I heard some guys will be benching for the Team Cup... :D
I'll send you a PM later. And don't worry about K7 32M, someone else is working on it. ;)
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I heard some guys will be benching for the Team Cup... :D
I'll send you a PM later. And don't worry about K7 32M, someone else is working on it. ;)
count me in for something, not sure what atm, but I will fill in what is left.
backups backups backups backups
I should have LN2 by the last week of June since I finally got a job. :D
I'm weaker in K8 than I would have liked...
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6...une8th2012.jpg
Very nice scores guys! And awesome Computex action, Solid Snake! :up:
And thanks a lot to BeepBeep2 for the first XS submission to the Team Cup! :)
Okay, so that was horrible. I wasted about 7 Lbs of DICE to accomplish nothing.
I was able to pull pot temp down to -40c and still boot, but using clockgen to change clocks meant a lockup? O.o Then, CPU temp readings were around 30c in software...
At -20c, I had about 10c idle in software but it was no better than what I had with straight ice in a bucket...
Then I was unable to pull the same clocks I could at that temp than I could with ice in a bucket...
I think I'm just gonna move on to K10 and revisit K8 again with LN2.
Well, added K10 32M on DICE entry to the Team Cup SC4.
Currently 2nd, I expect 1st with LN2 I might get creative and put LN2 on dimms too, but I don't have a ram pot...might just pour LN2 directly on them, or in aluminum foil over them :D
what did you use as a buffer? dice should be pulling down to -65 to -75c if done right.
When I said -40c, I was talking about K8, my A64 X2 5600+ Windsor, which most have a 0 to -15 cold bug...I was able to pull pot base to -40 and still boot up, but I was unable to change frequency for example in windows or run 32M.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenEffect
I use Klean Strip S-L-X Denatured alcohol, just enough to fill holes in the pot and a little more. I've used it since doing dice for the first time. Doesn't get thick or anything, very thin even when there is a lot of DICE in the pot. Bubbles like crazy...essentially it is 1/2 ethyl alcohol, 1/2 methanol...freeze point about -100.
For K10, average base temps were about -60 idle and -53 load, -62 idle when going for CPU-Z valid with 1 core activated. Not sure how accurate my probes are, but they are accurate at room temperature. I had mostly a powder of dice, but some were small chunks.
Checking back on my 1100T DICE result on HWBOT I reported -59 idle and -53 load. My probes read about -169 to -173 full pot idle on LN2.
what does your probe read when you dip it into the ln2? I only have 1 probe that reads below -190
I believe it reads about -180, will check again on Monday.
Bought badatgames18's 30L dewar, late 1950s model from Linde/Union Carbide. No dings in it, but shipping was rough, hope the vacuum is still good.
If things go as planned, then I'm looking at 955 BE on LN2 on Monday :D
I take it everyone is too busy to bench...not many new submissions for anything at all on the bot.
I'm taking on SC4 alone and nobody is overclocking for SC2 yet ><
I know I'm not from the hwbot xs team, but writing this just for the heads up.
Well, my team is very small (4 people) and I'm going to handle all AMD's, but have no intel chips (except s1155) and probably my team will have 2 submissions in SC2 or none at all. We just don't have many Core2 cpus if any at all.
So, just bench for fun :).
You've done some really impressive stuff with the AMD chips ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by I.nfraR.ed
I don't have K6, I have a low-end 1600+, but to overclock it I'll have to use a pinmod.
955 Black Edition with CBB at -110, CB at -120.
HT Link @ 1000 helps, but every time I screw up I have to heat cycle the pot again, wasting a lot of LN2 and I haven't even gotten to Windows yet.
Well, that sucks. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
That doesn't sound like a Phenom II at all, maybe it's a Core 2 in disguise... :D
I.nfraR.ed kind of tipped me to something grand master chew* said once about a cracked core and CPUs coldbugging before dying completely.
