AMD expects Barcelona to be 40% faster than Clovertown!

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Originally Posted by onewingedangel

Barcelona may be 40% faster than cloverton, but the 45nm generation will be clocked 40% higher, not to mention the extra cache etc. so any advantage will be gone within a short period of time.

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well we know none of this for sure , but time will tell

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Originally Posted by onewingedangel

Barcelona may be 40% faster than cloverton, but the 45nm generation will be clocked 40% higher, not to mention the extra cache etc. so any advantage will be gone within a short period of time.

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umm how many times does it have to be said 40% more speed isn't 40% more performance.

It's not a truly linear increase, but performance does scale almost linearly with clocks assuming there aren't any IO bottlenecks. The extra cache (50% extra) should mean that the FSB is no more of a bottleneck than at present, so any bottlenecks would be those of the execution core itself, but compared to conroe they will still feature the same percentage of branch misses etc, they'll just get through the cycles quicker.

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Originally Posted by onewingedangel

Barcelona may be 40% faster than cloverton, but the 45nm generation will be clocked 40% higher, not to mention the extra cache etc. so any advantage will be gone within a short period of time.

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They will NEVER be able to scale that thing so hihg right away with 45nm, which is probably because of the power comsumption. The QX6700 is at 125W TDP and uses the full wattage of it, it just sucks if you look at the power it draws (so does AMD's FX's, but they're old) if they make 45nm parts with a voltage of 1.2 or 1.15 and clock it 40% higher, that would make for another 15-20% increase in TDP. I highly doubt they would be so stupid to realease a 150W TDP product... AMD though is stating that their Q-core will have a 95W TDP which is quite nice... let's just hope they keep each other going!!! :toast:

Whenever I see POS, I think "Point of Sale", which in this case doesn't make sense. For shame.

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Originally Posted by josty2

They will NEVER be able to scale that thing so hihg right away with 45nm, which is probably because of the power comsumption. The QX6700 is at 125W TDP and uses the full wattage of it, it just sucks if you look at the power it draws (so does AMD's FX's, but they're old) if they make 45nm parts with a voltage of 1.2 or 1.15 and clock it 40% higher, that would make for another 15-20% increase in TDP. I highly doubt they would be so stupid to realease a 150W TDP product... AMD though is stating that their Q-core will have a 95W TDP which is quite nice... let's just hope they keep each other going!!! :toast:

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a 3.66ghz part (333x11) should be doable within current TDP's, possibly even a 3.8ghz part(intel will be able to use half multi's with their 45nm chips, to help remove the huge difference in clockspeed throughout the range whilst maintaining the same ammount of sku's). With selective binning it would probably be possible on the 65nm process. A 4ghz part is not outside the realms of possibility for the 45nm process. It all depends on how tightly intel want to bin (look at amd's current 3ghz parts to see just how much you can push the binning process if need be).

Not to mention the potential overclocking (with the associated increase in TDP).

AMD saying that they will be 40% better than cloverton (in some applications) more than likely means they will remain semi-competitive, but certainly doesn't mean k8l will be the better product, in fact I'd argue the opposite. BUt until we have these chips in our hands and have some conclusive benches this is all idle speculation.

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Originally Posted by Growly

Whenever I see POS, I think "Point of Sale", which in this case doesn't make sense. For shame.

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Does journey consistency constraints ring a bell, too?

I'm not saying that 45nm will clock 40% better than 65nm - there are still huge reserves in the 65nm process, but intel aren't tapping into them. Two of the main reasons are firstly not to fragment their product range by having core2's that range greatly far too greatly in power (which the half multi's will help - allows core clock differences of 166mhz when using a 1333fsb, so the market can be positioned more like merom with smaller jumps in performance when moving up the sku's) and secondly there is no need to strictly bin the products when they already handily outperform amd when they don't raise the clocks (which k8l will help with). Intel have announced they plan to clock the 45nm core2 in the 3.6-4ghz range, so they clearly have the intention of moving core clocks higher across the range.

The 45nm chips could be clocked 40% higher than the 65nm chips, in part because of the process, and in part because of greater competition between the two big cpu companies encouraging stricter performance binning.

