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well TDP is usually for the highest rated chip in the line (for AMD at least).. by setting such a high number, AMD has a lot of room to grow before running into heat "problems"
assuming between 85 and 90% efficiency, AMD can go up to 3ghz with the venice core before going over the 67w limit.. for this particular chip. problem is, not all chips are the same. some are less efficient than others and put out more heat.
I guess that's sometimes true, especially for older XP chips and mobile A64. They want to make some headroom for future models. But now we see strange numbers like the 3500+D I mentioned. They probably said 67 W because they had a faster revision D in mind but it never showed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzimark
Another story is Opteron E. AFAIK, the 2.4 GHz and the 2.6 GHz showed up at the same time. The 2.4 GHz have 85.3 W. Now is that high number there to get some headroom for the next model? Well no, the 2.6 is already there too and got 92.6 W. Very strange.
yepp, the tdp is the rating for the mobo and heatsink builders, it means that the mainboards and heatsinks have to be able to supply the cpu with that much electricity and be able to handle the heat comming from the cpu, thats all :)
sometimes i wonder if that opteron number includes dual core, because it is definitly very high :confused:
just figure i would post again with prob my last major update for this turion. nothing really new, cpu seems to run everything i throw at it at 2620 @ 1.65. anything higher and it will fail 3dmark2003.(prime95 blend/fft,super pi 32m, and 3dmark2001/2005 are fine higher at around 2670) thought this was a power supply problem so tried a 500w ttgi (not sure if it is better than my antec but figured i would try it) with a 30a 12v. (my antec has only 24a) still fine at 2620 but problems at 2630.(same as my antec) really don't want to throw anymore voltage at it. (even though it is still running only around 40c under load after taking off my smartfan and just using the 22db silentcat) i am going to run it 24/7 with 1.65v at 2600. (with my fsb, about as fast as a stock fx55)
i will contine to monitor and comment on the 90nm mobile chips though. hopefully those chips will turn out to be what i/we thought these turions would turn out to be. (e core san diegos on s754)
Mats, from your diagram a 3500+ Winny would be closer to 48w than 42w, where did you get the 42w figure? And a Rev.E would be bout 56w... all this is on standard voltage & standard HTT... raising HTT and memory speed must also increase power consumption.
Either way, I dont think these Turions are Rev.E procs so maybe they consume even less power than a Winny... who know?
tristancarton, when 3Dmark starts crashing could it be related to memory (speed or timings)?
that's measured from the power plug, thus you must apply the inefficiency of the PWM to the draw. assuming 90%, the actual power draw is ~42w :)
And 90% efficiency is probably a fairly optimistic figure for a consumer board. From what I've read, server/industrial boards are generally the only ones with 90%+ efficiency, and generally the consumer motherboards are between 80-85%, of course depending on the quality of components used by the manufacturer and what kind of load they are experiencing (i.e. if they're anything like PSUs efficiency is lower with extremely high or extremely low load demands).
Thanks for the update tristancarton. I got the Turion up to ~2.55GHz at 1.6v, but didn't bother testing more than a couple hours of P95. Will probably try to find a nice middle ground at 1.3-1.4v.
Rabbi NZ:
How I first got the 42 W figure: Calculated from a 1.35 V, 35 W, 3000+ Oakville running at 1.40 V, 2200 MHz which gave me 41.4 W TDP for a 3500+D. We get 41.4/48 = 86.25 % efficency for that EPoX 9NPA+ Ultra mobo in the review.
Remember that some A64E runs at 1.35 V (not the one in the review), which almost makes up for the extra power needed compared to D.
For a 3500+E(1.4 V): 86.25% * 55.9 = 48.2 W
For a 3500+E(1.35 V): 44.8 W
But if the efficency is lower like ff says, then it makes the CPU even more low power. I guess they rather optimize the mobo power regulators efficency for max output (X2 or 130 nm FX) rather than a 3500+...
Turion is more low power than A64D, since they do 2.4 GHz at 35 W and 1.35 V (2.2 GHz at 25 W and 1.2 V). Oakville did 2.0 GHz at 35 W and 1.35 V.
