heres a simple test with them for how they sound:
http://translate.google.com/translat...Ds%26prmd%3Div
the thing thats scary is they have a 4pin PWM option, but it pulls in like 13W, is that going to fry the mothboards PWM connector?
Printable View
heres a simple test with them for how they sound:
http://translate.google.com/translat...Ds%26prmd%3Div
the thing thats scary is they have a 4pin PWM option, but it pulls in like 13W, is that going to fry the mothboards PWM connector?
So you have an address in Japan or you used a MFS?Quote:
Originally Posted by bing
If the latter, which MFS did you use? Thanks!
LOL, hey that's a good point! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
I helped bing acquire the fans, and I'd be happy to help more of you out, but only for profit....and with the cost of these fans already being as high as they are, you'd be looking at more than they're worth IMO :(
I'd be happy to do a bulk buy for a lot of you for zero profit....but cost is still very high. Probably $60+ per fan depending on quantity.
One of PWM 4 wires fan advantage is, as long the psu is capable, just re-route the pos and neg wire directly to the psu, the fan will be powered directly from there, while the pwm and rpm wires still connected at the mobo header.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
So even the fan is gazillion watt and the psu is gazilllion watt capable as well :D, the fan speed control capability and rpm reading from the mobo will be the same with above wiring.
good point, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by bing
Yes, he is the guy ! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen
Hey that's true thanks for clarifying! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by bing
I have a sweet PSU, Seasonic X-650 :up:
Thanks for the offer, I might have to research for a bit longer...Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen
If I can't find one for cheaper elsewhere, then you might be my best option!
I just want to donate one to Martin, he helps everyone so much with his research.
Thanks again.
Looks like the high speed versions will be sold in US markets very soon......but only non-PWM by the looks of it :(
http://www.overclock.net/air-cooling...-typhoons.html
That video in that review clearly shown that even at minimum rpm-s (3500@7V :) IIRC) those GTs are clearly outside tolerable noise range for me. I'm guessing though that some 2x120 GTX rad with such fans would be able to cool heavily o/c-ed i7 and two fermi-s with good deltas :) (though so would other mega-fast fans, and does it really matter at that point if it's 50, 55 or 60db? - After all, it's silent range where i want to squeeze every extra bit of fan performance out of 'em)
You can see in a video I made for bing....the PWM version runs at about 2400rpm at the lowest duty cycle with Gigabytes CPU header....but with a proper PWM controller, at 0% duty cycle, the PWM version will run at about 1000PRM.....so, if you want the best, petition Scythe for the PWM version :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUZtA8Lp_j0
I'd rather petition Scythe/Nidec Servo for some 140mm GT with 700-1700 range, no matter what rpm regulation, via analog or via PWM.
^ But 140mm rads aren't that common yet are they?
Yeah it sux hard.... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen
It's looking more like I'll have to get it from you, if you're still offering?
What does "lowest duty cycle" mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen
What is a "proper" PWM controller?
Aren't recent top-end motherboards sophisticated multi-fan (pwm) controllers themselves?
Or are there still much better stand-alone controllers out there?
I'd prefer not to have "yet another device" in my build.
Especially one that takes up one 3.5" or 5.25" bay...
But if it offers much better reliability/flexibility than a mobo...
Then I'd be prepared to fork-out for a top-notch one.
Sorry for the million and one n00b questions :D
What I'd like to see is a bunch of people get together and order one large order through me, as opposed to me filling a dozen small orders for each person. In that case, it's only worth my time if I make a profit :( Not trying to be an ass, I'd like to help everyone out who wants some.....I just cannot justify the time/effort. But for one large order....I'd be happy to do it for zero profit :) Please send me a PM if you're interested :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
Concerning your questions about PWM....check out this thread :up:
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/s...d.php?t=641111
Totally understandable, I don't think you're being an ass at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen
If no-one else signs-up to get a: 29, 30, or 31 from you...
Then what sort of profit will you need so that I can order one (maybe 3) from you?
At this point I guess it's best to take it to PM, lemme know if you want!?
Thanks, looks like a epic thread!Quote:
Concerning your questions about PWM....check out this thread :up:
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/s...d.php?t=641111
Hopefully all these points of mine are cleared-up by it:
- What does "lowest duty cycle" mean?
- What is a "proper" PWM controller?
- Aren't recent top-end motherboards sophisticated multi-fan (pwm) controllers themselves?
Or are there still much better stand-alone controllers out there?- I'd prefer not to have "yet another device" in my build.
Especially one that takes up one 3.5" or 5.25" bay...
But if it offers much better reliability/flexibility than a mobo...
Then I'd be prepared to fork-out for a top-notch one!
Please take any discussions of group buys to PM - as that's not sanctioned by XS, and not part of this thread. Thanks.
Already there shazza, but thanks for the reminder :)
They are being made by all major rad manufacturers... So yes, they are pretty common these days. Picking a good fan, on the other hand, is difficult, though, due to the lack of reviews.Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
I wouldn't say "all manufacturers". Swiftech and XSPC have yet to release a 140mm rad and TC only has a single model out (PA140.3). Aside from that, there's Magicool, EK, and HWlabs...and HWLabs has sort of got the market cornered with crappy* rads for the time being.Quote:
Originally Posted by zalbard
*Crappy in the sense that most of them require high speed/noisy fans.
