Storm Vs. Apogee: Too Much Hype?

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Originally Posted by kemist

Between those 2 systems you will definitely see more than 2 degrees difference, at least if youre using yates. with those id expect youd actually be getting into the 5-10 degrees difference range.

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This is with a D5, '77 LTD heatercore, Maze4, and MCW6000 with modded barbs for 1/2" tubing. Coretemp gives me a 5-6c difference in temps from idle to nine hours full load with prime95 with 1.55vcore on a sandy. That's with four 85cfm deltas. As far as yates go, I don't believe heatercores were made with yates in mind (ehh, or watercooling bwahaha) so I wouldn't stick a mismatched fan on them. I think 5 - 10 degrees difference is stretching it unless the Apogee is garbage.

Also I'm definately not bashing the storm myself. Personally I think the Storm is at the top of the list with a MP-05 on best blocks to get. When you throw pricing and availability into the mix it's easy to see Apogees and TDXs are in a lot of people's loops though.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...jbody/p952.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m..._jbody/p95.jpg

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Originally Posted by cavfire

This is with a D5, '77 LTD heatercore, Maze4, and MCW6000 with modded barbs for 1/2" tubing. Coretemp gives me a 5-6c difference in temps from idle to nine hours full load with prime95 with 1.55vcore on a sandy. That's with four 85cfm deltas. As far as yates go, I don't believe heatercores were made with yates in mind (ehh, or watercooling bwahaha) so I wouldn't stick a mismatched fan on them. I think 5 - 10 degrees difference is stretching it unless the Apogee is garbage.

Also I'm definately not bashing the storm myself. Personally I think the Storm is at the top of the list with a MP-05 on best blocks to get. When you throw pricing and availability into the mix it's easy to see Apogees and TDXs are in a lot of people's loops though.

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Well im not going to argue with your previous assertion if your are running screaming deltas, the whole point of a PA is to get those kinds of temps with 5v yates.

With a single heatercore you could get the same temps as a pa120.3 if you had high enough CFM (like a jet engine :p: )

As said though, pump and block if matched correctly do not matter as much as radiator. However, if you want quiet the PA is the king, which for many is the point of watercooling; get high end air performance quietly.

Now if you changed your recs to mcr-320, d-5, and apogee compared to storm, modded ddc, and PA-120.3 youre talking about small differences (1-3c ?) even with yates.

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Originally Posted by Budwise

take the IHS's out of the equation and see which is better. :p:

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Which cannot be done on current Intels and IIRC will soon be impossible on AMDs as well.

@nik:
As interesting as Lee's testing is/was(?), I think the fact that IHSes are a fact of life is going to force a new testing methodology.
Yes, I am aware of the huge flamefest at ProCooling regarding the validity of any/all simulated testbeds, which kinda leaves a giant gap re: what to replace them with.
Clearly, reliance on motherboard sensors is folly and DualCore Temp seems like a stopgap measure.

I'm leery of reported overclock results/comparisons due to the huge number of variables involved- which doesn't even address the issue that many watercoolers are more interested in silence than overclocking anyway.

Your outrage over Swiftech's deceptive advertising seems like the most relevant issue in this whole thread.

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Originally Posted by kemist

Between those 2 systems you will definitely see more than 2 degrees difference, at least if youre using yates. with those id expect youd actually be getting into the 5-10 degrees difference range.

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dude, you dont know what your talking about.

rad airflow doesnt effect block perfomance. what you are claiming has many degrees of fallacy.

EDIT:

also, im not gonna spend twice the money, on a block that performs, in all usefull applications pretty much the same, to support someone.

your buying a waterblock, not making a political statement.

WSP

please pull your head out of your ass and look at what he wrote:

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Better yet I'd like to see the real world difference between a Storm, Maze4 (or swiftech gpu block), P120.3, and DDC+ with modded top loop compared to an Apogee, Maze4, $20 dual heatercore, and D5 loop. Huge difference in price, but I'd be surprised to see more than 2c difference in temps, much less being able to overclock higher.

he is comparing whole systems, just as i am.

and i said that pump/block has much less importance than rad/fan in a loop so please do us all a favor and shut up and read before you make a comment



Also if you took a second to think about your assertion:
rad airflow doesnt effect block perfomance.

