes connected to a machine, the machine was to register our physiological response to the brief pain.

The probe was actually ice, switched from the probe on application. According to the prof, 5% of the study participants developed a blister from the "burn" :D

Ergo why I study Neurophilosophy/science. And what many people don't realize, the modern computer is currently the best model we have for Cognitive research. As it's impossible to slice someone's brain during such and such a thought process, to emprically verify the exact neurophysiological processes occuring; we employ a multitude of other disciplines to understand those processes.

The PC and the human brain are remarkably similiar. For example. Both are electrical devices, which at their foundation utilize millions (billions in the Brain) of "electronic switches." Both operate on a binary system (digital). Every thought, every dream, every memory, and every feeling (c-fiber pain-state) is but a specific brain state. That is to say billions of synapes are either firing, or lie dormant (on/off = binary) the firing is a tiny electrical charge (synaptic cleft = NMOS/PMOS). Both are capcitance switches like the NMOs/PMOS, and remain charged. Both run hot approximately 39C. (He he; had to stay on topic somewhat) Except you shouldn't lap your skull (at least with coarser then 600-grit).

Both the brain, and the PC require a rudimentary set of instructions to operate. In the brain this is known as the Pineal body, pituitary gland, hypothalamus, thyroid, parathyroid. In the PC the BIOS. Both require a operating system to interpret and abstract data. In the PC this is the OS. In humans this is known as UG = Universal Grammer or the LAD. These are innate neuro-biological devices universal to all humans, which contains a basic set of instructions for language formation LAD= Language Acquisition Device.
"All languages are complex computational systems employing the same basic kinds of rules and representations, with no notable correlation with technological progress: the grammars of industrial societies are no more complex than the grammars of hunter-gatherers; Modern English is not an advance over Old English. Within societies, individual humans are proficient language users regardless of intelligence, social status, or level of education. Children are fluent speakers of complex grammatical sentences by the age of three, without benefit of formal instruction. They are capable of inventing languages that are more systematic than those they hear, showing resemblances to languages that they have never heard, and they obey subtle grammatical principles for which there is no evidence in their environments."
This is why any child can be raised in any culture (language) and since the LAD (Language Aquisition Device) begins to unfold immediately, once they begin to hear (process), they aquire the grammer, and syntax (often without knowing the semantics (hence proof of the LAD)) specifc to that language. And of course, Language = thought. In the PC this is simliar to the Operating System's kernel, (albeit Windows, Linux , etc).
Both the PC and Human memory begin their processing life as a tabula rasa or blank slate. We begin to grow based on those first experiences which are "wrtten" to memory and form our personal Mosaic. In PC this is akin to writing to the Hard Drive, and creating Partitions for different types of instructions, and data.

Both require "peripherials" (five senses/keyboard, microphone/digital camera) to gather and convert information from the external world (external to the brain, external to the PC) into eletrical saignals, or basic binary data. both require complex visual processing, audio processing systems, (prima facie) to interpret specific physical (light, sound, etc) information from the environment around them. Both use long, and short term memory. Both are capable of abstaction, and require a symbolic logic to process information. Both are computational based on connectionistic systems, employing parallel distributive processing. In humans it's intellectual growth, wisdom, learning etc. In PC's it is any software such as PDP itself.

It is for these reasons AI, and Cognitive Science have evolved concurrently. Semantics, and Linguistics are as important to Cognitive Science as Neurochemistry, or Physiologicalpsychology. We owe a lot to Noam Chomsky, BF Skinner, D.H. Armstrong, Hilarly Putnum, and Thomas Nagel. If you want to read some truly interesting essays, infued with humor, and creative writing, as well being highly technical. Read any of latter three authors. An essay known as "What it is Like to be a Bat?" by Thomas P. Nagel, is excellent.

Sorry for the OFF TOPIC everyone.

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Originally posted by Friar Tuck
Does anyone in Australia sell this Nanotherm PCM?


I'd like to try some out too.. :)



FT.

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http://www.technomancer.com.au/

Thanks Frag.. I'm going to try out some different pastes with the Vapochills here, and see how they go.. it should be interesting.. :)

I'll see if I can snag some of this Nanotherm stuff too, and include it in my testing.

I want to also try various pastes / compounds with the Asetek Waterchill units.


FT.

I'm still leaning twards using bubble gum as a TIM, it has always worked well for me. Application is such a PITA though.

lol.

Correct me if im wrong, but didnt people have good results with Radio shack thermal compund because they were using the same compund as Nanotherm? I remember hearing something like that.

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Originally posted by KennethChong
lol.

Correct me if im wrong, but didnt people have good results with Radio shack thermal compund because they were using the same compund as Nanotherm? I remember hearing something like that.

