More about K8L
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Ha, wouldn't it suck when we get to 8 cores that one OC'ed badly and the other 7 did like 5GHz :p:
Back in early 2005 AMD claimed that Fab 36 would be 65nm from it's start and begin shipping 65nm cpus in late 2005. In March 2006 the AMD rumor mill claimed that 65nm K8Ls would be shipping in June. K8L launch dates have since been moved back time and time again.
K8L ES chips in December seems a wee bit early for a CPU that isn't scheduled to ship until Q3-2007.
BTW, I enjoyed MAS' joke about Brisbanes overclocking to 3.5-3.6GHz on $80 mobos. Brisbane's high clock speed capability is probably why AMD is releasing them at 2.6G and under while releasing their new flagship FX64, FX70, FX72 and FX74 on 90nm at 125W TDP. Somehow I imagine that this all makes sense to some of you...
If you rely on the rumor mill, you could also believe that K8L has been pulled in from H1 2008 to H1 2007. Don't assign too much credibility to the rumor mill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Pohl
AMD has been very consistent with its 65nm and K8L schedule over the last year. 65nm products by the end of this year, K8L by mid-2007. There's no real reason to believe either has slipped from these targets.
I dont remember if K8L already has this, but independant frequency and Vcore adjustements are definately in the works according to AMD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmay
from what ive read off teh AMD website, "K8L" will have that.Quote:
Originally Posted by v0dka
K8L sounds like its going to be more than just a step or two ahead of Rev.G. is it true that Rev.G processors will have a fourth complex decoder and OOO loads? as you can tell, i dont know anything about processor architecture, but im trying :p
If Rev.G is something special that will give higher performance, thats good since the competetion between AMD and Intel right now is still pretty decent. any performance gains on AMD's part would be good. it definitely sounds like K8L is going to own intel hard.
Mesyn,
I would not underestimate the TV and cellphone market. Not sure if US is heading into recession because I dont have a crystal ball that can tell me what will happen a few months down the road, but semiconductors industry has hit a speed bump already.
Desktop PC will not go away due to the business users, gamers and HTPC crowd. Business PC is about 33% of the overall PC unit volume, and desktop PC is about 55% of the overall PC unit sales. Make your own intepretations. :p
My concern is more on AMD's cashflow constrain because that will seriously hamper their ability to compete against Intel in the long run.
Altair sounds/looks nice, but what's the actual performance increase from to Windsor to Anteres is more interesting. That is a better gauge to the IPC increase of the "K8L" core.
Breakfromyou,
Yes, K8L has increased the width of the instruction fetch/decode stage set to make the pipe wider/smarter at the front. It also adds/improves its EX stage unit (from 64bit FPU to 128bit or something of that sort), so the pipe is also wider at the back. Overall the IPC improvement from K8 is big, but not as big as P4 to C2D (because P4 just sucked too much).
same can be freaking said for the Itanic :stick:Quote:
Originally Posted by LowRun
as for the Risc vs Cisc debate the winner is:
Cisc front end and with a Risc back end. END OF DEBATE
YOU MUST HAVE GOOD SOFTWARE support BEFORE you even release the product. Otherwise all you have is a power piece of silicon that is unused and useless
I think you're getting your rumors and offical news mixed up. AMD claimed 65nm samples in late 2005, which is very different from the process being ready much less having anything available for sale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Pohl
Also AMD never said that Fab 36 would be 65nm from the start (but they did say it was designed with 65nm production from the start which I think is what got you confused...):
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=26936
"Production at Fab 36 will start at 90 nanometres but during the year will ramp 65 nanometres as fast as it can, said Ruiz. This means that wafer starts, probably for the first four or month, will be created using the 12-inch wafers as a test of concept before the 65 nano tech, bought in from IBM is deployed, just to sort of bed it in."
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=2734
"As we mentioned in our initial coverage of Fab 36's grand opening, all parts shipping out of the plant will be 90nm, with AMD converting to 65nm starting in the second half of this year. Fab 36 will be "substantially converted" to 65nm manufacturing by the middle of 2007. Once again, AMD wasn't able to provide us with any sort of concrete details about the ramp to 65nm."
I don't recall any rumors about K8L being out in June at all, and if there were so what? Thats not official news from AMD so it shouldn't matter at all, or do you hold every company responsible for every rumor that isn't true? I did hear that it had taped out in late June 2006, which is something entirly different from a release, and is certainly possible that this is true given the roadmap for K8L that AMD has released (takes about a year from tape out to have chips available for sale, from June 2006 to late Q2/early Q3 2007 would almost be spot on...).
