F die Micron and the truth on speed yield.

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03-23-2006, 12:38 PM
ozzimark

Quote:

Originally Posted by nn_step

Then why is the Cheapest Micron sticks I am finding are $250+
and yet I can find UCCC Ram for under $190 ?

EXACTLY what I was about to say :D
even "value" sticks based on micron is still like $190, and i can get 250mhz binned UCCC for $158 at newegg

and ontop of this, i remember when crucial/micron were having supply issues for 5b D for whatever reason a while ago, and they started using samsung UCCC as the replacement on the crucial value sticks. totally random, but something that i thought was curious :p:

edit: aha, maybe the IC's themselves are cheaper, but the number that make the 250mhz bin is a lot lower, driving the cost up ;)
03-23-2006, 12:44 PM
nn_step

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzimark

EXACTLY what I was about to say :D
even "value" sticks based on micron is still like $190, and i can get 250mhz binned UCCC for $158 at newegg

and ontop of this, i remember when crucial/micron were having supply issues for 5b D for whatever reason a while ago, and they started using samsung UCCC as the replacement on the crucial value sticks. totally random, but something that i thought was curious :p:

edit: aha, maybe the IC's themselves are cheaper, but the number that make the 250mhz bin is a lot lower, driving the cost up ;)

Wouldn't they just sell teh ones that don't make it as value?
03-23-2006, 03:11 PM
ozzimark

Quote:

Originally Posted by nn_step

Wouldn't they just sell teh ones that don't make it as value?

hm, good point... or sell it off to OEM's.. :p:
03-23-2006, 03:14 PM
nn_step

So then if they aren't loosing money selling the unwanted sticks, then why if Micron is cheaper, are they selling it for alot more than UCCC?
03-23-2006, 03:34 PM
uOpt

Quote:

Originally Posted by nn_step

So then if they aren't loosing money selling the unwanted sticks, then why if Micron is cheaper, are they selling it for alot more than UCCC?

Not losing money doesn't mean they don't have to earn money.

If the IC comes up with many high-clocking sticks you can make the high-rated sticks cheap.

Ff most of the ICs go into value RAM instead you need to make the remaining high-rated sticks more expensive.

All for the same IC price.
03-23-2006, 03:37 PM
dominick32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony

Its very easy to be suckered up into posting about incredible ram, i think many top overclockers will be approached by the new players to help push new product and even by some of the older players too.

OCZ do have a beta team, they are here to show end users what is possible and to give OCZ feedback on new upcoming product. Now i could have all the ram they get cherry picked, this would lead to some awesome threads on various forums that in my opinion would turn real bad once the modules started shipping. For this reason we ship average modules only, overclocking skills come into play which proves the teams worth and you all see results you know are possible if you also buy our product. Now you have to remember some IC's do have weird issues, the CE die has this 3D issue which no prime, Pi, RST pro tester or memtest will show up...it may be related to the dimms density, in reality its hard to point to why but if you remain level headed about your expectations you won't be disappointed with the clocks you get, same applies to this new 4000 Platinum F die.

Tony,
The only thing needed say here is this: "Thank you.":toast:

Regards,
Dom
03-23-2006, 04:04 PM
SnipingWaste

Quote:

Originally Posted by nn_step

Then why is the Cheapest Micron sticks I am finding are $250+
and yet I can find UCCC Ram for under $190 ?

The Buffalo 1 gig dims at newegg should be Micron -5B rev F and its around $75 each. The Buffalo 1 gig dimm I got is micron -5b rev F and cost my $70 so $140 for 2 gig.
03-23-2006, 04:13 PM
Tony

You guys always forget speed binning is labour intensive, some one has to stand there and phisically test the dimms one by one, this cost is added to the dimms. fails do go down a grade etc but value ram does not always earn the money you guys think it does. Value ram is offered by everyone, no overclock, no speed binning, just jedec spd and you takes a chance.
03-23-2006, 04:41 PM
ozzimark