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Originally Posted by brentpresley

E6700 is 65W
http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...px?sSpec=SL9S7

Did you mean Q6700? (can't find offical TDP for this on intel's site yet)

I agree with your analysis of the performance K8L vs. C2D :eek: Until Intel adopts a better FSB, they will be limited to 1/2 sockets in the server arena.

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Intel is adopting a better fsb, by using Nehalem architecture no? "The chip will have 8MB of shared L2 cache, simultaneous multi-threading (the ability to execute two threads per core,) support for Intel's Common System Interface, and an integrated memory controller." Just have to wait until 2008?

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Originally Posted by josty2

They will NEVER be able to scale that thing so hihg right away with 45nm, which is probably because of the power comsumption. The QX6700 is at 125W TDP and uses the full wattage of it, it just sucks if you look at the power it draws (so does AMD's FX's, but they're old) if they make 45nm parts with a voltage of 1.2 or 1.15 and clock it 40% higher, that would make for another 15-20% increase in TDP. I highly doubt they would be so stupid to realease a 150W TDP product... AMD though is stating that their Q-core will have a 95W TDP which is quite nice... let's just hope they keep each other going!!! :toast:

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I can't believe you mentioned C2Q and QFX in the same sentence when speaking of power consumption.

http://www.lostcircuits.com/cpu/amd_quadfx/prime952.gif

IMO it's every bit as likely that C2Q will clock 40% higher on 45nm process with 100% performance scaling as it is that Barcelona will be 40% faster than C2Q clock for clock. ;)

BTW, where did you get 95W from? Barcelona has a TDP of 125W at some as yet undisclosed clock speed. Are you talking about AMD's 45nm quads, dual core Altairs or some lower clocked EE versions?

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Originally Posted by LOE

AMD aim to launch K8L at about 3Ghz

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http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?tid=709944
2.5GHz is the latest number.

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Originally Posted by red

http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?tid=709944
2.5GHz is the latest number.

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don't bother trying to reason with him: He's so far lost into believing everything he hears from fanboys at AMDzone that he won't listen. For the last time, AMD talking about 40% preformance increase is worse than useless as news, because no third party has done a benchmark. AMD's idea of a demonstration is TASKMANAGER, for crying out loud! When I see an Xbitlabs review of K8L, I'll believe that. same for penryn. I hear a lot of claims about preformance from different manufactures, and so far, they are about half as reliable as the inq.
Everyone Hyped up conroe before it's launch because there were leaked benches, and AMD knows this. IMHO, since I don't beleive AMD is stupid, I think that either A) they don't have ES chips yet, which is bad news, or B) Barcelona isn't QUITE at the intel C2Q+40% mark just yet. Time will tell

Agreed, its all hot air but I really hope there is some truth though the big question is how well will it scale ???, I very much doubt as well as C2D going by previous efforts :fact:

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Originally Posted by Hector Ruiz

"All of our issues in pricing were related to the server segment," CEO Hector Ruiz told investors on the earnings call. "We're making plans to adjust to that for at least the first two quarters of the year. We think that will begin to change as we introduce our new architecture in the summer."

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Straight from the horse's mouth: K8L will be out this Summer. July I presume.

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Originally Posted by lapdog

Straight from the horse's mouth: K8L will be out this Summer. July I presume.

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rumors say Barcelona will be in the streets by May (or mid April if things go well).

Randy Allen confirms(yet again) the April-May time froame for Barcelona's arrival!

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AMD (AMD) remains confident that the quad-core Barcelona chip for enterprise servers, due at the middle of this year, will deliver a 40 percent performance boost over what's available today – an advantage Intel (INTC) won't be able to match.

