got a link?Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
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got a link?Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
One question:
What was wrong in that competition ? What we whould change, to make another one better ?
:toast:
Nothing wrong. The problem was really too many people got busy to build one... (Hey I had hx, etc made up already but just didn't get to it to finish up customer order)... and it isn't cheap (bit less accessible other than for advanced builder with budget really...) and... lack of prize :P lol.
Not that it really makes much diff on prize department unless it is something like maybe BIG FAT Tank of r23, r14, etc... :p
I think we should just try it out again when time comes :)
In the mean time, since this is over, I need to find time to work on getting another competition ready... the cheap SS competition that was talked about a little over a month ago... :)
I can't wait for the next competition, bring em on Jinu!
i think everyone who built a unit should get that BIG FAT Tank of R23. :slobber:Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
you want to finance it, jin?
I wanna ask about prizes for each place in that competition, they are still actually ? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I heard something about special edition of golden froster :woot:
Hey, any news ?
ya need to contact the moderators LukeXe, i pmed chilly last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
ya got pm ;)
My friends
when we will start another competition ?
Maybe we will do it from january to vacations ? What do you think about this idea ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
what about a cascade compertition as thats never been done.
maybe go for 1/4hp compressor to make it fun :stick:
the autocascade comps havnt had much luck in the past, i dont think it will change in the future either.
personally a getto single stage comp would be nice also, alot more ppl could enter
Okay... ghetto competition as we have talked about before sounds fun.... In fact, I have some layout of points system I thought of it while back. The real problem more than anything else was the gas acquistion at certain parts of world. (I think R-134a is the gas for this).
Have we resolved this yet?
getto has to be propane in my option, thats what most getto units in the past have used :DQuote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
yep propane (R290) is cheaper than R134a (In france for example).
I am sorry, but I can't promote propane at all for quite obvious reason. Otherwise, I will have to get legal advisor involved for this competition and next thing I will hear will be, don't do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
Saying that sounds even wores, you are telling me most are building to such a poor quality that the refrigerant is dangerus? I hate to continue to break the news to people but ALL refrigerant is flamible inside a system when mixed with the oil, the whole concept is not to have air inside the system and to not have the system leaking. Small leaks the air to fuel (Any refrigerant oil mix) is the only question, and shot of chopping the reciever in half you will not get a dangerus mix.
If so there should not even be a compitition as the technicle quality is a danger, and thus, the type of gas is moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
I think the USA is one of the few countries in which propane isn't allowed yet as a refrigerant, so the legal issue is only for US citizens.
It's not the fact it can be used or not I am talking about Xeon and Unknown. I just can't trust every participants in forum to follow safe practices if such gas is involved. There are few reports of accidents among builders I am aware of as well as some people who have tried. You should know after reading some post on ocforum Xeon... -__-;
Not to mention personally I know at least 2 builders who had unfortunate accident but came out unscathed (only got thrown back with singed hair thank god)
Well this is not in the main forum though this is a compitition with people whom I certainly should hope to have a good concept of how to do things correct, and I can certainly tell you from my less experianced days it is harder then you think to screw up with R-290 then some seem to think.
In the general forum I will agree with you on the R-290 issue to a degree (I how ever will say if they are not competant enough to use it they shouldn't be making systems at all) But here in a more advanced group I should expect every one in this to be of suficient skill that it is a non issue!
R290 problem in my opinion is more a matter of de-build and re-build as it will linger inside tubes even with a careful purging of the propane. This is a nasty suprise to braze up to and certain members who have purged with it have definitly put some in danger.
i think that the fact that propane is readily available will make some of the newer users here try and build systems when they are not fully ready just because they can get their hands on the gas and all of the components. There may be no accidents at all this competition, but people are competetive and will try stupid things to make a name for themselves.
All we need is 1 accident, or death. Then everyone will realize that it wasn't worth it. It's easy to say he shouldn't have been building systems, he didn't know enough, but the competition was there, he could get the parts and the gas.
I vote for r134a. We don't need any accidents at XS
Why not trust people to say what gas they are using, do two classes (maybe r134a and r290?) and just not count gas costs into total unit?
Well, since I do plan to host such competition and make arrangement for prizes through donation or what not, I will play a little dictatorship here. NO PROPANE...
R134a. End of story.
Now real question is I remember people saying they can't get hand on it last time at certain parts of world... speak up now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
Now we just need Walt for our safety meeting and we can get this off to a good start:toast:
And also what limits as far as compressors, otherwise i think rotarys are going to be a hell of an unfair advantage ;)
R-134a Can be found in the MG Chemicles air duster product knowen as Super 134a or to that effect.
With air dusters you can readily get: R-134a; R-159.
and I gues propylen is banned too since it is flammible, that would exclude R-159 too, So make sure it is just R-134a in the can, thees are all around the world just read the contents.
