New rumor about ATI Southern Islands

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10-09-2010, 03:14 PM
tajoh111

Quote:

Originally Posted by spursindonesia

LOL, Bart will be a great x7xx chip if 32 nm process wasn't canned, but :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: happens, and there's just so much you can do on the same process. Increasing absolute performance while increasing performance/$, performance/die area, and performance/watt aka overall efficiency at the same time, increasing product value for costumer somewhat (a US$ 229 HD 6870 Bart that's faster than 299 US$ HD 5850 of today is indeed giving more value for costumers, right ?) while making good progress for the company's bottomline altogether, all achieved using the same TSMC's troubled 40 nm process, and you guys already shooting so much flak to AMD ?? :rofl:

No way will it be 229 for a 6870. The cheapest x870 series was the $219(it's price had to drop after) 3870 which is 50 percent smaller and was facing much stiffer competition. and AMD/ATi had completely lost the momentum.

If rumors are true, 68xx is rather close to 270mm in size and it will be priced closer to 300 than 200 because of that. In addition, there is no real competition for it(a full gf104 will probably be pretty close or faster but it is not a confirmed product at this point) AMD knows that it has the momentum right now. Nv has only been able to pick up 15% market share since fermi's introduction. AMD is entirely going to try to take advantage of this situation. The stigma associated with the gtx 470 heat and power use has really stopped it from picking up marketshare, even though its a better value than the 5870 and 5850. AMD is not going to be generous to the consumer this generation and if it renaming is true, that is proof of that. The efficiency AMD seems to be stressing this part generation is power and chip size, not pricing.
10-09-2010, 03:53 PM
Olivon

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamtan2

lots of smoke being blown here based on RUMORS

RUMORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

the only thing we KNOW IMO is that naming something 6870 when it is worse than 5870 is a STUPID IDEA. so why expect them to do it.

Totally agree :yepp:
10-09-2010, 11:03 PM
LordEC911

Quote:

Originally Posted by tajoh111

No way will it be 229 for a 6870. The cheapest x870 series was the $219(it's price had to drop after) 3870 which is 50 percent smaller and was facing much stiffer competition. and AMD/ATi had completely lost the momentum.

If rumors are true, 68xx is rather close to 270mm in size and it will be priced closer to 300 than 200 because of that.

So if RV670 was 192mm2 and Barts is ~270mm2... where does the 50% smaller come into play?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tajoh111

The efficiency AMD seems to be stressing this part generation is power and chip size, not pricing.

Really?
10-09-2010, 11:08 PM
tajoh111

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordEC911

So if RV670 was 192mm2 and Barts is ~270mm2... where does the 50% smaller come into play?

Really?

I meant 50 percent larger or close to it, which is substantially bigger. But either way the chip is larger. You can't deny why AMD is renaming which I have seen from your post, agree why they are doing. Its all to justify a higher price. It actually one of the reason why I am taking this rumor rather seriously. When someone very pro AMD/ATI is believing this rumor, it is likely true.
10-09-2010, 11:17 PM
LordEC911

Quote:

Originally Posted by tajoh111

I meant 50 percent larger or close to it, which is substantially bigger. But either way the chip is larger. You can't deny why AMD is renaming which I have seen from your post, agree why they are doing. Its all to justify a higher price. It actually one of the reason why I am taking this rumor rather seriously. When someone very pro AMD/ATI is believing this rumor, it is likely true.

Well... I expect people to get numbers right.

I never said it had anything to do with pricing... I am actually somewhat optimistic about Barts pricing, I was merely confirming the rumor was indeed true a few weeks ago, no more/no less.

Edit- To try and clarify, I am more inclined to think this is due to the product placement/naming of their entire lineup than a slightly higher margin to pocket mindset.
10-09-2010, 11:24 PM
marten_larsson

Quote:

Originally Posted by tajoh111

I meant 50 percent larger or close to it. Which is substantially bigger. But you can tell the chip is alot larger.

If Barts is 270mm² it has to have at least 1280 shaders. Juniper is what, 150? With 800... If AMD has gone 4-way on this architecture as most seem to believe and that this move would increase their shader density even further it would be practically impossible for a chip to be that size without a quite big increase in shaders (compared to Juniper) or just a slight decrease compared to Cypress.

