Can anyone rate the primochill Typhoon III?

Thanks for the update BG and I like the new designs.
I have 2 T3s both of which leak from the sides.
I live in the uk so I expect primochill or the retailers I purchased the T3 to honour the warranty.
The T3 I lately purchased has the Allen key fixtures for the pump retainer and the missing yellow band but it still leaked onto my fan controller and bluray drive.
It is still in my Pc as I have no more time or funds to replace it with something else. So it currently has being packed with tissue either side to absorb the leaks while being topped up with fluid every few days.
Quite the annoyance but what else am I to do as primochill have ignored my emails.
I am sure nobody is blaming you but primochill should hang their heads in shame.
I have not overtighened the screws at the side, it's obviously a fault of materials bring used and I am glad that that problem has been changed.
I have invested a small fortune in your design and primochill have failed me.
If they want my 2 T3s then the retailer can send them back as I have already paid the expensive shipping charges on one of the black T3 faceplates and don't need to do that again.
I will stop typing now as I can feel myself getting really annoyed over the whole situation and don't want to say something I will regret.

I had to import my T3 from a US distributor to Australia. No one in Australia had stock at the time of my purchase. It wasn't until I received my T3, put it into my build, and just before final assembly, I find this post on XS regarding the units leaking. After that I had a decision to make, continue using an item in which I no longer had any faith in, as I had just spent thousands of dollars on hardware that could be all ruined, or fork out the money a second time and get a product I had faith in. I chose what I think was the right option, I took out the T3, reboxed it, ready for its return to manufacturer, and went with an alternate product that I know I can trust. I'm happy to exchange my old T3 which I have no faith in, with a new revised version, or perhaps for one of those new reservoirs that BG is showing. I don't have any hard feelings towards Primochill or Brian, the concept of the T3 is brilliant, and to me it ticked all the right boxes, its just a shame that the product didn't live up to its expectations for reasons outside Primochill's control. I really hope that Primochill and Brian can instill some confidence back into the enthusiasts who purchase their products. Hopefully the new version of the T3, and the reservoirs that BG have shown will accomplish that.

My original design for the T3 as submitted had more material in the mounting locations for screws. The Chinese company said that when material is too thick it can "slump" when the part cools causing like a little dent on the surface. My argument at the time was that if there was a tiny molding related depression or dent on the back it was not a big deal...it was the back. Keep in mind that on the T3 there is no hidden side like a bottom or unseen inside because the part is clear. In the conversations that went back and forth they constantly kept trying to thin out the wall thicknesses all over the part and I kept saying no no no because one of the design goals Brian wanted was a heavy or quality feel to the part. They were the experts on injection molding not me so most of my input likely seemed like whining I am sure.

One thing I have noticed with China is that the Walmart culture or mindset we have here in the US is even more prevalent in Chinese manufacturing. On the T3 project their argument was always along the lines of "part too thick...add $.23 cost per part. very bad." Sorry for the "Chinglish" not trying to be disrespectful. My point was that they just could not fathom why anyone would want to put twenty three cents more into a part then they had to. To be fair, on 5,000 parts your only looking at $1,150 but on say 250,000 units its over 50K. Value line manufacturing is not about finding a single big $3-$4 savings somewhere in the manufacturing process, but rather lots of little $.23 cent (or even less) places to cut costs and that is what China is good at.

For those of you worried about T3's already purchased, please remember that only a small percentage of parts are or had issues. If your worried I suggest mounting your T3 in a case sans components and running it for a day or two...which is a good idea for ANY cooling loop even though most of us don't normally do it.

OK, Brian just messaged me and apparently he is aware that some people just do not like using the trouble ticket system for whatever reason so he set up t3rma@primochill.com so anyone with an issue can contact him directly. He said, "just trying to make sure that no one gets left out because of language or location", so any customers overseas in Spain or Australia etc. are covered. I asked if they were going to require foreign customers to pay to ship RMA units back to the states and he said no, just email a few pictures as proof of purchase and that they would also cover shipping of your new T3.

Now that's what I call excellent customerservice :D.

I just got the email from Brian.
So thumbs up to them for pulling out the stops and looking after me.
I will be purchasing your premium T3 as soon as it's available for definate.
Even if Brian could take a reduction off it and ship that to me instead would be great but not expected to be honest.
Will the premium T3 be available in different colours BG?
I would love black and red to match my cosmos s case, EVGA classified MB with black and red chipset WC and red edition GTX295.