Ah, yes, my bad, thanks for correcting me, WL. :up:
Still, I think the selection is good enough to call them quite common, which is exactly what my point is. :yepp:
Thanks for the link, curious about the 2150 most, but it sounds like there are some manufacturing issues...bummer, that seems to be the missing gap too. Also PWM should have been part of the plan. Oh well, at least some more options in the high speed...it'll be interesting to see how well the 3000 undevolts..Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen
Waterlogged: Hmm, what's with HWLabs crappy rads? Imho their low FPI SR1 rad line is rather nice. Nothing forces to buy their high fpi GTS/GTX ones ..
PWM is a method of manipulating an electronic signal thru switching the signal on and off while changing the on and off timing, for this context with the illustration below, the top one is at full 100% duty cycle while the bottom one full flat 0% lowest possible duty cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
Attachment 110176
Actually any mid to top class OC-ing mobo should have plenty of fan's header that have PWM control at them, and for sure any new mobo starting from LGA775 generation, at least the CPU fan header already has the PWM capability since the stock cpu fan is 4 wires PWM fan, just look at the header, if it is 4 pins, its definitely capable of controlling pwm fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
About hooking up multiple PWM fans, actually you don't need to worry about adding the additional fan controller, if all your fans are 4 wires pwm type, you can drive multiple fans using just single fan header, and control all them from software. All you need is just a simple rewiring at those fan's wires, just re-reoute all pos and neg wires at each fan directly to molex wires from psu, while all the PWM wires from the fans are connected together at the mobo single fan header at the PWM pin.
While for the RPM sensing, these can not be join together, you need to connect each of the fan's rpm wire to every fan headers available at your mobo at the rpm pin if you want to monitor their speed. This is logical since the mobo can not tell which is which, also from the rpm signal characteristic, they just can't be mix together.
If you're using identical fans at the same place say like rad, all their speed should be similar at the same PWM dutycycle, and just pick one of the fan's rpm sensor and use it to represent all others fan's speed.
Interesting, I THINK I get it now, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by bing
As I suspected,Quote:
Actually any mid to top class OC-ing mobo should have plenty of fan's header that have PWM control at them, and for sure any new mobo starting from LGA775 generation, at least the CPU fan header already has the PWM capability since the stock cpu fan is 4 wires PWM fan, just look at the header, if it is 4 pins, its definitely capable of controlling pwm fan.
But it's not just the CPU fan-header, all fan-headers on modern top-end boards are 4-pin nowadays, aren't they?
*edit* no they're not :(
Why not connect each PWM fan to each of the PWM fan-headers instead of just one PWM header?Quote:
About hooking up multiple PWM fans, actually you don't need to worry about adding the additional fan controller, if all your fans are 4 wires pwm type, you can drive multiple fans using just single fan header, and control all them from software. All you need is just a simple rewiring at those fan's wires, just re-reoute all pos and neg wires at each fan directly to molex wires from psu, while all the PWM wires from the fans are connected together at the mobo single fan header at the PWM pin.
I have 2x PWM headers and will probably only have 2x PWM fans, the rest will be AP-15 & 14, which I believe are not PWM.
That way each fan gets power & passes/receives RPM/PWM signals independently of one another.
Of course any fan/s that are too powerful for the mobo's power regulation would need their +/- wires rigged to a molex connector.
And then be connected directly to the PSU, but otherwise....
Yeah this makes sense, thanks!Quote:
While for the RPM sensing, these can not be join together, you need to connect each of the fan's rpm wire to every fan headers available at your mobo at the rpm pin if you want to monitor their speed. This is logical since the mobo can not tell which is which, also from the rpm signal characteristic, they just can't be mix together.
Wouldn't it be better to have discrete RPM sensing for each individual fan?Quote:
If you're using identical fans at the same place say like rad, all their speed should be similar at the same PWM dutycycle, and just pick one of the fan's rpm sensor and use it to represent all others fan's speed.
e.g. if you have 4 fans on the rad, but all 4 fans are represented by only one RPM sensor, then you wouldn't always know if one fan dies!
I guess that's just the limitation of not having enough headers, sigh, perhaps longer-term I'll need a multi-channel fan controller.
can i convert a 3pin to use PWM?
and would i see any benefits it i could? (my current assumption is that the PWM lets the fan control how it handles loading the motor, so instead of undervoltage it might just turn things on and off rapidly. so there is no way to make a 3pin fan work based on PWM connectors if im understanding this right)
im kinda disappointed at my motherboard because it has a 4pin for the cpu, with a decent number of options for setting the speed, but it only works if all 4 pins are there. other system fan connectors do allow me to control the default speed, but only at 100, 75 or 50% and no dynamic tuning.
soon enough i might try to find a way to adjust my GT AP-15s via temperature, but i cant figure out the easiest, cheapest, or best way yet. (also it must fit in the case i have in my sig)
i knida know the answersQuote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
basically you can easily run the 4th wire on the motherobard IF you have 4pin PWM connectors. mine only has one, but there are some with like 7.
his idea is to try and run them all in sync, so if you have to read a rpm, just pick one and plug it in and ignore the rest. if you want to read the rpms of them all, you still can as long as each has its own plug
if you have extra PWM, you can easily use them up for more dynamic controls. but that might not really matter unless you have them for different needs (like intake fans might want to trigger max speed at 40c, and exhaust at 50c)
Lots of information here! Almost too much for me :( Is it possible that someone can lead me in the correct direction for my fan choice? I had 2 San Ace 109R1212H1011 which I put on a fan controller and ran them at 5v I think? I now have a TA 120.4 rad, and need 2 more of these, or should I go for a different solution?