On try 1, I heard some weird cracking noises when pulling temps down...Of course, I wondered what it was but otherwise payed no attention to it. Day 2, same coldbug but I couldn't get it to post again after warming a second time.
Hasn't posted since...threw in 565 BE and it booted right up.
My parents aren't very happy and I'm out of money, but hopefully I can get one more of these before the end of June.
Chip died completely at stock settings under LN2... :(
I'm sorry to hear that, any chance of RMAing that chip?
I found another kit of BH-5. It's only 2x256MB unfortunately but it might still be useful for something... :shrug:
Nah, I'm not gonna RMA it. After 1.8v on dry ice I don't think it would be fair. Taking the IHS off it instead now.
I have another 955 and a 965 coming so not all hope is lost. They are so cheap these days >< not disposable but very affordable.
EDIT:
Well that was horrible.
A little of the die came out okay, the rest got stuck to the IHS and it sounded exactly like it did when I heard the popping on LN2 as I pried it. It even ended up pulling part of the PCB. ><
I heated it to 200c, I guess that wasn't enough to melt the solder soft enough. It was pliable, kind of sticky.
IHS solder is most certainly indalloy (indium and tin) and melts at around 120C - maybe the die was cracked already, or maybe temp was too high and solder between die and substrate melted?
mass production do not use pure indium as it melts at a higher temp...
though they use indium alloys, I think they still use epoxy to make sure it sticks onto the die. thats why prying off the ihs is incredibly difficult.
I don't know...IHS temp was around 150c when I tried.
I couldn't pry it off easily. PCB bent a lot.
I had 3 of the blades that go into box cutters/utility knives whatever you call them and I wedged 2 under the IHS on each side, set oven to ~200c and waited until CPU was at 180 before I tried.
It took like 5 tries and it turned out horribly...
Alrighty everyone...
I'm getting a fill on Monday, when my two Phenom II X4's are supposed to be here.
If anyone has decent DDR in North America, that can ship in 3 days or less before the end of the month for the sake of the team then I will OC my T-Bred with a pinmod.
If not then I will just run to get a submission in, in which case we will be LAST (~5 pts vs up to 25) as I have generic DDR and the slowest CPU in the K7 lineups.
Birthday on the 3rd, would like to celebrate with an XS SC4 top 3. :)
I used to think like that as well, but after seeing how many of the top overclockers just send their chips off to RMA, I changed my mind. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Not that it matters anyway, all my hardware is old and not covered by any warranty at all.
I still hope there will be a K7 submission, but I sent you a PM concerning the DDR memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Thanks.
...aaaannndd I am over the 300 point hump. 400 next :)
Did you buy the kit?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Congratulations! Well done! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
I wish I had 300 points... :D
Yeah. He declined my offer for $10, I ended up paying $13. Whether it gets here before the end of the month is another story...Est. June 29th...Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
I was up late last night with a shaky hand performing a socket pinmod on my Socket 462 system, gonna try to boot it up tonight at rather conservative selections (2 GHz, 1.675v)
That's still a good price, I hope they come in in time.
Was your mod successful?
By the way, nice work with the new Phenom II chip! :up:
Haven't tried to boot the Socket A system yet. To be honest, I suspect I will need LN2 to pull off what I modded so I'm gonna try something a little lesser.
As for K10, it is okay for 32M, but these new chips are weird. I can only do 1M about 40 MHz higher than 32M and validate less than 100 MHz higher. CPU-NB is awful. (4.3 @ 1.68v)
I still have a 965 to try.
Alright, I saw you were able to improve your 32M time with the new 965! :)
Yes, but this board is extremely inefficient. I am missing 8-10 seconds. :(
On a good board with a little more CPU-NB headroom too I think I could even break 10:1x.000, because the CPU is good for 6.8 GHz.
Yah, I know the C5F is very good for monster memory clocks but efficiency is not its strength.
For FX it isn't that bad, I'm not really sure though because nobody bothers to run 32M.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
I have an M4A89TD Pro but I think it is dead. I might have to RMA it.