You're basically implying that even with no air flow through a rad a block will perform just fine. Think about that for a second. Way to pwn yourself in your own words.

WSP you are an idiot, no 2 ways about it. That image I attached was preceded by the sentence, "Will you get a better overclock from any of these? Maybe yes. maybe no. This chap seems to think he did" You quoted and rearranged my post to read out of context you troll.

Guys, come on. All this bickering and insulting over some stupid water blocks? :nono: :stick:

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Originally Posted by IanY

Guys, come on. All this bickering and insulting over some stupid water blocks? :nono: :stick:

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I know, it seems a bit silly. If someone wants to save some cash and go with the apogee, fine. If they don't mind spending the extra on the storm, then fine. Does it really matter? I don't think so, it is their money after all.

For me, when I get watercooling I'll probably get either the aquaxtreme MP-05 Pro LE or the storm, the apogee is just ugly IMO :p:

no this is getting messy ....
Why keep complaining about this while tryin to find each others bad points ... damn, your comparing the Storm and Apogee like setting two racecars on a 10 m race, damn that IHS and there should be a comparison of both blocks on a naked CPU, like an OCed Opteron 148 or somethin ...

and now, let me ask some noobish questions for the REAL world ;):
I have one DDC+ and a GPU block (lets say an MP-1) and which block should I choose --- a STORM or an APOGEE? Which of those block would result in better temps on the cpu and which on the gpu
(when its set together in the loop)?

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Originally Posted by kemist

WSP

You're basically implying that even with no air flow through a rad a block will perform just fine. Think about that for a second. Way to pwn yourself in your own words.

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the block will perform the same. the cpu temperature will increase. but that isnt because of the block performing worse, its because the rad can no longer dissipate the heat.:rolleyes:

@nik

explain this, according to YOUR LINK, not only would the apogee outperform the 6002A, it also outperforms the storm by several degrees. nothings been edited except bold emphasis on some parts.

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

IMO the marketing spin from Swiftech regarding the Apogee was a joke. Not only does in not outperform the Storm (which they hoped to replace with the Apogee) but it is clearly not even close to the performance of the block it DOES replace, the 6002.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...1&d=1164906600

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I'm not even addressing the price differential here. Is the Apogee the equal of the Storm or not, regardless of price? Swiftech continually tells everyone that the Apogee is *better* than the Storm. So even if Storm were to be the same price as the Apogee, Swiftech is telling people to buy the Apogee. That is what I am trying to find out here.

My own informal testing yields temp differences of no more than 1 to 2 degrees C with a dual core. Of course the Storm is superior for single and dual cores.

The more shocking scenario is that when it comes to the quad core Intel, the Apogee may actually outperform the Storm. My jaw dropped to the floor. Yes, I have all that crap (both versions of the Storm.. sorry I can't find a silver block) and have tested all that crap as well.

I am trying very hard to seek independent confirmation.

I don't care if it is even made out of pure silver, or gold, or diamonds, or plutonium or uranium or whatever. I don't care if the Queen of England knighted the creator of the Storm or if the Pope blessed the Storm with Holy Water. I don't care if 72 virgins were sacrificed to manufacture a single Storm water block, or if the Big Guy says in the Holy Book that Apogee users should be beheaded. If a Storm does not perform as well as an Apogee, it goes flying out the window into the garbage can. The same goes for the Apogee. My quest is irrespective of cost.

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Originally Posted by SparkyJJO

I know, it seems a bit silly. If someone wants to save some cash and go with the apogee, fine. If they don't mind spending the extra on the storm, then fine. Does it really matter? I don't think so, it is their money after all.