If Barts XT has 1280 shaders we could expect it to perform in line with 5850 or better. This because of increased shader efficiency, higher clocks and higher memory bandwidth.

Dave Baumann has several times in the Beyond3d-thread stated that the 5800-series is the anomaly regarding price. This leads me to believe Barts is truly 6800-series, will be cheaper than current x8xx cards, will probably be a good purchase. I don't think AMD wants to get hundreds of reviews saying they've got worse performance/$ than their last generation.
10-09-2010, 11:43 PM
Daveburt714

Quote:

Originally Posted by tajoh111

I meant 50 percent larger or close to it, which is substantially bigger. But either way the chip is larger. You can't deny why AMD is renaming which I have seen from your post, agree why they are doing. Its all to justify a higher price. It actually one of the reason why I am taking this rumor rather seriously. When someone very pro AMD/ATI is believing this rumor, it is likely true.

tajoh111: It seems obvious to me that you have a bias against AMD in general... I'm actually kind of suprised you have an ATI VC in your rig...

We only have a week or so to go before the release...
If the rebranding thing is accurate, I agree with you.
Changing the Model#'s we're all used to is a little awkward, but they're changing the brand from ATI to AMD as well, so it really might not be that far out of line... :p:

Pricing is going to be the key thing...
If I can pick up a 6850 (6770) for ~ $200, and it performs as well as a 5850 while using less power I'll be a happy camper. :up:

I need a new VC anyway, and I have the cash on hand so as soon as a 6xxx pops up for sale I'll order one and let ya know how it does... :yepp:

Dave
10-09-2010, 11:52 PM
hurleybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by marten_larsson

If Barts is 270mm² it has to have at least 1280 shaders. Juniper is what, 150? With 800... If AMD has gone 4-way on this architecture as most seem to believe and that this move would increase their shader density even further

It's actually the exact opposite. The more narrow the shader the lower the density as there are more duplicated structures taking up space.
10-10-2010, 01:41 AM
tajoh111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daveburt714

tajoh111: It seems obvious to me that you have a bias against AMD in general... I'm actually kind of suprised you have an ATI VC in your rig...

We only have a week or so to go before the release...
If the rebranding thing is accurate, I agree with you.
Changing the Model#'s we're all used to is a little awkward, but they're changing the brand from ATI to AMD as well, so it really might not be that far out of line... :p:

Pricing is going to be the key thing...
If I can pick up a 6850 (6770) for ~ $200, and it performs as well as a 5850 while using less power I'll be a happy camper. :up:

I need a new VC anyway, and I have the cash on hand so as soon as a 6xxx pops up for sale I'll order one and let ya know how it does... :yepp:

Dave

No real bias. I might even buy a 6990 if they can keep the price around 650. I even posted pics a while back that I owned both those cards. I have been disappointed in the cards from both company this generation and have not upgraded. I am not letting this name branding slide because no one did when NV did it and alot of people are posting a stance they won't buy NV card because of the renaming antics, which is ridiculous.

The change from AMD to ATI does not justify the name series change because most people are not going to notice that. People are not going base its performance based on naming because they have been the same company for a while. The fact that some people are giving them a ticket out is ridiculous when NV got so much heat for it(which shows tremendous bias).

AMD/ATI started as a pretty nice company, but they have really took some turn for worse for their goodwill lately. Bad graphs, bad commercials and this new naming scheme is not doing favors for their credibility.

This might not get people who have 5xxx series people to upgrade(since it was so recent), but people who held back on the 5870 generation and still have 4xxx might upgrade thinking they are getting a better card than they really are. That is something substantially faster than a 5870 for a much lower price, which honestly would be something that sounds appetizing if it were the case; I think AMD is trying to do this partially as well as increase the margins for their cards. The reality if the renaming is true is that your getting something with very similar speed to a 5850 for just a tiny bit cheaper than its original MSRP. There are alot of rumors that suggest barts xt performs around this level.

What scares me this generation is pricing. The 6970 or single cayman has to be pricier than the last generation(the name suggest so and barts is obviously not going to be priced like older x7xx series) cypress which was already 400 dollars. I can easily see cayman being 500 dollars with no real competition and because AMD has the momentum right now(the stronger brand). Since cayman is bigger and the 5970 was already 700 dollars. Are we going to start seeing 800+ dollar cards. That really scares me is fermi started out so weak. Unless their is a miracle turn around(like the 4870) I can see getting raped by AMD.