So that means that it's somehow less labor intensive to bin UCCC than 5b F, or else 5b F really is more expensive. Also, I was under the impression that most of the "binning" process wasn't done by hand, but by machine... (sadly the name of it isn't really coming to me :() This isn't true for higher binned sticks?
sorry Tony, I'm in an argumentative mood tonight, and I just want a straight answer. If you can't say exactly, just say so and I'll leave you alone and I'll figure things out myself :D
03-23-2006, 08:16 PM
nn_step

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipingWaste

The Buffalo 1 gig dims at newegg should be Micron -5B rev F and its around $75 each. The Buffalo 1 gig dimm I got is micron -5b rev F and cost my $70 so $140 for 2 gig.

Umm I don't see any Buffalo 1GB dims on NewEgg
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...ubCategory=147
03-23-2006, 11:41 PM
high5

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzimark

D was 110nm, F is 95nm.

are you absoultely sure about that?

may i ask about your source of that info? :)
03-24-2006, 12:10 AM
Sentential

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony

You guys always forget speed binning is labour intensive, some one has to stand there and phisically test the dimms one by one, this cost is added to the dimms. fails do go down a grade etc but value ram does not always earn the money you guys think it does. Value ram is offered by everyone, no overclock, no speed binning, just jedec spd and you takes a chance.

Im going to add to this since I have a good understanding of how that process works. While I was a big believer of value ram in the past im not anymore with what I know about how RAM is binned.

Tony as always is 100% correct in his assesment. Not only is binning good ram labor intensive but the quality of the stock purchased is also differnt. Just like any food product you can buy RAM by chips as well as grade.

Generally speaking the Grade A material goes to the larger MFGRs like Dell and the like and then it filters down from there. The higher grade has to be bought in much larger quanities as well as the lot price being more as well.

On top of this Micron and Infineon are *INFAMOUS* for really spotty yeilds. If you think you are going to get something to the level of what OCZ or Mushkin would bin from value ram you're outta your mind.

The odds of you getting a champ set from value RAM is about as hard as winning the lotto. The odds are significantally against you since the ram purchased for those sets are from "junk" grade ICs.

EDITED SNIPPETS:

Micron is going to be more expensive RAM in general due to labor since its is a mostly american company
Samsung is cheaper on average because they arent
Micron F from what my friends at mushkin tell me, isnt any better than good CE5. Its not the ballistix people hope it is (as I hoped it was). The reason people are moving to F is because CE5 is getting spotty again, and instead of screwing customers by cutting their yeild margins they are moving to Micron's F in order to keep the overclocking percentages alive
5BF is going to be the last great DDR1 since just about everyone has moved to DDR2 production. The final holdouts are Micron who will be finishing with this and Samsung who has just converted almost all their dram assets to DDR2 recentally
03-24-2006, 01:51 AM
Astennu

So These F Die Modules run fine on opteron cpu's ?

Got Ballistix now. And can run them well if i use one of the 2 modules. But when i pair them up i cant even run 200 mhz.

If i put in my old venice i can run them up to 270 3-3-3-8-7-13 @ 2.8v.

So mine have real MC issiuse with the new memory controllers.

Should i buy these ? or go for the 4000 XTC GX with the UCCC.
03-24-2006, 06:17 AM
Tony

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzimark

So that means that it's somehow less labor intensive to bin UCCC than 5b F, or else 5b F really is more expensive. Also, I was under the impression that most of the "binning" process wasn't done by hand, but by machine... (sadly the name of it isn't really coming to me :() This isn't true for higher binned sticks?
sorry Tony, I'm in an argumentative mood tonight, and I just want a straight answer. If you can't say exactly, just say so and I'll leave you alone and I'll figure things out myself :D

you were thinking of an Advantest. http://www.advantest.co.jp/news/pres...en-index.shtml

Million dollar+ machine, for DDr1 would be a waste of money now.

IC's are sourced pre tested, then built onto dimms, then retested many times. This retesting is done with motherboards, RST Pro's, memtest86, Prime etc...and is slow and labour intensive.