How much do you need the ability to run fans at high speed ?? If you always run at ~5v then you are working in the 25cfm range at around 45decibels and a noise quality rating of 6
If you stick with 25cfm then the gt ap15 is running 6 decibels quieter with a sound quality of 7-8 but compared to your current fans maximum being 61 cfm at 60 decibels and qual. of 7 the the ap15 tops out at 35cfm very quiet at about 45decibels (similar to your current fans at 5v) and quality 7-8
Going the other route and having fans capable of high cfm the quietest at any comparable cfm is the Delta BUT the slowest it runs is around 35 cfm at which point it is 3decibels louder than the ap15 running full speed but mostly 5decibels or more quiet than the rest including the fans you have. It gets a quality mark of 6-7 when running slower but it can move a lot more air than your current fan at top speed. at the same noise output as your current fan running max the delta is 9-10 cfm more.
As things stand with the tests done so far for a fan up to 35cfm buy a gt ap15, for a fan 35cfm and up buy a delta. for something that overlaps these speeds buy two more of what you have.
BUT there is more testing to be done and maybe we (well Martin actually) will find the elusive fan that will do both reasonably fast and quite slow quietly
AP-15's are apparently still the best noise-to-CFM ratio....
There's now some GT's with much higher RPMs in the form of AP-29,30,31, but these aren't PWM capable, so it remains to be seen how well they under-volt.
If you don't care so much about noise and want some real blowers: san ace, delta, or there's even some 6000RPM GT's about (but must import so $).
This is what I'm hoping the new, higher RPM (PWM-aware), GT fans will be capable of.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldChap
Large variability of RPM, but excellent noise-to-CFM ratio maintained across that range.
It just sux that Scythe aren't making these versions available... :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldChap
Awesome info! I actually never ran my San Aces at full tilt and always ran them at the lowest possible voltage before they wouldnt spin anymore. Sounds like the AP15s are the fans I need to get. Would I need a fan controller for these as well?
I would say probably not if you have enough fan headers on your MB that are going to ramp the voltage up under load. Actually, considering the fact that at full speed the Gentle Typhoon ap15 is a very similar volume to your current fans at minimum you could choose to leave them at full speed all the time.
If you do run a controller then running slower, even though you will have more fans, will seem quieter and the main advantage is You will control them as and when you want.
@ OldChap, nice sumation of results so far:up:
@ Trice, the 109R1212H1011 is discontinued, I haven't been able to purchase new in the US. I had to get a 9G1212H101's, I use the M speed version as I don't need 2600 rpm.
You could probably find 2 more around here, post a thread.
I realy want a higher speed GT, I think I have a higher noise threshold than many. Or maybe I'm just going deaf.:p:
I have seen that Nidec makes a GT@2150, this is probably my sweet spot. Should be very good from 1500 and up. Since Scythe is selling AP15' like hot cakes,they probably have no insentives to offer a AP16:(
Since Nidec won't give us a 140 GT, we should hammer Scythe US Marketing Dept. for faster GT 120's, that they can easily get now:hammer:
FYI, I got several more tests done last night, although I had a little light rain. I'll see if the check in test was acceptable. Travelling out of town for the day, but if the check in is good, I'll start processing some new results tomorrow. Subjectively, it seems like the older Deltas were louder than the newer rev 3 models and the AFB1212HE rev 3 didn't want to start below 9v..
The only real interesting thing with PWM that jumped out at me was the slipstream ran from 500-2000 rpm which is quite a range and better that voltage control for range...noise I think was about the same per my ear.
OOh, thats good news:) I miss alot, live on the road mostly, work constantly:/Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
From what I've seen these industrial fan manufacturer's mostly do PWM on very high speed fans.
I should dig through Sanyo Denki's 120 PWM fans, might be a gem there:shrug:
Yeah, unfortunately thbey are not showing the 2150 GT model as one of the new options..nor PWM, but apparently that 5000 RPM version will PWM control down to 1000rpm.
Regarding using 3pin fans in a MB controlled system. I think it's possible looking at the 3 pin pwm controller I built from pcbheavens design. If I understand it right, it basically takes a PWM signal from the 555ic and uses a power mosfet to amplify it. Seems logical you could do the same thing to a motherboard pwm signal. Just need a mini circuit that draws 12v from a molex connector, and convert the MB signal to 3 pin PWM. That might be just the ticket in converting MB temperature control over to auto adjusting your favorite 3 pin fan.
I'm just not that comfortable with the electronic details to design the circuit myself...
So do you think 4 Scythes are best or just get 2 more San Aces and regulate them?Quote:
Originally Posted by OldChap
I'd suggest pulling up the video on each one, and compare the audio at like air flow levels. I think everyone has a slightly different preference on noise and noise level is only half of the story. GTs are a different sound, very low in noise level, but I also know of many people who really like the san aces at lower volts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trice
I personally don't like any of the 38mm fans at really low volts, but that just me. I'm also not entirly thrilled with the sound quality of the GTs. The noise they produce is absent of you typical wind like noise (which can be good or bad). I think it's the key to the lower noise levels, but it also makes the motor whine a bit more obvious since there really isn't much swooshing air type noise.
I'd pick the GTs myself over the San Aces..
THIS TESTING ROUND 6 IS CLOSED!!
I'm not quite sure what happened when I switched between the 120 rad to the 140 rad, and back again, but the results from this batch did not pass my 1dbA limit.