For me, when I get watercooling I'll probably get either the aquaxtreme MP-05 Pro LE or the storm, the apogee is just ugly IMO :p:

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.. so are we comparin numbers or subjective thoughts? this is a joke ... :D

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Originally Posted by Aerosupra

.. so are we comparin numbers or subjective thoughts? this is a joke ... :D

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Dunno, but those MP-05 blocks are sexy. :D

OMG WSP are you dense? That image you KEEP posting only corresponds to the sentence, "Will you get a better overclock from any of these? Maybe yes. maybe no. This chap seems to think he did" And, THERE IS NO BLOODY 6002 IN THAT!

Again, that image was just to show that some folks MIGHT buy a block on how well the CPU overclocked, NOT ON THE REPORTED TEMPS.

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

You quoted and rearranged my post to read out of context you troll.

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Dude, your exact words are

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

Will you get a better overclock from any of these? Maybe yes. maybe no. This chap seems to think he did: http://www.sgoverclockers.com/index....owcontent&id=4

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In plain english, that means you said this guy says he gets better overclocks from a list OTHER than Apogee. I'm a noob and even I can see you should be shutting up, not insulting the guy who took the time to make a very informative thread, that I really appreciate.

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Originally Posted by kemist

You're basically implying that even with no air flow through a rad a block will perform just fine. Think about that for a second. Way to pwn yourself in your own words.

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No he's not, you're ASSUMING that he's talking about overall temperature, he wasn't. Independant of how well the radiator is cooling, the water block has basic heat absorbtion and dissipation properties, standard physics. While I don't think the argument has much merit, performance within a system is really all I care about, for you to go "basically implying" moronic statements, adn then accusing other people of being idiots, :confused:

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

OMG WSP are you dense? That image you KEEP posting only corresponds to the sentence, "Will you get a better overclock from any of these? Maybe yes. maybe no. This chap seems to think he did" And, THERE IS NO BLOODY 6002 IN THAT!

Again, that image was just to show that some folks MIGHT buy a block on how well the CPU overclocked, NOT ON THE REPORTED TEMPS.

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

IMO the marketing spin from Swiftech regarding the Apogee was a joke. Not only does in not outperform the Storm (which they hoped to replace with the Apogee) but it is clearly not even close to the performance of the block it DOES replace, the 6002.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...1&d=1164906600

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and to reference the text in red.

http://www.systemcooling.com/images/...ee/image32.gif


so can you show me how you came up with this?

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

but it is clearly not even close to the performance of the block it DOES replace, the 6002.

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and how does that change the fact you said this? but link to a site that says different? quite simpy, YOU claim the apogee is WORSE than the storm, but then YOU link to a site saying the apogee is BETTER than the storm.

i hate to need to use an analogy, as it isnt very formal, but i think its needed.

thats like me claiming its ok to kill anyone who says something i dont like, but then linking to the consitution saying there is free speech.

it doesnt matter why you linked to what you did, the simple fact is, what you linked to clearly refutes your previous claims.

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Originally Posted by falqon

Dude, your exact words are



In plain english, that means you said this guy says he gets better overclocks from a list OTHER than Apogee. I'm a noob and even I can see you should be shutting up, not insulting the guy who took the time to make a very informative thread, that I really appreciate.


No he's not, you're ASSUMING that he's talking about overall temperature, he wasn't. Independant of how well the radiator is cooling, the water block has basic heat absorbtion and dissipation properties, standard physics. While I don't think the argument has much merit, performance within a system is really all I care about, for you to go "basically implying" moronic statements, adn then accusing other people of being idiots, :confused:

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That is not what WSP incorrectly quoted in the first place. The first quote did put n1kshibs picture in context with wording which didn't belong to it. Notice how the 6002 isn't in the graph?

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Originally Posted by falqon

In plain english, that means you said this guy says he gets better overclocks from a list OTHER than Apogee. I'm a noob and even I can see you should be shutting up, not insulting the guy who took the time to make a very informative thread, that I really appreciate.