Got new ram today, these are 1GB CH-5 rated 200 2-3-2-6. I didn't do bad, I guess for $18.
EDIT:
By the way, my 2600K+MIVE won't post on air. I'm getting kind of worried, it is a huge setback for me to be out of $380.
Yah, but I read you have noticed that memory that seems great on FX + 990 needs about 0.1V more for the same clocks on Intel ( SB or IB ). That's why I'm careful about buying RAM that has been binned on Bulldozer, especially the C5F is going crazy on memory clocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Do you mean the 3200LL kit or another one? Did you get a rev1.2 kit? It will be better than your current RAM at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
I'm very sorry to hear about your SB setup. :(
Rev 1.1, looked up IC on Corsair forums, said Winbond C DieQuote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
My Hypers fly on SB clock and booting wise, but I could not stabilize Hypers @ 2133 divider, but 1900 6-6-5 in 32M was fine, booted up to 1940 6-6-6 IIRC. They just don't work in 32M with SB, I think it was my chip's IMC.
My Pi kit was certified 7-10-7 1.65v on P55, needs more like 1.72v on SB, but flies on Bulldozer...G*Skill told me that it is common for the Pi to need more voltage on SB vs P55, no explanation why though other than "it was tuned for P55"
As far as my SB setup goes, the plan was to just fly through HWBOT benches for points and sell it. Now I can't do either, and I am at a $375 loss if CPU is dead, which means no LN2 for a long while and probably no Ivy Bridge until christmas rolls around...and that I will probably have to sell one of my HD5770s, etc.
Already sold my X6 1100T to cover costs from my dead 955.
Check out this video of the latest Asus event:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfm_iJ8J-Tc
Weird, 3200LL v1.1 should be rated 2-2-2-5 and be BH-5. Did you go by the product number?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
I just checked my 3200LL kit on Corsair forums and it's not even in the list. :confused:
If your Hyper chips can't work on the 2133 divider it's because of the memory most of the time, my guess is that very good Hyper sticks like GTX2 would probably work fine.
Yah, as I said, I'm really sorry to hear about your loss, it sucks when something that expensive dies. Maybe you should think about benching cheaper stuff like I do ( when I have time :shrug: ), if it breaks it doesn't matter much and you can go flat out on the voltages as well.
CMX512RE-3200LL_________XMS3200RE v1.1 0403063 = Winbond -5 Die Rev CQuote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
2-3-2-6 as the listing was at NCIX Canada.
I know guys that can't get GTX2 to work either. ADATA XPG+ are pretty awful bin in general but a lot work on SB. It's just weird. Not sure if CPU or board or both are dead, so I will find out soon after I get someone to drop in the CPU into their board.
Unforutunately I can't bench 3D, even with a lowly 5770 on AMD...I mean, I already did but I could easily improve those scores with SB on air. If my new Phenom II 965 BE does smth like 6.6 on LN2 for 3D benching maybe. Sold the 1100T.
Guys, I think we have a chance to compete in Team Cup SC5 IGP...
Anyone on the team with Ivy and Z77, plus a little time can cover GMA HD, right?
I have a laptop here with GMA4500M, to at least have a submission in the GMA category, I have $130 in PayPal right now too, plus a little extra birthday money (today is my birthday) so I can easily buy a 790GX/890GX motherboard for AMD HD 3/4xxx series, after benching I can just dump that board back into someone elses hands and buy/mess with Llano for a bit.
That would only leave GeForce integrated open in case someone would like to persue it.
I see it's because of the RE in the part number, it's different from regular 3200LL modules. 2-3-2-6 is typical of CH-5 indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Any news about your chip?
We might have someone with IB and Llano who could take care of those stages... Unfortunately as far as I know there's no one with a GeForce IGP.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
I have a 3870K I can send to someone who has a mb to bench, just ended up using the A75 UD4H.