It was a good run, but this batch and all future test will not be comparable to previous tests...sorry guys. I was still getting starting dbA readings at 31.0...but something else has changed when I swapped rad templates and it's throwing the results off..
Anyhow, I figured this is a good place to cut off this testing round. I ran about 8 fans through this morning and I don't want to waste them, but I also don't want to include them if it's off this far.
Here is the failed check in....this next batch can not be compared.
Martin: out of curiosity, can it be that something changed for fan used for baseline after that many remounts? Or anemometer started showing different results? (as in to cross-check against old results with another fan), if not fan failing, in such cases why not adjust results adding or distracting delta of baseline/check-in fan results?
Not sure there is a 5k RPM...Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
This monster & the 5400 (pwm version) can get down to 1k RPM, but alas one has to import all these higher-end models :(
3-pin PWM, how is that possible, doesn't the PWM spec. call for a fourth pin?Quote:
Regarding using 3pin fans in a MB controlled system. I think it's possible looking at the 3 pin pwm controller I built from pcbheavens design. If I understand it right, it basically takes a PWM signal from the 555ic and uses a power mosfet to amplify it. Seems logical you could do the same thing to a motherboard pwm signal. Just need a mini circuit that draws 12v from a molex connector, and convert the MB signal to 3 pin PWM. That might be just the ticket in converting MB temperature control over to auto adjusting your favorite 3 pin fan.
So you're saying it's possible to integrate an add-on circuit which essentially allows your MB to control PWM (4-pin) fans, if your MB doesn't have any fan-headers that are PWM (4-pin) capable?
Could this circuit allow for higher amp fans, which would otherwise fry your MB if plugged directly into it?
Check in
I don't tthink it was the fan wearing, results were better, not worse. Also, a wearing fan will show high dbA throught, this was about the same to 2dbA better, although it does point the finger at the anemometer. I've had to change batteries a few times now, and I did again in this last batch. The face template spun around at a slighly different angle from before, so maybe the anemometer temp sensor is reading slightly different. Or ??
All I know is I got up way too early and was way too tired after the batch to throw the results away and start over and likely get the same bad check in.
I know ideally we would like everything comparable, but its just not practical after so many tests. I also don't believe in correcting results, that just invites the possibility of correction error and the video..I can't correct.
The nice thing about smaller batches is the group comparison it a lot easier to read, and I don't have to stress about the check in.
PWM
Yes, I think it can be done wih just one 4 pin MB header. If I understand the circuit, the power mosfet just sort of works like a relay (A switching power supply). Each MB PWM pulse simply activates the mosfet gate drawing power from the other power source(molex), so the power limit is really a function of the mosfet. I think with the right circuit and perhaps multiple mosfet and heatsinks on those mosfets, you could probably thermally drive as many fans as you want from a single MB header. It would only use the pwm signal to activate the power mosfet..the power would draw from the molex/power supply. You can do this same thing now using 4 pin pwm fans, you just have to wire the red and black over to the molex (same thing as the new swiftech PWM pumps).
Soo..yes a PWM fan is 4pin (power,ground,rpm,pwm sensor), but you can make a 3pin pwm fan controller..there is a downside though...no more RPM readout.
But, that's just my limited understanding, and I could be very wrong...just something I've been thinking about since I built the 3 pin controller. I just really want to explore a thermally controlled pwm setup and it would be great if I could just reuse my 3pin fans. It just doesn't make sense to run fans at full speed all the time or manually controlled. Let the motherboard do the work adjusting. Sure you can buy fan controllers that do this too, but I'd like to make my own as a fun project..:)
Martinm210: i just guessed that fan maybe culprit because it's not as simple +#% cfm, but a little bit different looking curve as well.
You could be right, maybe I grabbed tthe wrong SM fan? I do have a few lying around, and I've already made that mistake using an SL.Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
If that the reason I better mark that fan yellow or something..:)
I've been marking fans and other bits for a while now, helps reduce those 'Son of a...' moments. :)
Hey folks,
Just a few older posts missed by some of you, plus some newer ones I'm responding to.
Bing, if you got a minute could you please respond to these two (below):
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
Does this mean that if I try to run 1-or-more 5400RPM PWM GT's, off 1-or-more of my MB's PWM fan-headers...Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen
That I also won't get decent PWM control w/a duty cycle at 0%, & hence won't be able to lower it to 1000RPM?
Aren't motherboards with 3-pin headers essentially linear voltage controllers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
So any fans with 3-pins, you could just sit em on those headers.
Then you could up/down speed in a similar fashion to PWM, just not as efficiently?
And you could still get RPM feedback etc...
So you're saying that with this circuit...Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
One can have higher wattage PWM fans coming-off any 4-pin PWM header it's rigged to, than would normally be possible?
(I got 2x 3-pin and 2x PWM 4-pin)
Why not just connect the higher wattage fans directly to the PSU, does it get too messy?
I'd love if there was a way to make all headers on my mobo PWM-capable, but in doing so retain compatibility with any 3-pin fans.Quote:
Soo..yes a PWM fan is 4pin (power,ground,rpm,pwm sensor), but you can make a 3pin pwm fan controller..there is a downside though...no more RPM readout.
I just really want to explore a thermally controlled pwm setup and it would be great if I could just reuse my 3pin fans. It just doesn't make sense to run fans at full speed all the time or manually controlled. Let the motherboard do the work adjusting. Sure you can buy fan controllers that do this too, but I'd like to make my own as a fun project..:)
And hence have the choice of whether I want to keep RPM monitoring for those fans, or drop it so they can have PWM!?