TDP is valid for a certain CPU (or groups of CPU's, present or future) running at stock speed and stock Vcore, nothing else. If you raise the HTT or mem speed then you're going out of specs, but we all know that...
You should be able to accurately calculate any revision E Turion wattage using the Benchtest CPU calc, because Turion has a very defined thermal limit, and is not as open ended as desktop models. Just plug in max speed for the 25w line (2200MHz), voltage (1.2), and wattage (25w) as the known variables, then calculate your unknowns. To verify the accuracy of the calculator, I plugged in 2400MHz and 1.35v (which is the highest 35w Turion) and sure enough wattage came out to 34.52w, so I'd say the calculator is pretty reliable.
So when I plug 1.55v and 2.4GHz into the calc with the Turion knowns I only get 45.5w. Apparently voltage has very little to do with power consumption on K8, which makes sense, because higher clocks seem to raise temps for me much more than higher voltage (was the same with my Oakville, and to some extent my Newcastle).
Even at 3GHz with 1.6v according to the calculator it's only using 60.6w.
Not sure if these figures can be carried over to the desktop chips, though, because it's possible Turion does use different transistors with different power characteristics at the same settings.
If only I had a clamp-style pickup with my multimeter I would be more than happy to test current on my +12v and either back up or shoot down these claims. But I don't, and I'm not about to hack up my PSU wires to measure amperage in series. And the cheapest DVOMs I've seen with inductive pickups were still pretty expensive.
LOL, so strange...Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzimark
single core 2.4 GHz: 85,3 W :stick:
single core 2.6 GHz: 92,6 W :stick:
dual core 1.8-2.2 GHz: 95 W Ok, I believe this one, (VERY close to 2*48.2 :eek: from my last post)
I use CPUPower for calculating this.Quote:
Originally Posted by fr0stedflakes
No, it's not like that. It's the same for all CPU's. Frequency affects the wattage less than Vcore. Try calculate 3 GHz at stock Vcore and you'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by fr0stedflakes
Pnew = Pold*(Vnew / Vold)²
Pnew = Pold*(fnew / fold)
....IIRC.
Will motherboard makers post us from using turions in desktop boards.
Thanks
Yeah I guess your right, somehow I think I knew that in the back of my head I just got my thoughts mixed up when I wrote them out. :confused:
Anyways that CPUPower program is slick. Guess I can go ahead and take the benchtest calculator off my bookmarks. :)
What do you mean? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by elec999
If you're lucky, your mobo will POST if that's what you mean...
Or is this a Soviet Russia joke, the mobo maker post you?
Interesting....
http://img141.echo.cx/img141/6104/turione9tr.jpg
DH9E0 hmmmm...
Interesting, CBI picks up the revision information.
If someone with a desktop San Diego wouldn't mind checking their revision info with CBI maybe we would be able to determine if these are actually SDs or a different type of beast. I'm guessing if they are just SD cores stuck on a 754pin package revisions would be exactly the same (much like Oakville and Winchester, both DH8-D0).
Also kind of wierd that it detects hyperthreading. Has to be a glitch.
well the HT bit was enabled on the dual cores... maybe amd decided to put it in all the revE cores and we just didn't notice before? :confused:
I dunno, but would that show up in the task manager? I just didn't think they were capable of running two threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzimark
how'd amd get rights to hyperthreading???
i don't think intel can do anything about amd turning on a bit in the CPU-ID ;)
mats, i have no idea. but the HT bit has been enabled since the early northwood days.. before it had HT (not 100% sure, but i believe so. check the toledo thread)
AMD turning on a HT bit ?? What HT bit? Do I miss something ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzimark
K8 arch. certainly isn't capable of running HT because of pipe-depth
Multithreading is what AMD can easily do but not HT ...