Good... now that we are rolling... next thing i had in mind was
25% performance, 25% cost, 25% look, and 25% on practicality (noise, ease of use, mounting whatever that makes it more suitable for use)
This will put unequal type of components more in line for advantage /vs disadvantage. Rotary will be loud which will kill some of practicality while raging on on performance, hermatic in general will go the other way around, etc.
Also, bit of attnetion to detail will show up as maybe the last edge you need to make it to the ranks :)
Another thing is volunteer for judge panel.
Also, need some consistant method of measuring the load. I don't expect competition to hold 200w per say... that will just about kill most of people despite R134a has great capacity capability. Thinking more in line of 150w load for this and some standarized method of putting heat on. Maybe your CPU with certain voltage and certain overclock can be accounted as 150w if you don't want to get into load tester making.
Cost of unit, I will exclude price of refrigerant as R-134a is going to be universal. Also, most of tool cost will be excluded as that will make the idea of budget phase change nearly impossible... (there are no real budget tools for this... -_-) This part, I will need heavy discussion as it can really uneven playing ground when you have much better and varied tools.
Noise measuring can be done somewhat easily once we set up standard method of such... maybe passing around db meter between competitor might not be bad idea with recorded clip to see which type of noise the unit produce.
Looks we just can't hide it.
That is just generalization... now let's get down to nitty gritty one at a time until we settle things down.
#1. What kind of tools should be permitted and what would not be?
Yes I don't think the gas makes it all that dangerous when inside the compressor. Usually what most people have problems with is lack of experience. This type of cooling especially cascade can be difficult and potentially dangerous if you don't know what your doing. I'm looking for some type of community college class or something along that lines for the basics before I start building.
R-134a and great capacity doen't belong in the same sentance, it is lesser performance then R-12, but its dynamics is ideal for chillers, and it has nice head pressures that are some what easier on the compressor.
After work I'll post the Enthalpy charts to R-290; R-12; & R-22 just to give you an idea of their differances in capacity.
R-12 sure... it's everyone's beloved gas except it will become dinsosaur. Especially place where you are at I believe it is illegal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony
R-22 got license? Also much higher head pressure. Given limited condensing size most of people will be using, I wouldn't say capacity of system will be too good and safe at same time for first builders.
Before saying something like this, please think what this thread is about.
Okay, tools: (Will update as I get more feedback)
Not allowed: Lathe, Mill, Drill press with cross slide vise.
Allowed:
Well, for a real gettho system, one tool allowed could be our or someone's teeth :DQuote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
Now for real, I think that comon tools like pliers, normal drillers or dremel and such could be allowed.
Not allowing tube benders, swag tool and others frigo especific tools would be interesting ;) , but I think there's no need for that...
Or fire or gas (refrigerant) ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratax
A swagging tool is only 7 bucks at home depot, and i picked up my tubing bender for 15 at a plumbing store.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
You obviusly failed to read my post I said TO ILLISTRATE THE DIFFERANCES OF R-134a. Not as a sujestion to use.
Thank you but I am well aware of R-12 I deeply do not condon its use due to the damage it does to the environment, R-22 has high heads we know this I know this The newbs now know this (From reading thees posts)
I know what the thread is about thats why I posted the enthalpy chart for R-134a, I was going to post the others to show diff between the types. you need this info as compressors are oft rated in BTU/H for R-12 or 22 if they know the dif they can adjust the capacity to R-134a.
So then those who you a drill press as a mill are also not allowed?????? that is a unreasonable conclusion, in my opinion as its takes those tools to make advanced components to advance phase building past were its is today.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
That would be reasonable if we were talking about a competition for noobs first build & limited to such & single stage, but that's not whats implied by Threads title.
Quote:
R-22 has high heads we know this I know this The newbs now know this (From reading thees posts)
R22 is probably in over 80% of A/C units under 5 ton worldwide,pressures while higher than R12 ,is easily managed and it caries a good load if it's available to you.
Exactly my point in posting an enthalpy chart for it as nearly every knowen compressor will have data for R-22 on it and if they know the diffs between R-134a and R-22 it will give them an idea of how that unit will perform for R-134a.Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
R-290 beats R-22 on the Head pressures and another thing (Can't recall still groggy, I hate mornings)
What about purchasing evaporators, definitly an addition to price, but some do sell quite affordable evaporators.
The one major tool that seems to cause problem is drill press... Honestly, it isn't safe to cut coppper with it... at the same time, not everyone has one... and by spending $40-70 more it can turn into cheap mill (really cheap mill) with cross slide table... Man... where do we stop on this? I don't think people have problem with most of tools but this one will be irky.
have 3 classes:
134a and no better tools
good gasses and no tools and vice-versa
good gasses and better tools [limited to 12000 btu rotary compressor]
[better tools clasify as mill, lathe, drill presses, shapers, cast evaps, etc...