Thanks all.
I'm not sure about the latest motherboards(my gear is over two years old now), but my DFI X48 only has static 12v feed out of the 3pin headers and one 4pin PWM header. The only difference between the two is that fourth PWM pin and I can control one PWM signal on temperature limits of the CPU. The power limit on that and the other headers is limited.
The whole idea is to take that one signal and split it out for many radiator fans, but instead of drawing power there, do so from the PSU. You can do that easily with 4pin fans now, just basic wiring.
But, to control 3pin fans, you would have to build a circuit to convert the signal to a 3 pin switching power supply type controller, if it's even possible..I'm just guessing. But again the idea is to automatically control the fans. I just know that my 3pin pwm controller I built loses rpm signal (gaps in power mess up the signal).
For simple manual feed, connecting directly to the power supply is best. And there are good fan controllers out there too, but I would recommend the voltage control types over PWM from my limited testing so far.
Martinm210: For 3-pin you mean something like mCubed's FanAmp which regulates upto 20W (from PSU) similar to voltage it's fed from motherboard fan header? (and i might be wrong, but IIRC it passed rpm signal back to it's regulating 3-pin aswell)
I'll check into that one, sounds like the same thing..:)Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
Thanks Martin!Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
I've PM'd my remaining Qns/responses, so as not to overrun this thread any more.
Nice,Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
It'd be sweet if my MB could auto-speed-adjust 3pin fans daisy-chained off this*, based on the MB's temp readings!
Instead of relying on the device itself, and it's probes....
Also I guess you'd only be able to send RPM data from one of the fans daisy-chained off it? :(
*alas it's not using PWM, but then I guess you'd have to give up RPM!
But of course. Multiple rpm signals will only confuse readings. That's why it makes sense to daisy chain same type of fans so that rpm signal of one of them would be indicative for all of them (and fans that should be regulated simultaneously for same speed, eg. all fans on some rad)
I'd prefer that it had multiple channels instead of having to daisy chain everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
I guess I don't mind small grps in each channel...
But ideally it'd have 10 channels so it can accommodate the most 3-pins I'd need, each on their own channel & with their own RPM feedback & regulation.
Finally I'd prefer that it interfaced with my MB (including future EFI ones) to get it's cue of when to regulate, & a few "quality" PWM channels to boot! :)
One can dream, sigh....
Bing/Miahallen, got a few minutes? If you do, thanks! :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalystHey folks,
Just a few older posts missed by some of you, plus some newer ones I'm responding to.
Bing if you got a minute, could you please address these two (below):
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
Does this mean that if I try to run 1-or-more 5400RPM PWM GT's, off 1-or-more of my MB's PWM fan-headers...Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen
That I also won't get decent PWM control w/a duty cycle at 0%, & hence won't be able to lower it to 1000RPM?
I still find it hard to believe Scythe is selling a 5400 rpm GT, and not offering the D1225C12B6AZ-00_2150rpm:shakes: WTF!
They can't even keep stock on the 1850, the 2150 would be as big of a hit. No problem getting lower speed GT's, there is a marketing lessen here Scythe!
Why the hell would the enthusiast community buy a 5400 rpm fan, in any kind of numbers? I would buy at least 25 GT's if I could get them in 1850 and 2150 rpm. And right now, I can't even get 1 in a speed I want.
Anyone here from Japan that can wake these guy's up:shrug:
But they are not PWM:down: They are selling them with a 4pin molex so people don't plug them into their mobo.:smoke:Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
Maybe the 3000 rpm will undervolt good enough, I hope so, it's a fan I want, but still can't get. Bet the 3000 sells out first;)
I can't buy a AP-15 anywhere I know of either.
Thinking about several of these~9S1212F4011http://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_d...1247018714.pdf
They are expensive, but I like the way the M version sounds. But more importantly, I can get them easily, pretty much anytime.
So there ARE pwm high rpm gts? Link please
yeah, but not in the US anytime soonQuote:
Originally Posted by Boogerlad
BTW, for those wishing for a simpler way to get hold of high-speed GTs maybe this new addition of GT AP-30 4250rpm to inventory of frozencpu might help. I doubt in it's minimum rpm still being in tolerable range for me or at that range it being better then GT AP-15, but well, for someone else, who knows.
Damn it, you just had to link that didn't you?:mad::p: I was hoping nobody would notice that until I got a couple of AP-29's for myself. ;):rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
Ya, not me;) I want a AP-29 to test, but doubtful.
FYI, was perusing fan controllers and noticed Sunbeam is planning a new one that plugs into the motherboard. It sounds like it would work like their old rheostats, but use the PWM signal to adjust??
Not sure, but it looks interesting. Are these available anywhere yet?
http://www.sunbeamtech.com/PRODUCTS/Rheosmart/6.html
http://www.sunbeamtech.com/PRODUCTS/...0/_MG_4658.jpg
http://www.sunbeamtech.com/PRODUCTS/...0/_MG_4695.jpg
I'm still not sure I'd like to control a water cooling setup via processor limits, but it might work and this would be a fairly simple way to make ordinary fans programmable.
I've had one of the older 4 channel sunbeams running for over 2 years straight now, so I've got some comfort with their controllers and liked the 0-12V range the old one provides.
If this works the way I think it does, I have to say: Genius. Eliminating the need for a seperate PWM module (ie a 555 timer) by using the PWM signal already used by the motherboard. The only thing I miss would be the possibility to control each channel seperately, but still based on the PWM signal of the motherboard. Still, it's nice to be able to use the motherboard to control more than one or two fans.