I am just getting scared to see a possible monopoly like situation, which could happen, with certain people like charlie wanting to happen and this is spreading to the fanboys which don't realize the longterm consequences. I am not happy when either companies fail because it decreases competition and sometimes forces a company to sell below cost which I dislike because it really does no longterm good. FFS, what is wrong with these people. I didn't like when NV got so strong and I don't like AMD getting so strong.
10-10-2010, 02:03 AM
flopper

so, 6850/6870 bart editions for half the price as current 5850/5870 generation but similar performance?
not shabby.
10-10-2010, 02:34 AM
marten_larsson

Quote:

Originally Posted by tajoh111

No real bias. I might even buy a 6990 if they can keep the price around 650. I even posted pics a while back that I owned both those cards. I have been disappointed in the cards from both company this generation and have not upgraded. I am not letting this name branding slide because no one did when NV did it and alot of people are posting a stance they won't buy NV card because of the renaming antics, which is ridiculous.

The change from AMD to ATI does not justify the name series change because most people are not going to notice that. People are not going base its performance based on naming because they have been the same company for a while. The fact that some people are giving them a ticket out is ridiculous when NV got so much heat for it(which shows tremendous bias).

AMD/ATI started as a pretty nice company, but they have really took some turn for worse for their goodwill lately. Bad graphs, bad commercials and this new naming scheme is not doing favors for their credibility.

This might not get people who have 5xxx series people to upgrade(since it was so recent), but people who held back on the 5870 generation and still have 4xxx might upgrade thinking they are getting a better card than they really are. That is something substantially faster than a 5870 for a much lower price, which honestly would be something that sounds appetizing if it were the case; I think AMD is trying to do this partially as well as increase the margins for their cards. The reality if the renaming is true is that your getting something with very similar speed to a 5850 for just a tiny bit cheaper than its original MSRP. There are alot of rumors that suggest barts xt performs around this level.

What scares me this generation is pricing. The 6970 or single cayman has to be pricier than the last generation(the name suggest so and barts is obviously not going to be priced like older x7xx series) cypress which was already 400 dollars. I can easily see cayman being 500 dollars with no real competition and because AMD has the momentum right now(the stronger brand). Since cayman is bigger and the 5970 was already 700 dollars. Are we going to start seeing 800+ dollar cards. That really scares me is fermi started out so weak. Unless their is a miracle turn around(like the 4870) I can see getting raped by AMD.

I am just getting scared to see a possible monopoly like situation, which could happen, with certain people like charlie wanting to happen and this is spreading to the fanboys which don't realize the longterm consequences. I am not happy when either companies fail because it decreases competition and sometimes forces a company to sell below cost which I dislike because it really does no longterm good. FFS, what is wrong with these people. I didn't like when NV got so strong and I don't like AMD getting so strong.

A lot of what you're saying is in line with my views but some are not:

-Barts at x7xx price point is really asking a lot IMO, the chip is 270mm² and you want it competing price wise with a 170mm² chip? It's not reasonable. More reasonable would be to see Barts priced as the 4850/4870/4890.

-Nvidia is finally stepping up to the plate and we will probably see somewhat more competition from them which hopefully will lead to price cuts.

-TSMC is increasing capacity which will give AMD a chance to produce as many cards they can sell, not limited by production. This will also lead to lower prices.
10-10-2010, 03:00 AM
blindbox

Quote:

Originally Posted by marten_larsson

-Barts at x7xx price point is really asking a lot IMO, the chip is 270mm² and you want it competing price wise with a 170mm² chip? It's not reasonable. More reasonable would be to see Barts priced as the 4850/4870/4890.

Wait a minute, where did you get the info that the chip would be 270 mm^2? 270 mm^2 means that Cayman would be ridiculously big. Highly unlikely.

Pricing differs from generation to generation. Chip size doesn't matter to us consumers when it comes to pricing; it's all about the competition. So it's not really asking a lot. I agree pretty much with all of tajoh111 's post. Having Barts be named as the 6800 series would be pretty disappointing as we are already used to seeing the performance leaps each generation gives. What gives, AMD?