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Originally Posted by Barso

I just got the email from Brian.
So thumbs up to them for pulling out the stops and looking after me.
I will be purchasing your premium T3 as soon as it's available for definate.
Even if Brian could take a reduction off it and ship that to me instead would be great but not expected to be honest.
Will the premium T3 be available in different colours BG?
I would love black and red to match my cosmos s case, EVGA classified MB with black and red chipset WC and red edition GTX295.

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8 delrin body colors and 2 aluminum colors to start with some sexy new anodized aluminum face plate and motor mounting ring colors coming from time to time.

I am sure black, blue, and red will outsell the rest but it is still nice to have a choice for a change...I kinda like the orange =)

Stop putting pictures of an orange one in my head!
An orange one sounds to good to be true.

glad things are looking up

Good to see so many positive updates since I last checked these forums.

I'll just wait for my turn on the RMA. I'm sure they're quite busy.

BG,

The new res's are hot man.

thanks for the info also. You too DB. Much appreciated.

Well we've got info about so many new products all at once and all spread out over three different threads so I'm sorry if you have already provided this info but what is the ballpark ETA on the premium T3's?

The Split Window single bay in single and dual chamber is going out to resellers now and will be available withing a few days. The dual bay version (no pump) in single and dual chamber should follow shortly along with the T3 Premium. I was told 2-4 weeks depending on when the new metal compression fittings are done.

got a questiion or a solction for you. Dunno if any ones suggested it to you though.

Why dont you insted of tapping the plastic or useing plastic screws, add a slither of metal to the side of the Res and then tap 2 holes for mouting. that way even if some one does over tighten them they are not doing it to the plastic totaly preventing it happening at all.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/720/anidear4u.jpg

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Originally Posted by mlwood37

got a questiion or a solction for you. Dunno if any ones suggested it to you though.

Why dont you insted of tapping the plastic or useing plastic screws, add a slither of metal to the side of the Res and then tap 2 holes for mouting. that way even if some one does over tighten them they are not doing it to the plastic totaly preventing it happening at all.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/720/anidear4u.jpg

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That's an excellent idea for the sides, but I don't think it would work for the back where the pump mounts. It would also very likely have to be added post injection molding which has a few issues. In the T3's current configuration there isn't enough room width wise for the plates on either side as they would have to be say .125" thick minimum to be effective which translates to .25" of extra width.

If you bonded them in post production that would mean an adhesive would be needed that could bond aluminum to acrylic. The clear plastics like acrylic and poly carbonate are difficult to bond to anything but themselves, even to other plastics.

If you used a bearing plate in a new design and made provisions for them in the molding process then you would have to deal with expansion. The issue with the inserts was that when they are overtightened even a little, then exposed to temperature variations they expand and contract at a different rate then the plastic. In an item the size of the insert that expansion expressed as a percentage is not all that big, but a plate say 1.5" long that expands in length even a small percentage is likely way beyond what the surrounding plastic could handle without fractures.

Load bearing plates or "force spreaders" are an excellent idea in general, (they are used extensively in marine and aviation engineering for example), But plastics are a whole other beast, and as I have learned, clear plastics are even worse, and if your wanting to use optically clear plastics like acrylic or poly carbonate...may as well brace yourself for a bumpy ride as the manufacturer. The next time your in a store look around at the products there and see how many injection molded parts that you would consider "complicated" as in significant dimensions in all three planes or not "mostly flat" you find that are optically clear. Wont be many and of the ones you may find, most will not be a critical use type item like a reservoir.

I know I will never design one again...just too much work to get them dialed in production wise.

Thank you for taking the time to think up possible solutions and even more time draw them out.

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Originally Posted by BoxGods

T3 failure rates were climbing up close to 5% -- pretty good for low volume production...unless your one of the unlucky guys in that 5% (and unacceptable in my opinion for water cooling parts). I was unable to repeat the cracking issue here in my shop even over torquing the pump mounting screws by 25% which is pretty hard to do. I COULD get them to crack with Ethylene Glycol fluids but only two of the 5 parts I destroyed cracked at the inserts for pump mounting which seems to be where most failures are happening, and ALL the glycol added test samples cracked all over the rez, not localized just at the screw inserts. My unofficial testing wasn't uber scientific of course but I have parts to burn and I am pretty good at breaking stuff.