I had lunch on Tuesday with Randy Allen, AMD's corporate vice president for servers and workstations, and had a wide-ranging talk about the status of AMD's server business and competition with Intel. Undeterred by the disappointing financial results AMD announced that day, Allen made some bold statements about the company's upcoming quad-core server chip. Here are some key points from our conversation:

* AMD gains in 2006 chip rankings

* AMD will begin shopping the Barcelona chip around to customers in the April-June time frame (so, in about three months).
* Allen thinks Barcelona's advances in virtualization and power management (and other technologies) are so significant that to compete, Intel will have to significantly change its front side bus or micro-architecture – no simple task.
* AMD decided two years ago to pursue the current Barcelona strategy, even though it would take six months longer than other options and Intel would almost surely come to market with a quad-core product first. (Intel did, with Clovertown.) AMD believes its quad-core Barcelona design is far more efficient, and that customers will notice.
* AMD is hopeful that customers are holding off on purchasing Intel's quad-core product, released in November, based on the fact that Intel didn't say much about it in its most recent earnings call. Yesterday, however, CNET quoted a Mercury Research analyst saying Intel's Clovertown chip is already contributing a meaningful amount of business to Intel.
* Allen said Q4 2007 will be when the first real impact of Barcelona comes through in AMD's financial statements. I noted that if the chip does well, it will provide very flattering comparable sales figures to the Q4 results AMD announced this week, which were short of Wall Street's expectations.
* Barcelona will have healthy margins, Allen predicted – AMD seems confident that because it will provide such a performance advantage over Intel, price competition won't be as intense.
* While he doesn't expect customer uptake to be as quick as the shift from single- to dual-core, Allen said because AMD has made it easy for customers to drop the quad-core solution into their existing equipment, customer acceptance will be rapid and broad-based.
* Allen downplayed the significance of Intel's partnership announcement with Sun Microsystems (SUNW) on Monday. Though he admitted that AMD liked being Sun's exclusive provider of x86 chips, he said it seemed to him that the partnership was more about getting Intel to back Solaris than it was about selling a whole lot of servers. He also said this doesn't mean AMD won't still see Sun as a great customer.

My take: Chip makers are, without exception, confident about their upcoming products – so I take everything Allen said with a grain of salt. Still, Allen laid down some very specific claims and projections, particularly the 40 percent performance boost. (When I pressed him on what exactly that 40 percent includes, it was slightly less clear; he mentioned a number of metrics, including performance per watt.)

* The future of password security: no easy answers

Also, it is obviously in AMD's interest to drum up customer curiosity about Barcelona, in hopes that some will hold off on purchasing Intel's quad-core offering, and at least do an Intel/AMD bake-off later this year.

Is Allen's confidence in Barcelona warranted, or is it an attempt to spread anti-Intel FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt)? Time will tell.

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http://blogs.business2.com/utilitybe...rimming_w.html

I guess this won't be enough for some so tehy will say it is probably April-June of 2008 :D.Oh well... :)

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Originally Posted by LOE

I have a very good feeling there will be plenty of K8L chips to review on the 1st of April :)

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I agree AMD are no fools ;), they have to get that chip out ASAP...

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Originally Posted by LOE

The title of this thread is stupid, they said it will be UP TO 40% faster in different situations, that means <=40%, and now it is writen as it will be 40% faster in each and every app

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Randy Allen,AMD's corporate vice president for server and workstation products said: "We expect across a wide variety of workloads for Barcelona to outperform Clovertown by 40 percent."
1. I can't find the "UP TO" part in Allen's statement.
2. "wide variety" doesn't mean "different situations".

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Originally Posted by LOE

so if we follow gOJDO's logic and multiply 3Ghz by 1.4 that equals to 4.2

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How by my logic a 3GHz K8L will perform like a 4.2GHz C2D?

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Originally Posted by gOJDO

AMD better be serious about these claims!
If this is true, then Barcelona is much more advanced then AMD previosly published.

IMO AMD is only making big smoke. Sooner or latter, we'll find out

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Originally Posted by gOJDO

Charlie thinks that K8L vs Penryn will be a clear win for Penryn! So do I.

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Originally Posted by gOJDO

I agree with you. If K8L is a 3 issue core then it has no theoretical chances to perform 40% faster than Clovertown. Not even close to that number.
IMO clock for clock, K8L will perform similar like Core2. One will be marginaly faster than the other. According to the data and the logical speculations, I think that Penryn will be faster clock for clock than K8L.

Penryn will be clocked much higher than K8L and it will clearly outperform K8L CPUs on platforms with 1 or 2 CPUs.
K8L will dominate on MP platforms with 4 or more CPUs.
I think that Server is the market where AMD will place thier bets with K8L.
The desktop/workstation market will be owned by Intel.