I found this a minute ago:
http://www.techreaction.net/2010/12/...an-controller/
This leads me to assume it is voltage regulation "VR" output:
http://www.techreaction.net/wp-conte...12/MG_2054.jpg
I would like to buy one to try, but I'm not seeing them anywhere yet.
It is selectable either pwm controlled or manual on each channel and
Should be released in shops in January (source: http://www.facebook.com/Sunbeamtech )
Thanks for pointing this out Martin,Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Sounds close to what I was describing a few posts back as 'fan control nirvana'! :D
It would be perfect but for the flaws already pointed out, and the fact that it must sit in a bay.
I don't really need the manual control :(
I hope mCubed makes a T-balancer similar to it, but without the need to mount in a bay etc.
Why isn't there something out there that suits my desires goddamit!? :)
Damn, it looks really good. PWM signal ensures no extra noise when undervolted, and it's fully hardware-controllable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Just hope it's not overpriced and I might pick one up! :up:
might come up with something interesting. design and prototypes of parts of the circuit are already up and running. just need to put all of this together.
as it will be microcontroller (PIC) based there is almost no limit. a few ideas i have in mind:
- connected to the system via usb and controlled by software
- fans could be controlled via voltage regulation or PWM, though my testing shows using PWM on 3-pin fans has some limitations. so i recommend using PWM only for real PWM (4-pin) fans
- fanspeed control either manual, related to any temperature readable by software or even controlled by motherboard fan headers
- regulation of fanspeed to target defined rpm, voltage or percentage if max speed
- able communicate with rivatuner hardwaremonitoring
- each channel will be capable of handling about 1.5A max in standard config and about 3A in high power config. keep in mind, even 1.5A are a total overkill as the most demanding deltas tested by martin will require not more than 0.8A!
- open for any ideas coming from the comunity
- no fancy look. will be some sort of a black box to be mounted elsewhere in the case AND will require a limited amount of airflow if high power fans are used
this is just a quick info with a few of the feature i plan to pack into it. will open a new thread when i have more to say ...
folks, give me another couple of weeks. was on travel the last few weeks so my project got delayed.
I would definitely be interested in hearing more about this!Quote:
Originally Posted by fgw
Not sure how you're going to pull-off some of the things you're suggesting, but so far it sounds pretty good "in-theory".
I've got a thread going here to determine if my MB is sufficient as a fan controller...
But also to determine if there's a dedicated controller out there that can meet my demanding needs, when I decide to ditch my MB in a few months.
Be great if you could share your plans there, or add your thoughts to my/others Qns?!
Be sure to let us all know when your dedicated thread's up!
Sounds like something like Aquaero/BigNG/TMS-200/Heatmaster. Is it worth to DIY such?
Nice!Quote:
Originally Posted by fgw
I look forward to it:up:
Here are my 2C on my own personal ideal fan controller. I would like a controller for 3 pin fans (complete compatibility with all fans) in the form of voltage regulation (superior for noise), that is controllable via temperature monitoring of water temperature. Ideally, it would be nice to have the ability to set both a lower and upper fan voltage and temperature. If someone wanted to go a step further, it would be nice if there was an LCD indicating current temperature and what the lower and upper ramp up limits were. I would also prefer this to all operate analog (not dependent on PC software).
Unfortunately the PWM sunbeam controller will only work for CPU temp, which may work ok, but I think for optimal smooth ramping up and down, it would be better(Less annoying sudden change in fan speed) to ramp up/down via water temperature.:up:
Sounds ideal to me, and simple really, sometimes thats best:up:
At least my Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3 board requires using Easy Tune 6 to define how PWM control is adjusted, automatic settings adjust duty cycle too high. This is how my cpu fan header controls an Akasa Viper (rpm range 600 - 1900) when using my own settings, auto settings never let fan go below 1000 rpm.Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
I would guess they purposely do this prevent accidentally turning the fan down too much and overheating.:shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
Why not get the 3000 rpm version, that should get down there w/mobo control?Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
FWIW, the folks over at cystalfontz say this about PWM minimums on their 3 pin PWM fan controller:
Although they use a different type of PWM (also 3 pin), I can actually feel the fan kick on and off with their controller at lower settings. Anyhow, apparently there is at least some thought that low PWM is also not good for the fan. Perhaps low voltage regulation is no better for that either, but voltage is better for sound quality from the little testing I've tried.Quote:
Limiting the minimum PWM duty cycle to 30% or 40% should reduce the mechanical and electrical stresses in the fan, avoiding premature failure.
I personally would rather get away from software all together and have an analog solution that uses voltage regulation. Anyone with multiple loops would probably want one control setup for each and may or may not have more than one PWM MB header and may or may not want to mess with extra software and background tasks to control that. I wouldn't mind if something could be programmed and shut down late, but I wouldn't like have to keep a process like easytune running in the background all the time.
this sounds as if they are using low frequency PWM. in this situation i can imagine it would be more stress to the fan and of course would generate this ticking sound. if PWM frquency is high enough (like intel spec which is using about 25kHz) there should be less to no ticking noise and no additional stress for the fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
but anyway, i agree, using voltage control will ged rid of this problems and some others. this is why i decided to use voltage control instead of PWM control for 3-pin fans.
4-pin (real PWM) fans should not have this issues and thus can safely run under PWM control given the PWM frequency is chosen high enough.
I guess I'm asking....Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
How do I determine whether my MB will be able to drop this fan down to it's lowest speed? (1000RPM)
What specs/features do I need to look for to ascertain this?