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Hey BoxGods, how long did you leave the test subjects torqued? When I received my Typhoon 3 it was perfect, not a crack in sight at any inserts. It wasn't until a month later when I had to work on my system did I notice there was an issue. I don't think it's an issue you will see instantly, even when over-torquing the screws, but rather by the stress of torque over time.

^^My case also. I was very careful not to overtighten any of the screws but the area around at least one of the pump mounting screw inserts is beginning to crack. It's been installed for about 5 months and I don't know exactly at what point the cracking started, I only just recently noticed it when all the cracking was being reported by other users.

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Originally Posted by rogueagent6

Hey BoxGods, how long did you leave the test subjects torqued? When I received my Typhoon 3 it was perfect, not a crack in sight at any inserts. It wasn't until a month later when I had to work on my system did I notice there was an issue. I don't think it's an issue you will see instantly, even when over-torquing the screws, but rather by the stress of torque over time.

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That points to the expansion/contraction rates I mentioned.


I am not sure how they (plastics company) do accelerated testing--rapidly heat cycling for expansion/contraction, bombing parts with UV...all that stuff takes special (and expensive) equipment I don't have, and unfortunately could never justify. If I had to guess most of it is done in software these days.

My testing is pretty unscientific in that I just beat on parts. I do have T3's that have been in service for almost 6 months for what that's worth. When I do the actual designs in Solidworks it has modules for stress testing and analysis that allow you to enter the material/s and projected loads etc to find any areas that need changes. There is also a module for sustainability. The companies that supply the actual plastic pellets review the design and recommend materials. They have mountains of data on the products they sell that I plugged into Solidworks. Its excellent for what it is, but I am guessing nowhere near the caliber of software used at the better molding companies.

Short answer...I have no idea how they test. Wish i could give you some super scientific answer or show pictures of some sort of robot that cycles the part 100,000 times but the reality is its numbers like modulus of elasticity and expansion and lots of other stuff crunched by software.

I am an old guy with smart hands so I use something called T.L.A.R. Not to toot my own horn but if I made a list of the things I expressed concerns over at the outset that were based on simple common sense (like the Company in China drastically reducing the amount of material around the inserts, where they located spru'es and ejector pins, and removing some chamfers and radius's (like at the openings of the rear ports for example) and compared it to areas that caused problems...smart hands did not do too badly. :D

To be fair, I also made a few really stupid mistakes. Like leaving off notches or channels on the sides for cases that have rails...

BoxGods, in your post you mentioned about using UV to check on the res, can we do this with conventional UV LEDs/Cold Cathodes? I haven't placed my T3 in my case yet, so I would like to know if I can check for possible failure points before putting it in.

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Originally Posted by BoxGods

To be fair, I also made a few really stupid mistakes. Like leaving off notches or channels on the sides for cases that have rails...

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Haha! I ran into that too, but it wasn't something a dremel to the case couldn't fix. ;)

But anyways, I was just wondering on the testing methodology, and after what you've said about the company in china I'm just going to chalk it up to shoddy work on their part.

Nice to see you back around BG. That split window looks really nice. :up:

Glad to hear new T3s are making their way back out to customers. :)

Replacement T3 dispatched by Brian.
Well done Brian, thanks and much appreciated.
I will be purchasing a premium T3 from you as soon as they are ready.

Just got in the updated T3 today. Still has some of the cosmetic blemishes but i didnt mind them at all. it also came with some plastic thumb screws to mount it to your case (2 diffrent lenghts one for acrylic cases and one for regular metal cases) and a set of thicker orings. since there is apperently a change to the outlet and inlet ports as well. also in the box is a letter explaining what has been going on with the T3's untill recent. only complaint i have is that its not a top fill version like i originally ordered...but oh well at this point i will just cut my losses.


http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/a...newt3stuff.jpg


http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/a...newt3front.jpg


http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/a...zico/newt3.jpg

First off I want to thank Boxgods for helping me rma my first T3 (first gen with glue strip) that developed cracks. Booted up my pc today and i hear the "Cyclone" and air in my system, and i look to find this... :-(

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/a...krh/t3res3.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/a...krh/t3res2.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/a...krh/t3res1.jpg

The crack is at the joint of the divider inside the res for the in/out ports I cant get a pic of it till i drain my system. I also found a few other cracks i never noticed before at the pump mount and rail mounts, even tho I never tightend the rail screws down for fear of that. Its too bad, guess I wait till the new split system comes out, till then i get to claim my wife's pc again orz.