All you can hope for is that the rumours are untrue. I doubt they are false though, seeing as how many of these rumours has cropped up, except for the first Cayman GPU-Z shot which still implied Cayman as the 6800 series. :rolleyes:
10-10-2010, 03:16 AM
marten_larsson

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindbox

Wait a minute, where did you get the info that the chip would be 270 mm^2? 270 mm^2 means that Cayman would be ridiculously big. Highly unlikely.

Pricing differs from generation to generation. Chip size doesn't matter to us consumers when it comes to pricing; it's all about the competition. So it's not really asking a lot. I agree pretty much with all of tajoh111 's post. Having Barts be named as the 6800 series would be pretty disappointing as we are already used to seeing the performance leaps each generation gives. What gives, AMD?

All you can hope for is that the rumours are untrue. I doubt they are false though, seeing as how many of these rumours has cropped up, except for the first Cayman GPU-Z shot which still implied Cayman as the 6800 series. :rolleyes:

I got it from tajoh111 on the other page.

It would make Cayman somewhere around 400mm² (given 1920 SPs) which is in line with what most are expecting (a bit bigger than Cypress).

Yes and no. Of course size will impact price, I don't think they'd want to sell at a loss (it's impossible in the long term at least). But at the same time, the competition is what drives prices down. I agree with it being quite stupid to name Barts 6800 as the performance isn't there. But at the same time I understand the argument that x8xx isn't supposed to be a 400 dollar card which means it has to be smaller to be profitable (a relative "has to be").

If 6870 (Barts XT) comes with a good price tag (<5850, ~5830 price) and ~5870 performance I wouldn't be too upset with the naming. But if they're asking for more than 5850 price I would bash them as I did Nvidia. Cayman for ~5870 price and 5970 performance wouldn't be that bad either.
10-10-2010, 04:07 AM
jakefalcons

Sure changing the way amd chooses the model number is gonna be confusing and frankly kinda misleading but why is everyone getting so bent out of shape this is an entirely new card. Nvidia re-branded the 8800gt i believe like 3 times to 3 or 4 different models that is much much worse imo. Anyway im waiting for reviews im gonna be needed a new card some time soon time to upgrade from my 8800gts, its lasted me a really long time :P
10-10-2010, 04:48 AM
Sn0wm@n

maybe the renaming has to do with all the new fusion product that amd is introducing in 2011 ?????
10-10-2010, 05:01 AM
kuroikenshi

I tend to agree with the statement you just made snowman, as well as the statement made by your teddy bear, I believe they're both correct, valid and accurate, as well as farkin cute
10-10-2010, 05:13 AM
MrMojoZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakefalcons

Sure changing the way amd chooses the model number is gonna be confusing and frankly kinda misleading but why is everyone getting so bent out of shape this is an entirely new card. Nvidia re-branded the 8800gt i believe like 3 times to 3 or 4 different models that is much much worse imo. Anyway im waiting for reviews im gonna be needed a new card some time soon time to upgrade from my 8800gts, its lasted me a really long time :P

I agree. I would rather they not have played with the numbers, but to compare with what nvidia did is silly.
10-10-2010, 05:22 AM
Vardant

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakefalcons

Nvidia re-branded the 8800gt i believe like 3 times to 3 or 4 different models that is much much worse imo.

8800GTS 512MB was still a little bit slower than 9800GTX, 9800GTX+ was even faster and even the GTS 250 had something new, I just can't remember, what exactly.

So, yeah, in three times, it would still be considered as upgrade, even if it was a minor one.

But in AMD's case, you might actually end up with a slower card, when "upgrading" from HD 5870 to HD 6870.

That is obviously worse.

The reason to rename them might have something to do with ATI brand going away and AMD needing more space to accommodate more cards, but that doesn't change the fact, that it might hurt many people.
They're entitled to change the designation of certain cards, but at least make an announcement or something.

Still, I can't shake this weird feeling. There were many options and this is suspiciously the dumbest one, they could come up with, yet they went with it.

btw. some more news from OBR

Quote:

HD 6850 price - $229-249
HD 6870 price - $299-329

(that's my estimate from the currency conversion)

He's also asking people if they are really sure, that the SP is now 4D instead of 5D, because you might end up disappointed.
10-10-2010, 05:32 AM
Jowy Atreides

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vardant

So, yeah, in three times, it would still be considered as upgrade, even if it was a minor one.