It is an obvious misdetection ;)
vandi, nice eye. ff, yeah very intriguing. i am going to try and follow up on the cbid san diego revision codes because i really do want to know what the deal is with the turion line as well as the new 90nm mobile line that will be forthcoming. i posted on dfi-street asking rg or ag if they could please download the new cbid and post a ss of their 3700 and 4000 san diego cores. assuming they do that i will update here.
as to the hyperthreading, i am sure it is an error. (or perhaps amd having some fun)
also @ i found nemo. i think amd and intel have rights to each others property and patents for the next few years from an 10-15 year old settlement.(not that amd would use ht. just that they were they could use it without having to pay royalties or asking intel for approval if they wanted to.)
update: ag has already gotten back to my request. generation is 15.0 model is 7.2. revision is SH9E4. don't think the turion is based on san diego. (now the wait for the 90nm new mobiles)
AMN3200BKX5BU
AMN3400BKX5BU
AMN3700BKX5BU
AMN3000BKX5BU
You mean these are available now? As in ready to ship?
Sign me up for that 3400+ if the price is still between $250-275. I want another shot at these new CPUs....
tristancarton, looks like Turion are a different version of the San Deigo desktop core. Thanks for the confirmation, although I think were sure enough about this based on our poor results. :(
i'll bite too, though i'd like the 3700+ :D
(unless you think it will be in stores within 2 weeks, then i won't)
also, FF and tristan, i'm working on a revE oc database over at [H], would you mind telling me the 2nd line of the opn along with your max stable oc and the voltage it took to get there? thanks :toast:
AMN3200BKX5BU
AMN3400BKX5BU
AMN3700BKX5BU
Your guess is as good as mine as to when resellers will have them. ??????Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzimark
So the story continues... :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by fr0stedflakes
Make sure you start a fresh new thread when you get it, i'm waiting!
Turion seems to be for low power only.
vandi, fantastic news. can't believe you are going to help us out again. you are indeed the man. as for me though, i am going to wait till i get rid of one of the two cpus i have right now. (although i really do think these are the s754 san diegos we were looking for in the turion. gosh that 3700 looks damn appealing. 12x mult drool.)
ozzi,
TMSMT34BQX5LD
CABSE 0507 GPAW
right now max is at 289@9 (2601) @ 1.65 volts (sounds like really high voltage and is but only primes at around 40c)
Just got the new price list and ALL of the Turions are GONE! None left. Yet I still don't see any resellers selling them? They probably all went to Notebooks. Same thing will probably happen to these:
AMN3200BKX5BU
AMN3400BKX5BU
AMN3700BKX5BU
Nobody knows they can buy them unless they ask. Hell, I didn't even know about these until tristancarton showed the press release. These will probably go to notebooks as well and will go unnoticed by resellers. :( I'm poor right now so I can't be the first to find out.
All of these are in full stock:
AMN2800BIX5AR
AMN3000BIX5AR
AMN3200BIX5AR
AMN3400BIX5AR
AMA2800BEX5AR
AMA3000BEX5AR
AMA3200BEX5AR
AMA3400BEX5AR
AMA3700BEX5AR
thanks tristan.
vandi, i'll fire off an email to the suggestion department of newegg, and perhaps something to monarch too, though monarch never carried the mobiles, just DTR.
Good Luck. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzimark
You guys asked me to tell you when I saw Newark.That's why I want to go into manufacturing, producing things to make people happy. :) :banana: :banana: Hopefully you can get through to someone who will actually investigate the issue and not give you a stupid answer like the Venice/San Diego responses that I've seen. Once again, Good Luck and I hope they listen to you. :toast:
yeah, i know what you mean. i'm somewhat hesitant about things like that too, though from what i heard from FF and Tristan, you did a very good job :toast:
as a side note, both emails (to newegg and AMD tech support) went out about 5 min ago. hopefully i'll get a response by tomorrow.. wednesday at the latest.
I'm curious what AMD tech support tells you...Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzimark
honestly, me too. last time i asked them something, the email got bumped up a higher priority so that i could be told that "discussion mobile processor support in a desktop is not a supported action" (or something like that)
hahaha, i laughed when i saw that :D
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by ozzimark
I am glad Mobo makers ignored AMD and went ahead to support Turion unofficially. 25W Rocks! Makes me want to take off the IHS off of my 89W Opterons.
well, both companies got the emails, i got auto-replies thanking me for contacting them. haha, i doubt they really are happy that i'm asking crazy questions though :banana:
figured i would post this as well. seems gamepc has put up a review of the turion. i wouldn't say it is shining though. imo, it gets pretty smashed by the pentium-m. seems if you are going low power mobile you may want to stay with intel and desktop stay with amd. damn can't wait till intel kills their p4 line and goes all pentium-m architecture.