It seems pretty much dead on to me if they've already taped out in June, unless they plan on missing thier set launch date they'd pretty much _have_ to have some Alpha silicon ES's out to mobo OEM's and other hardware vendors for testing around that time and to work out the remaining bugs in the Alpha ES's and build volume for launch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Pohl
I recall Intel releasing P4's at 3Ghz or so that often OC'd to more than 4Ghz with good air cooling (and they never did release a P4 with a stock clock over 4Ghz did they?), and I also remember many AXP 2500+'s that OC'd well past the top clocked AXP 3200+ as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Pohl
OC'ing is a crap shoot and to suggest we'll all be capable of getting early 65nm A64's to 3.5-3.6Ghz on air would be rediculous IMO, but I wouldn't be shocked to see that sort of OC isn't all that uncommon either.
You wouldn't happen to be able to post a link to some numbers would you?Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminc
Niether do I and my bad for posting a comment suggesting that I did, however the housing market and the credit bubble that has fueled it has been one of the major forces behind the economy these last few years and that all appears to be drying up ATM... What other market segment would you look at to pick up the slack and/or create stimulus in the economy to justify large and continuous increases in spending on luxury goods?Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminc
So it hits one speed bump and thats it, party over? I do believe that were going to see a slow down in clockspeed and performance enhancements despite Intel's roadmaps, but I don't think things have fundamentally changed YET (a key word in this sentance, notice how large I've made it...), not until they well and truly do run out of process shrinks anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminc
I'll interpret this as you agreeing with me then, thanks! :D j/kQuote:
Originally Posted by vitaminc
Understandable, but I think AMD has worked to mitigate this as much as possible by partnering with IBM and others for help with process development.Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminc
Depends on if the 40% IPC increase over K8 is a conservative or wildly optomistic (or special case only) estimate, frustratingly enough we'll probably have to wait til' benches are "leaked" from the ES's testing in late Dec. or early Jan. or maybe even launch day if AMD decides take the NDA's seriously again.Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminc
sweet, but i'd like to see some benchies with new amd cpus
I don't believe anything originating from the rumor mill. Particularly when it concerns new AMD product availability dates. Speaking of which, I wonder how RHTT is coming along? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by oldblue
No confusion here. AMD claimed that they would start producing 65nm chips in H1-2005 at Fab 36 and be in full 65nm production in 2006. Months later, after failing to meet these claims, AMD changed their 65nm claims to those that you provided links to. It's a simple matter of following the timeline. There is what AMD claimed in early 2005, followed by their various revised claims in 2005 and 2006 as their previous 65nm estimates were missed.Quote:
Originally Posted by mesyn191
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/dis...408081329.html
“We are qualifying equipment as we speak. Fab 36 was designed to be a 65-nm from the start. We are making great strides with IBM and our SRAM yields are hitting all our milestones,” said AMD’s Automated Precision Manufacturing (APM) director Tom Sonderman in an interview with EETimes web-site.
AMD completed the Fab 36 building in late 2004 and then started installation of the equipment. According to the original plan the company aimed to start qualifications of the factory in the late 1H 2005. AMD Fab 36 is expected to be in volume production in 2006.
“The whole idea is to begin to process 65-nm in the middle of 2005 and bring it into production in 2006. We're certainly on schedule,” Mr. Sonderman added.
Your analogy between immature first revision Brisbane and very mature revision P4/K7 overclocking potential makes no sense at all. Of course there were 3G P4s that OC'd to 4G and XP2500s that OC'd to 2.5G when that was the OC potential of their mature processes and yields. How that relates to Brisbane when AMD's early 65nm yields are limited to 2.6G eludes me.
If the first Brisbanes OC to 3.5-3.6Ghz on $80 mobos with good air-cooling, I'll buy you one. If AMD begins shipping 45nm cpus in mid-2008 as they now claim, I'll buy you one of those as well. Keep in touch. :D
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Pohl
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Pohl
is K8L will be built on 65nm?
:o zenith of the california school systemQuote:
Originally Posted by theteamaqua
btw, yes, they are on 65nm.
yesQuote:
Originally Posted by theteamaqua
I don't see how your quote supports what you're saying, it looks like what AMD has been saying all along for the most part...