An Advantest test will show speed, not compatibility with a chipset/board etc so board testing is key and always will be.

Bottom line for example, a TCCD IC may cost $5, by the time it hits a blister pack on a dimm all tested it could be worth 2 times as much due to testing, marketing, packaging and shipping. Plus warranty costs are added so that we can look after the dimm for you for its lifetime.This is an example and not our true costing.
03-24-2006, 07:15 AM
ozzimark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony

IC's are sourced pre tested, then built onto dimms, then retested many times. This retesting is done with motherboards, RST Pro's, memtest86, Prime etc...and is slow and labour intensive.

while sad that it raises the price up so much, it's good to know how much testing relly goes on behind the scenes, and how much effort is put into trying to maintain good compatibility :D

Astennu, i've had no issues with my opteron 146

high5, an engineer at crucial told me this. i tried to find the email in which this was said so that i could quote it for you, but with no luck :(
03-24-2006, 08:22 AM
Astennu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzimark

while sad that it raises the price up so much, it's good to know how much testing relly goes on behind the scenes, and how much effort is put into trying to maintain good compatibility :D

Astennu, i've had no issues with my opteron 146

high5, an engineer at crucial told me this. i tried to find the email in which this was said so that i could quote it for you, but with no luck :(

Yeah i know but The problem only ocours with Toledo E6 cores. E4 Manchesters have no problems. Verry bad luck :'( May be i will pick up a set of these.
03-24-2006, 08:29 AM
ozzimark

is that so? to me, it seems like asus boards are causing the most trouble with 5b F :(
03-24-2006, 08:30 AM
nn_step

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentential

5BF is going to be the last great DDR1 since just about everyone has moved to DDR2 production. The final holdouts are Micron who will be finishing with this and Samsung who has just converted almost all their dram assets to DDR2 recentally

Then I better start stocking up Then :D
03-24-2006, 08:44 AM
Astennu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzimark

is that so? to me, it seems like asus boards are causing the most trouble with 5b F :(

Yeah some are. But when i use my venice on the Asus board the mem douse 270 MHz. It did 280 on a DFI tho. But when i use the opteron i can't run 200 :'(
03-24-2006, 08:54 AM
ozzimark

hmmmm, does your board let you control errata 123?
03-24-2006, 10:26 AM
Astennu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzimark

hmmmm, does your board let you control errata 123?

Uhmm what do you mean ??
03-24-2006, 10:36 AM
ozzimark

sorta like this:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/D...advchipset.jpg

errata 123 has something to do with bypassing the cache. i don't know how much it'll help, if at all,, but it might help stabilize the ram on some memory controllers.. 2T is also a choice, given the asus name on your mobo ;)
03-24-2006, 10:39 AM
Astennu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzimark

sorta like this:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/D...advchipset.jpg

errata 123 has something to do with bypassing the cache. i don't know how much it'll help, if at all,, but it might help stabilize the ram on some memory controllers.. 2T is also a choice, given the asus name on your mobo ;)

I will look for it. But T1 is not realy a option its terrible slow and my Venice cpu On The Asus bord can run it without problems. But i agree its Asus i dont like the boards buts its the only one with the RD580 chipset.
03-24-2006, 11:25 AM
SnipingWaste

Quote:

Originally Posted by nn_step

Umm I don't see any Buffalo 1GB dims on NewEgg
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...ubCategory=147

Newegg had them and sold out in a very short time at $71 each.
Monarch has them for $73
http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merch...ricewatch&NR=1
The part number with the Micron -b5 Rev F is DD4333-1G.
03-24-2006, 11:34 AM
ozzimark

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipingWaste

The part number with the Micron -b5 Rev F is DD4333-1G.

to be specific, the sticks with micron 5B F are DD4333-1G/MF, but monarch doesn't seem to differentiate between the micron sticks and the rest :(
http://www.cmtlabs.com/mbTestSummary...TestNum=010548

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