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Originally Posted by Silverhawk

BoxGods, in your post you mentioned about using UV to check on the res, can we do this with conventional UV LEDs/Cold Cathodes? I haven't placed my T3 in my case yet, so I would like to know if I can check for possible failure points before putting it in.

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The light they used in California to check the ratio/content of the UV stabilizer (not POSITIVE on the name...it might have been "inhibitor") is some sort of full spectrum setup where they can set the light to a very specific frequency.

Unfortunately it's a very expensive set up. (more then I can afford anyway). The light I have at my shop is not adjustable and is in the 350nm to 450nm wavelength range if I remember correctly and was *only* about $1,000 US. Once we found out about the issue of some parts having too much of the UV stabilizer ingredient it was suggested that I could just go through the parts I had here and essentially pluck out the ones that glow--at least to get 7-8 units for people waiting on RMA's. The problem with that was that only the most extreme cases showed up using my light so parts that were still questionable might pass, so the choice was made to just scrap them.

Also, although it does not show up in the picture I posted earlier, there was a sort of marbling like effect in some parts where you could see glowing like streaks or veins, like the pattern in marble where the stuff was not mixed in thoroughly I am guessing.

I also need to point out that lights that work in the spectrum we are discussing here are VERY DANGEROUS. If you DO use lights like these to look at your part, please read all the safety instructions, wear approved UV eye protection, and cover ALL exposed skin with a material that blocks 100% of UV light.

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Originally Posted by rogueagent6

Haha! I ran into that too, but it wasn't something a dremel to the case couldn't fix. ;)

But anyways, I was just wondering on the testing methodology, and after what you've said about the company in china I'm just going to chalk it up to shoddy work on their part.

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I can't tell you how embarresed I was when somebody pointed out my mistake on not including that notch...I have never used a case with those optical drive installation "training wheels" before. My initial reaction was to say well just either bend the little tabs back or cut them off because to me that would be a 10 second easy fix, but the reality is I have to own that little design flaw 100%...I just missed it plain and simple.

I also would like to point out that although my PERSONAL experience with injection molding in China was pretty bad and that I would advise any company even considering it to pass, I have had other experiences with Chinese companies that do other types of manufacturing that were trying but ultimately yielded good results. Don't write off the whole country. As long as your aware that their idea of high quality is seldom going to align with what the western world would view as high quality and that you will need to push, you will be fine.

I sort of look at it like this. In China the parts start out pretty crappy but you can get the quality up there with some effort. In America the parts start out perfect...and quality goes down from there without just as much effort...

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Originally Posted by millertime359

Nice to see you back around BG. That split window looks really nice. :up:

Glad to hear new T3s are making their way back out to customers. :)

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Me too! :D

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Originally Posted by az'rail

Just got in the updated T3 today. Still has some of the cosmetic blemishes but i didnt mind them at all. it also came with some plastic thumb screws to mount it to your case (2 diffrent lenghts one for acrylic cases and one for regular metal cases) and a set of thicker orings. since there is apperently a change to the outlet and inlet ports as well. also in the box is a letter explaining what has been going on with the T3's untill recent. only complaint i have is that its not a top fill version like i originally ordered...but oh well at this point i will just cut my losses.

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Nah, that is just not acceptable. If you had a top port before, your replacment should ALSO be one. If you haven't installed it yet and you can hold off, I will make you one (I build ALL the top port models anyway) as soon as I have parts in from California and trade you. Brian only had one top port to send out and likely just wanted to get you a replacement out asap since it has already been so long. Just PM me for my email and I will let you know when I get parts in to make your top port.

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Originally Posted by kaytaro

First off I want to thank Boxgods for helping me rma my first T3 (first gen with glue strip) that developed cracks. Booted up my pc today and i hear the "Cyclone" and air in my system, and i look to find this... :-(

The crack is at the joint of the divider inside the res for the in/out ports I cant get a pic of it till i drain my system. I also found a few other cracks i never noticed before at the pump mount and rail mounts, even tho I never tightend the rail screws down for fear of that. Its too bad, guess I wait till the new split system comes out, till then i get to claim my wife's pc again orz.

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Yeah...the inserts strike again. SORRY. Very sorry. Make sure you use the email for RMA's posted in this thread or start a ticket at Primo.