Anyway, Allen claimed that K8L will be 40% faster than Clovertown. So, I think that I should'nt change the topic of this thread.

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So, what's your problem dude? Are you blind or what?

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Originally Posted by LOE

Suddenly a lot of people start seeing into the future, so certain....

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Oh, yeah, you are right.

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Originally Posted by LOE

AMD aim to launch K8L at about 3Ghz

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1-24-2007, 02:52 PM

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Originally Posted by LOE

K8L is to be launched H2 2007 at about 3 Ghz, but if amd can make it earlier and with higher clocks I don't see a reason not to

Right now AMD is very capacity limited, but they will start making K8L chips in small quantities, so they can have enough chips for the launch in the late summer. As far as I know the first K8L tapeout was pretty bad due to imature process, but the second one will follow the latest rev G tapeout - so no more process problems, core problems are minimal and detected on the chips from the first tape out. The second K8L tapeout will be somewhere in january and should be production ready

K8L is supposed to be 40% faster clock for clock than K8, that makes is 20% faster than core, and also SiGe is reported to allow up to 40% improvement in transistor performance

do the math - 40% smaller process + 40% more IPC + 40% faster transistors

also keep in mind more cache, 100% faster IO and MC (HT3 and dualX128 MCs)

another thing - K8L won't have any of the bottlenecks kentsfield has

I don't think that process is that important - a single core 130nm K8 would beat 65nm single core pentium and offer similar power characteristics

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11-28-2006, 06:42 AM

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Originally Posted by LOE

you could also buy a quad socket amd server and get intel 32nm chip performance

A year from now AMD will offer 3 times more cache, two times faster IO bus, and a much more efficient MC than intel could possibly design. DDR3 won't be much of a help as core arch is not that ram dependent. K8L will also support SSE4

You are missing some points, K8L will not only be 4 issue, but will double cache interface and prefetch, FPU units and SSE units also get double

c2d is also 4 issue, but features only one complex decoder

I don't know how well will K8L scale and what freqs it will hit, but I must tell you that I find SiGe quite interesting, it will surely take AMD some time to master it, but SiGe has great potential and is well known to high frequency chip makers.

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11-28-2006, 08:05 AM

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Originally Posted by LOE

So if even K8L features only 3 compex decoders, which is something that is to be seen, it will still be superior to C2D when it comes to multithreading

3 complex decoders x 2 = 6
1 complex x2 and 3 simple = 5

conroe is build to perform well today, with mostly single threaded 32 bit apps

micro ops fusion is not working in 64bit mode, you know that, and that is like 10% of conroe performance

I really doubd K8L will have 1mb L2 cache, the performance gain won't be very much, ofcoruse the L3 cache will offer even less performance gain, but will apply to all 4 cores, so you could easily multiply the L3 effect by 4

This might not be very important for word and excell users, but K8L is a server design and amd have really serious intentions when it comes to server market.

Having in mind core arch is 20% better in desktop and 0% better in server apps clock for clock, I would say K8L will wipe the floor with anything intel can offer even in late 2008.

Desktop however is a different story, today it may seem K8L will be having hard times agains intel offerings might be true for todays apps, but you forget some major faktor:

Vista is out - that means a true 64bit OS for the masses, some of the serious apps are already supporting 64bit processing, the others will come soon after vista.

K8L is future proof, conroe is built for today, by the time K8L is out we will enjoy nex gen apps - multi threaded and 64bit. If intel really intend to release a dumb shrink I think this time next year they might have worries when it comes to desktops, and be where they ware with pentium based xeons against K8 (40% behind in perforormance)


EDIT: Amd says up to 4 double precision flops per cycle - is this possible with only 3 complex decoders?

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11-29-2006, 12:54 AM

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Originally Posted by LOE

And what about the "independent dual channel MC" that K8L is going to feature. I don't know what does this mean, but I have the feeling that K8L armed with 4 ram sticks is going to run in quad chan mode - 256bit mem interface

this would give it about 14-16 GB/sec, much more than the 5-6Gb/sek intel can offer

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11-28-2006, 05:42 AM