But in AMD's case, you might actually end up with a slower card, when "upgrading" from HD 5870 to HD 6870.

That is obviously worse.

I believe he wasn't speaking of the 8800 gts and 9800 gtx chips.
Rather the 8800GT, 9800GT and the GTS240, in which case, you would not be upgrading at all, in the slightest.

Oh, the 8800gtx laptop chip became a 9800gt mobile chip.

In AMD's case, you would not end up with a slower card because if the naming changes take place, the 6870 would not be the successor to the 5870.
The cayman xt 69xx would be the successor.

With a straight face, you expect Cayman to be slower than the 5870?

Indeed.

Edit: I wouldn't trust OBR, given his history of lying and nda baiting.

Jimmyz delivered. Some still remember the day lol
10-10-2010, 05:39 AM
RaV[666]

This is a new product, how in the hell can it be "renamed" ,its new chip with new design,not same chip or same chip with a shrink.
On the other hand this:

Quote:

But in AMD's case, you might actually end up with a slower card, when "upgrading" from HD 5870 to HD 6870.

That IS obviously wrong product placement,we dont have all the data tho, if 6870 ends up slower than 5870 and be priced similarly, than it will be something to b*tch about for sure tho.
If however amd is changing theyre product line to accomodate new segments (fusion maybe) and price will be inline of what it should be.Than really ,thats understandable.
10-10-2010, 05:39 AM
Vardant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jowy Atreides

I believe he wasn't speaking of the 8800 gts and 9800 gtx chips.
Rather the 8800GT, 9800GT and the GTS240, in which case, you would not be upgrading at all, in the slightest..

GTS 240 was OEM only though, so a regular person would not be able to upgrade to it at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jowy Atreides

Oh, the 8800gtx laptop chip became a 9800gt mobile chip.

That's nothing unusual though, both companies have quite different naming scheme in the notebook segment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jowy Atreides

In AMD's case, you would not end up with a slower card because if the naming changes take place, the 6870 would not be the successor to the 5870.
The cayman xt 69xx would be the successor.

Yes, you would.
How should a regular person know that, after three generations, where HD 5870 was faster than HD 4870 and that was faster than 3870?
10-10-2010, 05:48 AM
Jowy Atreides

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vardant

GTS 240 was OEM only though, so a regular person would not be able to upgrade to it at all.

That's nothing unusual though, both companies have quite different naming scheme in the notebook segment.

Yes, you would.
How should a regular person know that, after three generations, where HD 5870 was faster than HD 4870 and that was faster than 3870?

A "regular person" probably buys a 7600gt from maplins for £80 and does no research.
Normal people walk into shops and buy what they are told is best.

The only people interested in the naming shift is flamebaters and pedants.
The regular computer users with no strange emotional attachment will see the 6970 being the replacement to the 5870 and get over it.

Every main product line in the 5 series will have a considerably faster replacement.

Whilst nvidia's renames were inline upgrades, this isn't. It's a shift.

Old 5970 ---Replaced by New/Faster--> 6990
Old 5870 ---Replaced by New/Faster--> 6970
Old 5850 ---Replaced by New/Faster--> 6950
Old 5770 ---Replaced by New/Faster--> 6870
Old 5750 ---Replaced by New/Faster--> 6850

All have faster parts succeding them, different names and elevated prices but ALL faster.

The 8800gt -> 9800gt brought no faster part for the midrange to succeed it.
What you saw was what you got, the same card in the same category as the previous gen.

There was no naming shift to lower the actual real world performance position of the 800 card. ATI do have an actual replacement.

Names change to alter perceived positions of performance, part upgrades are sequential and bring full performance upgrades across the board.

Thank you for saying Cayman will be slower than the 5870, someone is bound to dig that up in the future.
10-10-2010, 05:53 AM
Vardant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jowy Atreides

Thank you for saying Cayman will be slower than the 5870, someone is bound to dig that up in the future.

:rolleyes:
10-10-2010, 06:50 AM
kaktus1907

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7...bartsfixed.png
10-10-2010, 07:00 AM
Eagleclaw

Consider the naming change because they need to fill in the gaps from the 5xxx series and not because they are trying to deceive anyone.

Until the full product line is disclosed getting your panties all in a wad about the name will just make you look a like a nutjob...... :rofl:

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