I might take you up on that later on this month, I will be on vacation until the 17th.Quote:
Originally Posted by l0ud_sil3nc3
@Don Dan
Yesterday I scrubbed off 2 strips of Armaflex tape off the back of the board so I can RMA it, took a lot of Alcohol and Acetone, about 5 hours of work. The Armaflex has the tackiest glue I've ever seen...and it was over top of the serial number sticker, so I had to be extremely careful to get the sticker readable... then I baked the board at 70c for 2 hours.
It did the exact same thing it did before, so the board will be off to RMA and I'll pray the CPU is alive.
In August I plan to eat up the AMD Athlon XP rankings with a side of Ivy...if my 2600K is alive and only my MIVE is dead O.o
@marco
gold!!! :D hahahah i love it :D
Sounds nasty! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Nice work Marco! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by marcolecorse
never apply armaflex directly on the PCB, especially if you don't need to go cold there is no need to do so.
I mean, for -50° C or so you could just stick with a bit of eraser and paper IMHO.
if you need to go real cold armaflex tape on the back of the mobo could be a good idea, but before applying it I would cover the entire PCB with some kind of electrical tape so when you have to get off the armaflex the PCB will be clean.
armaflex glue is a pita to remove.
Blame Gunslinger @ PURE team? He sold me the board...armaflex tape was on the backside of the PCB 3/4 length of the board horizontal across PCI-E slots. It was cheap though at $140, I was hoping I wouldn't have to RMA ever...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mafio
Either board or CPU died, I don't have extra board/CPU to test so board goes off to RMA before my 57x 2600K does
I use a grey pipe wrap, frost king brand, peels right off easy...eraser works too
Benched Athlon II X2 210e earlier:
7x gold cup lol
http://www.hwbot.org/hardware/proces...on_ii_x2_210e/
A clean sweep! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
I wonder why your scores don't show up on the Submissions tab... :confused:
I was wondering the same thing, I also couldn't tell if it changed team points on the page...I should have gotten ~36 points for the team but it looks to me like they didn't count towards overall team points.
We have had 26,015 - 26,017 for the last few days, it was like that before I submitted those and also after...
Can you recalculate the team's points?
I checked that already, points are awarded correctly for all your scores as far as I can see.
We were slightly below 26k before you submitted.
Alright, that's good.
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1...ly17th2012.jpg
Nice scores l0ud_sil3nc3! :up:
Well done Mr. LS!! :up::up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveRo
thanks guys, just need a better chip 6.5 is not going to cut it:p:
I want to see some 3D action with the GTX 275! :p:
Back from vacation, looking for mobos.Quote:
Originally Posted by l0ud_sil3nc3
They seem pretty cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
me too I need a gpu pot:p:
buy one and I will send you the chip and what ever else you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Welcome back! :wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
im about to insulate a board. I have always sprayed mg chemicals conformal on the underside and socket side in the past but its impossible to remove and the mobo companies are using UV lights to check for conformal.
has anyone ever taken a sheet of saran wrap and heated it covering the back of the board and then doing frostking over that? Do I even need conformal? should I just do 2 sheets of frostking on the back? is conformal even needed? I see alot of you guys using liquid electrical tape around the socket and then eraser. lemme know. I'm about to insulate some boards.
would this count for anything? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814125047
nevermind. I bought that card as a tester for insulating gfx. I never did ln2/dice in vga before.
To be honest I think it is all way overboard.
For Ivy and AMD full pot stuff there should be no worry with just 4-5 thick paper towel gasket on back of board.
There are guys that frost the whole board over without issue lol.
How I've been doing it:
Top side -
Eraser whole socket area
Paper towel gasket
Armaflex gasket
That way socket area is completely sealed airtight and insulated, cold under full pot spreads at most to top VRM and 1st/2nd ram then stuff loose armaflex in gaps like VRM/NB heatsink. I've only done about 10-12 of these things but I have never found water even after leaving the thing overnight.