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_cont...urion64&page=1
oh yeah and they have the exact same problems as we were seeing in the overclocking field.
About the benchmarks, remember that the price difference between a MT-34 ($268) and a 770 ($660 store price, because Intel lists prices including chipset and wlan) is BIG. It should be compared to a 740 ($250), but the Turion doesn't look so much better even then anyway.
About power consumption, I'm guessing that the nVidia chipset uses at least 15 W more, plus that the mobo power regulators are designed to work with hot running 3700+ in mind, probably lower efficency at 25 W. I'd say the Turion is just as low power as the PM, but it's kinda hard to find a low power mobo for it.
BAH! i went to check newegg just a minute ago.
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Produ...ubmit=Property
see the 3700+? it wasn't there yesterday. my heart skipped a beat.
then i saw BEX.. and DTR :(
went to look at the picture to check, and sure enough, it's the DTR. :slapass:
Hi :),
What s the behaviour of the turion with 3x512 Mo ram ? 1T ? big fsb ? please tell me :slobber:
if you look back in the thread, the guys seem to be having troubles with ram, and could not get 3 sticks to work properly. perhaps this will be sorted out with a bios update, but for now... :(
There is no way to improve this :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by tristancarton
i think it is a bios problem at the moment. we will see if the support can be improved. i really hope so
Anything yet ozzimark?
as of 2 seconds ago, nope :(
well, here's what i got from amd. i'm not too pleased :slap:
hopefully the newegg email will come back soonQuote:
Hello Mark,
Thank you for contacting AMD's Technical Service Center.
Unfortunately, this office can only provide you with technical
specifications for AMD desktop processors only. For information
regarding your mobile AMD processor, please contact your laptop
manufacturer or get in contact with your local sales office
representative provided on the following link:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/0,,30_182_3559_710^762,00.html
, for further assistance with this matter. I apologize for any
inconvenience this may have caused you.
Regards,
Liza
Customer Support Analyst
AMD TSC
im not getting another 754 cpu anymore since my mobo is dead :(
so sorry no sub zero tests
aww, that sucks man. :(
what'd you do to it?
and an update, i've got a 3700+ on the way
thanks vandi! :D
ozzi, is it the new 90nm SSE3 Mobile 3700+ CPUs?! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ozzimark
yup :toast:
no more of this wretched clawhammer that refuses to go over 2.3ghz for me!
ozzi is it here yet?
Please dont forget to try on k8n neo. I'm stuck with 2 of em now. My platinum died so that's in rma bought a k8n-fsr for the mean while. Its the same board just no ieee1394 or SATA 1 & 2.
no, i don't think it'll be until the middle of next week or so.
i'll try the k8n neo for you though. i'm gonna have to update the bios though.. i think i was using 1.4b5, which doesn't play nice with the mobiles
Be sure to let us know how it does ozzi. Vandi's distributor was sold out of the 3400+, so it looks like it'll be a couple weeks (hopefully) before i'm able to get one of these new mobiles. :)
yeah, he told me about that. i feel bad that you didn't get one yet :(
but! i do! :D:D
further discussion with vandi puts the chip with me (hopefully) on wednesday. luckily, wednesday i don't have any classes, so i'll have all day from when the package gets in to play with stuff.
getting the neo working might take up most of my time though, as i have to install the clawhammer in it, flash to the latest beta bios (any recommendations guys? i've been out of the loop with the neo for a while. last i heard 1.52 is the first one with mobile support),then get the newark in, and get some screens from it. :toast:
then after that, i'll switch back to dfi (bios 4/15) and do some stability testing before i go oc'ing anything.
hopefully i'll be able to get some good results by the weekend
For people who still care, memoryexpousa.com has the Turion MT-28 2800+ for $199 right now.
Memoryexpousa.com has really funky pricing. I got a 2800+ Oakville from them for $112. Now they have a really good deal on 3400+ mobile Clawhammer for $183.