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Wow, another brainless wonder. Which block in the below picture has the highest overclock? Now go back under your rock.

http://www.anonforums.com/builds/Results.gif

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Originally Posted by Aerosupra

.. so are we comparin numbers or subjective thoughts? this is a joke ... :D

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subjective :D
since it appears they all perform roughly the same then OK I'll base my purchase on looks instead :p:

WSP, you obviously did not read my post. The image below is IHS based testing on an AMD CPU. If you had read my post, you would know that it is crap. The maze 3 performed within .5C of the rest of the blocks. If you care to read and look you will see on the heat die (the 14mm and 32mm) the apogee gets SPANKED by the 6002 and the storm. Now please, STFU.

http://www.leesspace.com/images/Web_...at%201_38V.gif

ok gues this is getting rediculous lol i thing it has been proven that apogee loses by a degree or little bit more. are apogee under rated yes but i don't really care i'm perfectly happy with mine, end of discussion.

why dont we do a battle between storm vs all the other blocks in the world next!!!

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Originally Posted by Solarfall

ok gues this is getting rediculous lol i thing it has been proven that apogee loses by a degree or little bit more. are apogee under rated yes but i don't really care i'm perfectly happy with mine, end of discussion.

why dont we do a battle between storm vs all the other blocks in the world next!!!

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Actually, the Apogee is overrated, being a 5000-series block, while everyone believes it beats a 6000-series block and maybe even spanks the storm.
That is what joecommon from yetanotherpcforumwithwatercooling believes, since swiftech says so.

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Originally Posted by IanY

I'm not even addressing the price differential here. Is the Apogee the equal of the Storm or not, regardless of price? Swiftech continually tells everyone that the Apogee is *better* than the Storm. So even if Storm were to be the same price as the Apogee, Swiftech is telling people to buy the Apogee. That is what I am trying to find out here.

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Swiftech is telling people to buy the Apogee because it's substantially cheaper for them to manufacture and because it's their design (Gabe seems to have issues with manufacturing blocks which were designed outside of Swiftech).

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My own informal testing yields temp differences of no more than 1 to 2 degrees C with a dual core. Of course the Storm is superior for single and dual cores.

The more shocking scenario is that when it comes to the quad core Intel, the Apogee may actually outperform the Storm. My jaw dropped to the floor. Yes, I have all that crap (both versions of the Storm.. sorry I can't find a silver block) and have tested all that crap as well.

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The issue that I have with everyone bringing up the quad-core CPUs is that quad-core, in its current implementation, is just a shoddy temporary solution--an aberration in CPU manufacturing trends. All they're doing right now is sticking two separate dual-core dies on the same substrate. Both Intel and AMD know that this isn't a cost-effective approach to quad-core and, as such, it won't continue for long. Once quad-core moves from the realm of pure "e-peen" (come on, there are very few consumer apps/games which even make full use of dual-core CPUs, let alone quad-core) into some sort of more functional, quasi-mainstream role, you'll be seeing single-die quad-core solutions that likely won't be much larger than current dual-core dies.

Petra,

I agree with you on the quad core thing, but not everyone is a gamer, and it certainly helps with video encoding. If I could build an eight core Clovertown system without the FB-DIMMs and at a down-to-earth price, I would readily do so. And besides that, have you seen the reviews on the twin FX74 systems? Can you say humbled? For now, I'll just have to live with what's out there.. and there's only one Intel consumer quad core out there (i don't think the Xeon 3230s/3240s are out yet).

Regarding Swiftech wanting to maximize its margins, I have no idea why they even bothered to buy the intellectual property for the Storm design. Did they buy the Storm to try to dump it and eliminate competition? They're not Oracle lol And besides, its kind of presumptous to believe that the industry is a two-horse race, especially with all the top end boutique manufacturers such as EK. Anyway, if they really believe they have a superior product in the Apogee, then they would stop selling the Storm. They haven't, so that's a red flag.

You operate a great retail establishment and I will channel some of my business your way in the future. As you can see, I'm looking to get a couple of your new modified pumps.

Petra I didn't see your post originally, but that's what I've been saying about quad core. Dual core isn't being taken advantage of fully, and now AMD/Intel are bringing out poorly implemented quad core. Ditto on the manufacturing costs of the Apogee. Does anyone believe Swiftech would have dumped the MCW6000/2 series to come out with a new block if it wasn't cheap to make.