As judging by Mihallens post, it seems likely I'll have the same limitation.
But I want to be certain about that....
Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen
PWM control of fans with Gigabyte boards is hardware controlled by the SuperIO chip, software like Easy Tune 6 is only needed to change the limits of controller. It's enough to run ET6 at startup, that will load PWM controller with your own limits, after that ET6 can be closed. No need to constantly keep it running in background.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
PWM controller that the SuperIO chip has is actually pretty smart, it can be used both as PWM controller or a 128-step analog controller. Download IT8718F datasheet if you want to learn more about it.
^ Do you know if the Asus P7H57D-V EVO has something like this too?
Also I want to know if I run 2x of those faster (5400+)Nidec 120x25/38mm PWM fans...
That the 2x PWM headers on my MB can dial them down to the 1000RPM they're capable of.
checked the datasheet of this fans. keep in mind this fans draw a huge amount of current. you wont get that performance for free!
here we go:
5400rpm 1.1A 2.7A
4250rpm 0.6A 1.4A
3000rpm 0.2A 1.0A
the last (red) figure is the startup current! so if anybody is looking at this fans, make sure your fan header, either motherboard or fancontroller, is capable of delivering this amount of current.
compare this to the lower speed versions:
2150rpm 0.1A 0.5A
1850rpm 0.1A 0.4A
that's a totally different league!
on the other hand, i simply don't get why anybody is looking for such a monster? in my watercooling setup i currently run 3 sflex-f fans in a pull config. and this fans are running at about 8V which translates to approx 700rpm! you can argue my setup is not dumping a big amount of heat, but on the other hand my fans are running at 700rpm. also the use of AP15 on my rad will improve things further. but by no way there will be a need for 5400rpm fans at all!
also from looking at various tests, increasing airflow on the rad will decrease temps to a certain amount, but there comes the point where increasing airflow further wont decrease temps any further. at least not noticeably! so i doubt using such a fan on a rad, although pushing a lot of air through it, wont give the expected results in regards of temps!
for aircooling its not that much different. have a look at the reviews of coolers. some reviews show also the decrease of temps in regards to increased fan speed.
while increasing fan speed from below 1000rpm to somewhere near 1600rpm in most situations reduces cpu temps noticeably, increasing fanspeed further past 2000rpm might gain just a few degrees if at all.
dont think the magnitude of noise coming from fans running at this speed is worth it.
i think, finally you will end up running this 5400rpm monster at 1000rpm still at a very high noise level compared to an AP15.
i agree it, would be nice to have a little more power than the AP15 is delivering:
so i think the most interesting models are the 2150rpm and probably the 3000rpm versions with PWM control. unfortunately there is nobody selling them right now - at least i was not able to find somebody.
so i contacted nidec servo, well in fact it'is the european distributor, regarding this fans. had the idea of ordering them and distributing the fans for all of us.
what i got so far:
nidec produces this fans for the oem market, where nidec manufactures the fans at customers specs. usually the order volume is some 10k pieces!
scythe orders the fans from nidec in volumes of 50k units thus gets a decent price.
it should be possible to get this fans in lower quantities (eg. 100 units) and manufactured to the specs requested (PWM ,rpm sensor, speedrating, ...) but the price would be above 50USD still without shipping cost from here to you guys.
delivery time is another issue. as this fans get manufactured per order, there is a delivery time of 12 to 16weeks! this might be the reason why this fans are out of stock for some time now.
this is what i got so far. will get a real quote in about a week. but as said before, i don't think it will be of much use as the price will be far too high and deliverytime too long.
martin, sorry for highjacking your thread with such a long post ...
Martinm, glad to see you did a reveiw of the Treibwerks as well.
I have the LS models (1250) rpm..and one of the things I did notice or would appear to hold true, since I dont have the technical tools to test this theory with...
Im running mine as a pull only configuration, inside my HAF case 2x ek coolstreams ( yes I have 2 240 rads internally in a HAF 932 case) ;)..anyways it seems to me that my temps are a little bit lower, and im thinking from going by my initial loop setup with them in push* that they are a little quieter..... wonder if you have your testbed still set up to see if there is actually any differance with them in pull... thanx..
and thanx for all the time and testing you do for us to bring these kind of numbers for us to use when setting up our fans for whatever purpose they are used.
Thanks for all your thoughts, I actually do realise all this....Quote:
Originally Posted by fgw
But that doesn't stop me wanting to try one of 5400RPM's+, just to see how it sounds at 1000RPM.
If it's bearable it'd be nice to keep it at that speed, & ramp-it-up when going for big OC's.
Again, I do realise that there's a certain point where the volume of air hitting the rad. makes no difference.
In fact the particular rad. I'm using is specifically optimised for much lower noise/cfm fans.
So the improved cooling, compared to the increased noise, will be very minimal...
But that doesn't stop me wanting to see what sort of improvement I can actually get.
Plus if the fans become a mainstay, I can always change the Rad. used.....
I don't suppose you're able to answer the question which provoked this response of yours?
Much appreciated if you can!
I'm surprised by this....Quote:
Originally Posted by fgw
From communications I've had with them so far, many 'standard models' are available, alas their not always readily available in NA or Europe.
You seem to be talking about the 'custom models' they also make, to meet specific requirements of their customers.