Back of the board usually run the frost king tape (kind with tinfoil on one side) across the back around socket area, then paper towels behind it, if I'm really lazy just stack paper towels thick (8-10 ply, 4-5 sheets thick) The stuff is not nearly as effective as armaflex / black stuff but I like it.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_24437-1410-F...ing&facetInfo=
Then you have the vaseline crowd that don't insulate worth a crap, just cover all in vaseline and it becomes water tight. It seems an easy way to me to find a coldbug in boards...cold goes all over
that sounds like a good method. Ive always done what you do except conformal on both sides. Ive never done vaseline. like you said it seems like everything else would freeze and you would have a cold bug in too many places instead of just cpu or memory. How about nailpolish on the cpu area mosfets or vaseline in the socket ?? Ive always done it all. like 1 - 2 hrs just spent on insulation. I like your idea. I think the only thing I would do on top of what you do is nail polish on some areas by the cpu. also the the eraser in the holes on the underside of the dimms.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
To be honest I wouldn't even bother the way I'm doing it now.
The eraser insulates somewhat and I haven't gotten condensation on mosfet side until tear-down.
But others have had different experiences, I guess I've just been lucky with my method
lol okQuote:
Originally Posted by l0ud_sil3nc3
:wave::dog:Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
If somebody would bench Ivy IGP for the team comp (MVG has HDMI video out) it would be greatly appreciated. :)
I'll cover GMA and AMD HD, and also Llano I suppose, since trans_am sponsored the board and loud the CPU.
That leaves Geforce IGP, maybe I will post a thread in the intel section to see if anybody owns one of those boards.
Looks like I need to get my dewar filled again...
I'm sure someone can take care of Ivy IGP. :)
Alright. :)
Someone needs to teach me how to run PCMark05 :D
you and me both.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
So I hear Phenom II X4 flies with ram on LN2
count me in:p:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenEffect
It's a start:
http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2301561_
Sideport going screaming fast ftw, DDR3-2000
Sounds like you're having fun Sam... :rofl:
Ninja-post right in front of me! :D
Reminds me of why I sold the same model of the board in the first place...though chew* gave that one to me for free...
Sideport memory on this particular board is Hynix BFR. :D
I think I can do upper 3K's when on LN2, gonna make a ghetto rampot probably with eraser to seal against heatsink and foil. I hope the heatpipe doesn't implode.
Win 7 is better too, chew* has 3.65k or something on air cooling but with Win 7 which has better GPU scores.
I'll retest for real tomorrow on Win 7...
No one seems to have gone over 260MHz HT clock with Deneb, with Thuban some people are pushing up to 330MHz. Do you think memory on LN2 will help? Or are you talking about the Sideport memory?
These Gigabyte boards are just trash, even the UD7 8-series board had this problem in it's first revision. Some people had trouble passing ~220 HTT. The CPU of course is capable of well over 300 HT Ref. Clock.
Yeah, LN2 on memory will help... 5-5-5-15 @ 800+ :) I can already do 750 on air. I'll have to be careful with CPU on LN2 too, according to chew* these boards coldbug with dual-channel ram. If I can run 860 5-5-5-15 it will probably score quite a bit better than CL6.
Sideport memory is maxed at 1000 MHz already, highest option in the BIOS.
Alright, I already expected you to go for CL5, even 5-6-5 @ 860MHz should help.
Doesn't Sideport memory scale with HT frequency? Is it just a fixed clock?
Guy's - 90% of the tweaks and "how to's" for pcm05 are located here - http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=37447 :up:
The other 10% 2DTW, MTT1, MTT2 text edit, and MTT3 memory performance tweaks - Zen helped alot with some of this but we still dearly need this text edit tweak! :yepp:
edit - The xpstartup limit is less than 220MB/s, use iometer 2004.07.30 to limit startup, set it to run for like 20 seconds, save the .icf file to run from a .bat file - I will send examples of these to any xs teammates that care to pm me. :)
Overall 3D performance scales with HT frequency, this board does not have a voltage adjustment for that bus however it still does 3.1 GHz HT Link. I think it increases memory bandwidth to the GPU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
Sideport is just a fixed clock.