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What? Huh?

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Originally posted by Friar Tuck
Thanks Frag.. I'm going to try out some different pastes with the Vapochills here, and see how they go.. it should be interesting.. :)


I'll see if I can snag some of this Nanotherm stuff too, and include it in my testing.

I want to also try various pastes / compounds with the Asetek Waterchill units.


FT.

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I've posted this many, many times already - but I'll do it again, just so everybody knows. Nanotherm PCM+ is only recommended for 'standard temperature' water and air cooling applications. The Nanotherm PCM+ is a "Phase Change Material" - and PCMs have a defined "melt-and-freeze" range they work well in. Nanotherm works optimally at thermal junction temps above 30'C. Therefore, the PCM+ is NOT recommended for use in subzero temp watercooling apps. Nanotherm Silver XTC and Blue II work very well at low temps, though.

If you (or anyone else) is interested in knowing why that is, I have written numerous posts about it. If you contact me directly via pm - I would be pleased to explain it personally :)

Scott, I think he was just kidding !

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Originally posted by Major Slaughter
Scott, I think he was just kidding !

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God, I hope so - particularly since he's an "Xtreme Member!"

Overclock with the Rolls Royce philosophy...machine surfaces SOOOO precise....that TIM is unecessary! :D
C

KIdding about what?? The Radio Shack TIM?? It's no joke...look at DoGMan's review, RS TIM is top notch, just a couple tic's behind the best.
C

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Originally posted by charlie
Overclock with the Rolls Royce philosophy...machine surfaces SOOOO precise....that TIM is unecessary! :D
C

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Charlie,

Neither you or anyone else on this planet can afford to make a surface "SOOOO precise" that a TIM wouldn't be necessary. Trust me on this one, because if you don't, I'm going call you out and make you prove me wrong :)

:rolleyes:
Gosh....you're too serious. I was just kidding!


:stick:

C

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Originally posted by Nanotherm

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Sorry, I was aware of the limitations of the PCM+ for sub-zero work..
My aim was the testing of the Waterchill [watercooled] units with PCM+ which operate in the temp range of 35-50+ deg. C.

I will look into getting some if possible.. and some of the Blue11 for the Vapo's.


Thanks,


FT.

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Originally posted by charlie
KIdding about what?? The Radio Shack TIM?? It's no joke...look at DoGMan's review, RS TIM is top notch, just a couple tic's behind the best.


C

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Charlie,

Do you believe everything that you read?

If you would like me to point out the major shortcomings of this review and tell you how the testing should have been done, then pm me and we'll discuss the finer points between us.

Friar Tuck,

35 - 50'+C is fine. The PCM+ will work optimally in that range. Now, if your talking below zero 'C, then the Blue II and XTC would be a much better choices for evaluation purposes.

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Originally posted by Nanotherm
Charlie - dude,

Do you believe everything that you read?

If you would like me to point out the major shortcoming of this review and completely invalidate 3000 hours of work that DoGMaN put into this review, then pm me and we'll discuss the finer points between us. I won't do this publicly.

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Nano-Boy,
I personally don't care :D
IMO, the difference between 35C and 32C is no big deal. If you're serious you freeze the cpu. -42C or -45C, ok what's the deal?
Here's my theory...Nanothim works well because of it's watery consistency. This assures almost perfect application. If you allow a Arctic Silver engineer (or technician or whatever) to apply their product I'm sure it would perform CLOSE to any competitor. It's all about application.
And as for DogMans review, here is why it's relevant: He performed the tests like an overclocker...which we all are...
and reported results. If it really makes you feel better, please recall I said
"RS TIM is top notch, just a couple tic's behind the best."
I don't think anyone could dispute this (think "couple tic's")
Better place to put energy...tell everyone about how easy your product is to apply, instead of being so nasty.
C

Charlie - dude,

Who's being nasty?

Look, you're an "Xtreme Addict", which means you've been around the block on the forum here and you understand some things that others don't. Maybe there are still some things you need to learn though. Maybe not. Maybe you already know it all.

I'm not going to question what you know or what you don't know. What you do know is enough to be dangerous. When an "Xtreme Addict" says things - people who are "lower" in the ranks do 'listen' to your advice, whether you know it or not.

Therefore, you have a level of responsibility to the other forum members - who are moving up in the ranks - to provide them with good, solid information so they can understand things better and formulate a reasonably correct line of thinking based on your knowledge and experience.

Someone else's thoughts, observations and conclusion are just that - THEIR thoughts, observations and conclusions. That doesn't make it Gospel, though, and you know that already.