But the 2150 and 3000 standard models don't fall into that category...
if you are asking if your mb will be able to control the fanspeed down to 1000rpm, i can't!Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
in theory it should work as long as we are talking of real pwm fans (4-pin fans).
besides that, your mb also comes into play. some mb's have a min pwm limit for safety reasons. they won't be able to lower pwm duty cycle below a certain limit. don't know if miahallen's gigabyte has such a limitation. may be this can be figured out with the userguide of the mb.
communications with whom? nidec servo directly, sycthe or somebody else? curious to see who is selling this fans!Quote:
I'm surprised by this....
From communications I've had with them so far, many 'standard models' are available, alas their not always readily available in NA or Europe.
You seem to be talking about the 'custom models' they also make, to meet specific requirements of their customers.
But the 2150 and 3000 standard models don't fall into that category...
just checked the website of scythe. the high speed fans are listed on the japanese site only and from checking the model numbers against nidec docs there are just standard fans no pwm versions listed. so i suppose the pwm version which is seen on the video was coming from somewhere else. nor the european neither the us scythe site lists this fans.
as they are not listed anywhere, i assume there was limited quantity ordered from nidec, thus they will be priced accordingly.
after all, i don't think we will see the high speed pwm versions at retailers soon ...
No idea, you should first find out what kind of controller your MB uses, at least older Asus boards seem to use Winbond chips. When you know the exact type of SuperIO chip then you dig up a datasheet for it and check which kind of controls it has.Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
I'm not sure, I think to have anything conclusive to that degree, you would have to test thermally. The only way I can test with my current rig for noise is in push. A test in pull will have the radiator obstructing and muffling the noise, so it would be very much apples to oranges. Also with CFM based testing, I'm completely missing air distribution or shroud effects on thermal performance, and that's pretty important with the TFC fans since they have a built in shroud in pull that theoretically "Should" help distribute the air flow more evenly. I tested those fans in pull in my Monsta radiator review, but that didn't account for noise...only thing I could compare was the performance per RPM which is of little use.Quote:
Originally Posted by flashnc
I would suggest trying it yourself and see, it's possible things like the actual case air flow may also have an impact.. I'm not really interested in doing any thermal based testing right now...it just takes too much time and I can't really test noise at the same time with all the data logging requirements.
Anyhow, regarding this thread. I think I've got a method for converting the round 8 results into this group. I've just about got everything tested now, so that leaves the window open for cleaning up my summary mess and I'd like to get as many fans in the group as possible.
My next interest will be to explore the myths around shroud use and noise... Not sure I'll have much time over the coming weeks to do testing with the Holidays, but we'll see...not committing to anything but enjoying the fire and drinking some good eggnogg..:D
Happy Holidays Martin
Attachment 110494
Happy Xmas and im waiting these shroud testing :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
That smiley looks like it's been hitting the nogg already. :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by the finisher
Okay thanks for explaining this, I'll scour my manual for any upper & lower limits on PWM duty cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by fgw
Failing that, I'm not sure how else I can investigate this, hopefully Asus email support is decent!!
Okay will do, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by mm67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
Attachment 110518
I looked for that one for a while :toast2:
I've been trying to find other sources, than some Online US retailers for Nidec GT's. Still can't buy AP-15's that I know:confused: So far no luck at all, About the only industrial brand I can't find online, in US.Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
I knew it! I've got 2xSanyo Denki San Ace 9G1212H101 38mm and they are worse than the discontinued Sanyo Denki San Ace 109R1212H1011 38mm.
The noise profile of 9G1212H101 is worse and it produces higher vibrations than my Panaflo FBA12G12H. I've got Zalman ZM-F3 too and it is a great fan. Great roundup, Martin!
FYI,
AndreaBZ has been busy updating the database viewing spreadsheet..thanks:up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBZ
I haven't checked it out yet (Having PC troubles again, DFI sata port problems and I'm looking to upgrade hardware now), but let me know if you see any issues with the fan sheet.
Very impressive work Martin, you've done a great job of producing both objective numbers, as well as allowing people to make their own subjective conclusions from the video recordings.
You've helped to solidify my decision to go with the Gentle Typhoons for my build as they have the best noise/CFM ratio in the quiet range of fans, which is fantastic since I'm aiming for a quiet build for my next rig. Now I just need to figure out which ones to go with, -15, -14, or -13... :)
Not sure if this will be of value to anyone but I happened to stumble across this yesterday while doing research for my own little project.
http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/pr...ew/?id=350605#
I ordered one similar to that on Ebay for DC motors, but the PWM frequency was too low. The one I got may be useful for other motors, but was no good for fans. The PWM squeal was very strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I think unless they specify the PWM frequency being 20-25Khz+, then you may get the same thing I did.:shrug:
I know the Bing controller has notes about being set at 25Khz although I think it varies to some degree. It just needs to be above the ear audible range.
Interesting, the one Waterlogged has linked sure looks different/better to the ebay one.:shrug: WL any specs on that part?
I found this little gem for running my S.A. 140's to 24v, any thoughts?
http://intheyear2525.ecrater.com/p/2...rter-12-to-24v
Hm, it doesn't look like it'll be of any value because I just found the assembly PDF that I can swear wasn't there when I first posted the link.:shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by the finisher
http://www.vellemanusa.com/downloads...k8004_rev3.pdf (look at page 2)
Only 5000hz, Bummer:(
I wonder how this compares to the one WL linked to?Quote:
Originally Posted by the finisher
Bummer :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
That might work...maybe run it by one of the electronics guy. My trial and error success at buying these things is 0 for 1, so I'd hate to recommend anything.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by the finisher