“We are qualifying equipment as we speak. Fab 36 was designed to be a 65-nm from the start. We are making great strides with IBM and our SRAM yields are hitting all our milestones,” said AMD’s Automated Precision Manufacturing (APM) director Tom Sonderman in an interview with EETimes web-site.
AMD completed the Fab 36 building in late 2004 and then started installation of the equipment. According to the original plan the company aimed to start qualifications of the factory in the late 1H 2005. AMD Fab 36 is expected to be in volume production in 2006.
“The whole idea is to begin to process 65-nm in the middle of 2005 and bring it into production in 2006. We're certainly on schedule,” Mr. Sonderman added.
The only thing that contradicts the roadmap they've got right now would the volume 65nm production in 2006, so it looks like they've slipped a few months somewhere in thier estimates, hardly makes them out to be pathological liars.
I think to expect no improvments in OC yield from early 65nm AMD chips is a little to pessimistic, my post was to show how little stock clocks often matter as far as OC'ing capability was concerned though you do have a point as well.
I never said nor implied that AMD are pathological liars. I was merely pointing out that they typically fail to meet their long-term timeline goals and used Fab 36 as an example. In 2004 AMD said that Fab 36 would be 65nm from the start, open several months before it did and be producing 65nm chips in H1-06. If you go back a little further to 2002, AMD told investors that they would be producing 65nm chips in mid-2005. I'm not saying that it's a BFD but facts are facts and shouldn't be ignored.
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...nalyst_Mtg.pdf
As for Brisbane overclocking, I didn't say that they won't overclock. What I said was that expecting 3.5-3.6GHz on $80 mobos was a joke. If early Brisbane yields were great, I don't think AMD would be relying on 90nm process for all of their >2.6GHz cpus.
Unfortunately this is the way the world works sometimes :\. Companies need to make somewhat optimistic predictions in for public relations purposes. Otherwise, they wouldn't get the market share.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Pohl
Not that I agree with it - I think it is dishonest. Perhaps AMD hit some roadbumps along the way. 65nm technology is not easy. 1 nm corresponds to about 4 silicon atom layers, so that transistor gate width is extremely small.
i agree with you , even a big company like intel has hit several road bumpsQuote:
Perhaps AMD hit some roadbumps along the way.
and it won't be the last for either company :)
lets be honest AMD hit alot of bumps on the road to making K8 but they are still around and in the future there will be more bumps but AMD will still be around. What I am really looking forward to is Socket F, Which should not only let you use K8L processors but also UltraSPARC processors, PowerPC processors and just about any other processor architecture out there (should such company wish to use AMD's socket) Not only that but you will be able to use different processors in the same system. you'll be able to have both a PowerPC processor with its VMX unit to do lots of vector math and also have a K8L processor to play Fear. And if you can afford a 4P system, imagine what exotic hardware you can have play together to give you the best performance in the applications that you want as well as the ability to tweak and modify how your OS uses it and also the ability to select a Given core and tell it to be in charge of all your music or whatever. the Possibilities of this is HUGE and I personally can't wait. (on a side note, very excited about FreeBSD's PowerPC port :D )
Semprons give over 50% of AMD's revenue, so i guess (if that unoficial roadmap is true) they're using the 65nm fab fully for their best selling CPU's and not the ones that do not sell very well...Quote:
As for Brisbane overclocking, I didn't say that they won't overclock. What I said was that expecting 3.5-3.6GHz on $80 mobos was a joke. If early Brisbane yields were great, I don't think AMD would be relying on 90nm process for all of their >2.6GHz cpus.
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...nalyst_Mtg.pdf
Actually it says nothing of the sort, just that they plan to qualify the 65nm process by 2H 2005, IOW sampling... Looking at slide 4 I could see what you mean, but they give themselves alot of wiggle room and give no firm date for release to market, just a long green bar that is supposed to signify the production phase.
Don't quite a bit of the X2's OC to 2.9-3.1Ghz on air? 3.5-3.6Ghz doesn't seem to be impossible or a joke with a die shrink... Again, what ships as top clocked aint' the same as what is possible with OC'ing, you don't think AMD just runs SuperPi to qualify its chips do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by fred pohl
Does anyone know how much K8L will cost?
actually, contrary to Fred_Pohl, AMD had a quicker time to market on the Opteron 2000/8000 series than Intel did with Woodcrest. by about 3 weeks.
dave