You've got some "spunk" and I like that, so I'd appreciate it if you would contact me via pm and I'll explain to you how a PC-based thermal compound test SHOULD be done in a reasonable proper fashion - one that will produce pretty accurate results (despite the inherent inaccuracies of PC temp sensors and monitoring software). If you're game, I'll send you samples of each of our TIMs to test against our competitors' TIMs (sorry, can't help you with samples of those ;) ) and you can report YOUR results back to this forum. The choice is yours.

I'm really not a bad guy - and several people on this forum can attest that fact. I just get 'spun up' sometimes when "ranked" forum members make erroneous comments.

So, how would like to do a TIM evaluation like no one's done before? Contact me and we'll talk more about it, if you're interested.

:cool:

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Originally posted by Nanotherm
...PCM+ is NOT recommended for use in subzero temp watercooling apps. Nanotherm Silver XTC and Blue II work very well at low temps, though....If you (or anyone else) is interested in knowing why that is, I have written numerous posts about it. If you contact me directly via pm - I would be pleased to explain it personally :)

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I'm sure it's not recommended for Phase Change, because of it's dialectic properties at low temps. As you've said earlier, If your thinking of re-applying, or changing out PCM+. It should be removed directly after shutting down the PC do to it's "wax" like properties once it cools...

Just as 3M's Flourinert Heat Transfer fluids are remarkable for their ability to remain stable. Some retain their liquid form (FC-43) from -50C to 174C! I'd been researching these types of materials prior to getting my Prometeia. I'd even sent some info from 3M's site to Morten Esperon at Chip-Con. I don't think it's (Flourinert) applicable for Phase-change, because of it's extreme dialectic strength (in other words, it practically never boils). However as a safe "cold immersion" technique, wow. Flourinert FC-70 has a boiling point of 215C :slobber: and is a material which an entire motherboard with CPU, and memory can be immersed in, and tested "hot"! Flourinert FC-70's dialectic properties (stable from -25C to 215C) actually make it ideal for radical "submersive" cooling. e.g. (from 3M)
"The high boiling point of Fluorinert liquid FC-70 (215°C) and its excellent heat transfer properties make it an ideal fluid for use in high temperature thermal management applications. Also, its high dielectric constant means it will not damage electronic equipment or semiconductor wafers in the event of a leak or other failure.
FC-70 liquid is chemically stable, compatible with sensitive materials, nonflammable and practically non-toxic...The high dielectric strength and wide liquid range (-25°C to 215°C) of Fluorinert liquid FC-70 make it an ideal liquid for use in electronic reliability testing. Components may be tested both physically and electronically while immersed in this non-conductive liquid. In addition, tested devices dry quickly with no residue, and require no post-test cleaning."

Imagine filling a water-tight freezer full of Flourinert FC-70, dropping the temp to -20C, and completely submerging your motherboard, CPU, memory, and graphics card? Of course removing the CPU-HSF, NB-HSF, and Videocard's HSF there-by exposing all silicon. I'd keep the HDD. PSU etc. out of the bath. Then simply OVERCLOCK! All the circuitry would be chiiled to -20c (or so). CPU, NB/SB (all micro-chips) resistors, Voltage-regulators, Mosfets, etc. Now that's radical overclocking. had I the money, and room I'd would have done it last year! I should email Holchio, he'd probably try it.
:D

BTW Charlie I must concur with Nanotherm. Being a friend I almost was gong to "come to your aid", but I have to admit Nanotherm, has been pretty good about putting their product on the line. That's an offer you won't see on many (any) forums. I wrote nanotherm about a month ago and got some samples. I'm finishing up three articles right now and one discusses their PCM+. I have to say, the terminology on the bottle may be somewhat confusing to a FEW people. The reason they've chosen to name it PCM, is the primary reason i'm writing about it. It's unique in being the ONLY phase-change TIM on the market (that I know off) and I have to applaud Nanotherm for their innovative thinking. PCM does what it says, which is why I now better understand it's consistency. My very rudimentary, crude definition would be; it's a wax-like substance in which sort of "liquid" resides. This liquid may actually "boil" changing phase, and the wax-like substance keeps it from evaporating, by creating some sort of "seal." I don't know how close I am, but I upon close inspection I see an (oily) liquid, which must undergo the Phase-change (dissipating the heat from the IHS to HS). And a blue (paraffin type) material which allows the phase-change to occur, and re-occur.

A couple of NZ blokes did this a few years ago.. :)

It worked ok, but was only a step towards LN2 cooling at that time, i remember.


Interesting stuff though.. :)


FT.

Keep reading the various threads on this Forum. There may be some new and interesting things coming up in the world of "subzero" water-cooling very soon (hint, hint) ;)