AFAIK, this is one of the few places selling Turion.
it's worth pointing out that the mobile you speak of is actually the 1.5v DTR part ;)
vandi, do i read this right:
TMDML40BKX5LD???
that's... the 2.2ghz turion? :toast:
Yeah, I noticed memoryexpo put the Turion up a few days ago. I actually emailed them about the new 90nm Athlon64 mobiles also, so we'll see what they have to say.
a size comparison to my clawhammer (sorry for the terrible picture)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...chmentid=29677
the newark itself.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...chmentid=29676
two pictures = 2,000 words.
i should have it by wednesday, hopefully tested on both boards (k8n neo plat and lanparty ut-nf3) by that night. :toast:
:banana:
:clap:
EDIT: Start a thread for it when you begin. Especially if the results look good.
i definitly will :D
also, i just checked fedex. it's on the way. it was awesome doing business with you vandi :toast:
:D ok
well, it's in! i'll make a thread on it later, but for now, i can verify that it works on both the k8n neo (bios 1.6) and ut-nf3 (bios 4/15)
awesome. we want benchies. we want benchies. hehe. j/k. post when you get the time and have decent results. just glad to see it in your hands and up and running. (once again vandi rocks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzimark
Yay!!! :banana: :banana: :banana: :toast:
tristancarton :toast:
I'm sorry if this seems rahter newbish but what thi deal with all these new chips the x2 and the sandiego and venice.
Whats so special about the turion?
Absolutely nothing. It's basically a San Diego that has been optimized to consume very little power.
Anyone have a notebook or laptop with a Turion yet, curious to see how or if they overclock on a mobile platform.
not sure if anyone has one around here, but for those looking:
http://global.acer.com/products/notebook/as5000.htm :toast:
Where in USA can i get Turion ?
http://www.memoryexpousa.com/amdmobilecpu.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by krojczy
fr0stedflakes want to seel his as well, you can see his results earlier in this thread. Turion are not the best overclockers in the world.
Mobile A64E<Newark> is a better choice for that although they're still quite hard to find.
does ozzimark uses the mobile a64 at venic core? does newark is the same as venic? would http://www.memoryexpousa.com/amdatmo28754.html be the good choice for OC? where can i get newark?
S939:
A64D 512 kB: Winchester
A64E 512 kB: Venice
A64E 1024 kB: San Diego
S754:
low power Mobile A64D 512 kB: Oakville (Probably a S754 Winchester, though I've never seen any good overclocks)
T64 512/1024 kB: Successor to Oakville (Special mobile core, not the best overclockers. Don't know the codename for Turion core, is it Lancaster? Just guessing...)
Mobile A64E 1024 kB: Newark (These are the closest to San Diego you can get on S754 AFAIK. Very new on the market, showed up shortly after T64 but I still haven't seen them i any retail store)
Since you're from Poland you could probably find a CPU in Germany or Denmark, like www.itbutikken.dk or www.shg.dk
good guess..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats
here you are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus
is it newark ???
More Turion Action.
I got this baby last week before it was announced. :D
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4...ionmt373qn.jpg
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4...rionopn2pb.jpg
I am running the official May 2005 BIOS for the DFI LANPARTY UT nF3 250Gb. I have been able to run Turions (Lancaster) and Newarks (90nm Mobile Athlon 64) on an old Asus K8V-SE with the latest BIOS. I don't have an Abit board so there is no way for me to find out.
Well , lets see some overclockin/benching action :D . Very nice . Just waiting ....Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandi423
Very nice indeed.
Also, I've done some more digging into Turion, and according to AMD tech docs, Lancaster and Newark are both based on the same silicon (rev. SH-E5). I believe that the early Turions were poor overclockers because it was a new low-power design, and AMD hadn't yet worked all the bugs out of it. But if the overclocking results of Newark are any sign, by about week 15 of '05 AMD had E5 cores that were very capable of running high speeds.
Just my $0.02. What are the full specs of your rig Vandi? I'm still running your old Turion MT-34. :toast:
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo
that will be nice (and whit vapo it will be nicer) :toast:
Try oc and post cpu mark, super pi and other bench.