Hmm how close can I get without a fancy raid setup that costs 2x my machine?Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveRo
Found PLL in notebook, supported by paid version SetFSB. Donate $10.57 to SetFSB, wait on email.
*clock ticks*
Will look for mobile DDR2 SODIMMs with a decent SPD, MemSet doesn't work. :(
Also need soldering iron for PLL pinmod...
Why do you need a PLL pinmod?
Because the FSB adjustment is locked, I need connect one pin on the IC or a resistor in the circuit to a ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
I see. :)
Maybe you could ask FELIX about adding that GL40 chipset to MemSet if it's not too much work.
Everything works as far as adjustment, even shows changed in CPU-Z however I can set silly things like 5-2-2-4 and performance doesn't change...I don't know if it is his program or not that is the issue :p:
Gonna take the backpack and bike to the local electronics store here pretty soon. I'll practice a little on a Dell GX270 here with bad capacitors. :D
I'm working on aquiring an AMD based GeForce IGP motherboard for Team Cup. If the transaction goes through, that puts me down as benching:
Intel GMA - working on hardmod
AMD HD - need LN2
AMD Llano - needs to arrive
GeForce - needs to arrive
EDIT:
Thank you zeneffect for the Ivy submission XD
Llano is such a PITA
Gigabutt board is such a PITA
Have yet to go past 3 GHz and 1866 ram, overclocking is such a failure...moving bclk up by one sometimes even makes a no-POST or "overclocking failed", or other times just entering bios and saving same settings will do it, in which case I have to start over...even simple overclocks like 3.2 GHz CPU and 2133 CL9 ram don't work.
Why did I sign up for this
Very good! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Hahaha... :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...34#post5122234
Currently the board or CPU looks dead all because I have looked at it the wrong way.
To loud and trans if something is dead I'll assist with RMA :/
well that was a short session... full pot, 6ghz 3dm06 igp @ 1700... instant shutdown after 1st test... 56 error on post. i think the igp popped on this one :down:
saved a 1650 igp run though ;)
*edit*
back up and running. no condensation... but thermal grease on back of cpu = bad. wtf... stupid thumbs.
That's good to hear! :up:
And sorry to hear about the dead board or CPU Sam! :(
Sent Gigabyte Support an angry letter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
I don't think the CPU is dead as there are no beeps from the motherboard (I made sure to install a speaker) :(
I guess I will try to get an advanced RMA and hopefully they overnight it :mad: ...the board lasted 30 minutes
Gigabyte agreed to advanced RMA but only UPS Ground.
Canceled RMA with GB and went with newegg RMA, so trans am can get a refund.
Oh, and I got a motherboard with GeForce 8200 IGP...got here from Hong Kong in 4 days, I was impressed.
It will be interesting to see how your scores compare to the ones done on Intel CPUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Edit. I should've checked HWBot first. :D
That's not bad. :)
Yeah, I need to figure out a way to cool the NB better with LN2
That was just tinfoil sitting on the heatsink, NB was reading about 0c.
I could do a lot better I think if I could get temps down.
However on my last fill they only filled about half my dewar D: so I don't have all that much LN2 left.
make sure when you get your dewar filled that it overflows when they put the cap on it, that way you know it is full:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by l0ud_sil3nc3
hey George, give me a call tonight after 7:00PM. I need to talk to you about that airgas account (the airgas i went to will let me use yours too :D )
I guess it is a good thing that I spend more for gasoline than I do for LN2...
The guys at AirGas told me they get LN2 for 10-20c a liter depending on the month.
The people selling it for $2.00 / L + are making like 1000% profit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenEffect
good news, success:p:
hopefully I can get them to drop it a bit lower
I miss my uber dewars! :mad:
I left about 5L in there to see how long it will hold. So far looks like very minimal loss since Tuesday. Uber dewars indeed :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hondacity
I say 7PM because im at work :(Quote:
Originally Posted by l0ud_sil3nc3