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Either way... I doubt switching between either block would allow one a higher overclock. Anything past that is probably mute.
Some are speculating that the apogee provides higher profit margin than the storm, accusing swiftech of taking profit over performance.
hence the debate.
aMp, Swiftechs margins on the Apogee are probably much better than on the Storm and they are cheaper so they will sell more of them. From a buisness standpoint it is VERY simple.
snowwie: that is correct, the TTV is very hard to acquire. IIRC the TTV was actually given to them by Intel. Why? I am not sure, but that is what I recal.
I dont know if the Apogee development started before or after the TTV came to Swiftech, but it is likely that they designed a block that performed better on the TTV than the Storm. This is not that difficult. You simply need to create a waterbock that cools the entire IHS more evenly, instead of concentrating on where you should be cooling, the center.
1) Exactly. That is also why the "data" showing the Apogee as the superior block is up front and easily read. Not in a little footnote, like where they mention the Storm performing better in "certain" situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/testsetup-apogee.htm
This is the test that I am concentrating on. That is real world cpu data. I'm sure met by the same conjecture that everyone is throwing at swiftech in other threads.
Not really important. As usual... if performance is +/- 2%, which I'm sure it is... I'll go with looks/price over performance. In which case the apogee is cheaper, and will probably prove to cool my X2 as good or better than a storm.
But the margin on the Apogee wouldn't have to be better if the two blocks were positioned differently. Ford owns Jaguar, and positions Jaguar at the high end because, well, Jaguars are better. The company doesn't discontinue its high-end line because it can sell a lot more Tauruses than XJ8s -- it targets both the mass and high-end markets with different products.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Here, if the Storm outperformed the Apogee (and again, I'm going to think it does until proven otherwise) I can't think of any reason that Swiftech wouldn't just jack the price of the Storm back to where it was, secure in the knowledge that people like us will still shell out the bucks for that extra 2 degrees. If the market's there, why not serve it?
Then again...having a higher end product might make your other products less attractive by comparison. Hmmm. Guess there's no way to know without Swiftech telling us, and that's probably not going to happen.
So who's going to be the first to do a real comparison...?
who says they do? are you saying they should change or fabricate data so it suits whatever their motivations are?Quote:
Originally Posted by aMp
you are right, the performance data that swiftech has made publicly available and prided itself on for years now should not be posted on the product page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plywood99
edit: just to spell something out because a lot of you guys are saying things which i think are untrue. there is no reason to believe that the data swiftech has presented is the result of an agenda. whether or not it misrepresents comparitive performance is question. but to say it can't be trusted and that swiftech is trying to pull something here is ludacris i think.
Orkan, there is alot we don't know about their tests, we can't conclude anything without 3rd party verification, if you believe their data, I have a bridge to sell you.
Absolutely. I don't think anyone thinks otherwise. I know Swiftech is using data in which they believe in, worked hard on getting, that is not the issue. The issues with the TTV are numerous IMO, and this is the root of the problem. The TTV is NOT intended for testing in the way Swiftech is using it. It is designed for AIR sinks not WB's and no one knows what is happening at the core of the heat source. Anyway, time will tell i guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowwie
Me, believing it... or you DIS-believing it at this point is the exact same thing - NEITHER of us have any data to prove or disprove...Quote:
Originally Posted by fareastgq
so get off your horse... chief.
I don't believe or not believe, just saying you shouldn't make assumptions. Has nothing to do with horses.
Honestly I still have a swiftek mcw5002p block and my budy owns a 6000series one and performance wise the blocks are very comparable and our systems are nearly identical. The storm IMHO is a better performing block down to the t. The new apogee looks like a remilled 5002p internaly (Ive dismantled my block more than a fiew times)
I would not want to buy the apogee over the storm. Too bad im not in the market for a new block but if I were the storm is my choice.
FYI the dimond crap they push is ancient waterblock design that does better and better with better pumps. But the storm will give better performance with less pump power.
Just my ramblngs on the subject.
Old but still usefull.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaguarking11
And the Storm blocks preformance will scale with better pumps as well.
Err, no. And frankly I'm not sure where you draw that from. Like I said above, I'm confused by the whole deal, and I'm waiting for independent testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowwie
you are saying they are pushing the apogee over the storm, and by that i think you mean that swiftech is trying to influence its buyers to buy the apogee instead of the storm. that is what you are saying, no? i'm saying they aren't trying to influence buyers to buy the apogee over the storm, and to think they are just because the test performance data they collect and present publicly leans toward the apogee is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowwie
Hmm, That is pretty much what I'm thinking. Apogee should bring more money to Swiftech's pocket. Top is cast delrin, not machined like the Storm. Huge savings right there. Base is also much easier to fabricate.
Why do you think they are replacing the Storm with the Apogee in their kits? I don't think it is because of performance. Money, money and more money...
but you are implying they are doing it by means of the performance data...gah, forget it, think whatever you guys want
I can make assumptions about my water loop all I like. I have more knowledge about my system than anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by fareastgq
Not sure if I understood that.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowwie
Anyway, I'm saying the data is very "convenient". Allowing them to replace a costlier product with a cheaper one, and convincing people it is better to boot...
Some TTV info for ya, note the highlighted bit. Taken from HERE bottom of page 77.
http://www.anonforums.com/builds/ttv.gif
Hey, what else is XS for if not arcane nitpicky debate? :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by snowwie
I'm not saying they're fabricating anything. To fabricate data in an industry in which even the noob-iest purchasers are genuine hardware enthusiasts would be marketing suicide. I was actually referring to what looks like deliberate targeting of the Storm in their PR literature, just a subjective feeling I get about their intent. Speaking of which, does anybody know if they're going to discontinue the Storm?
AmP, I get what you mean, I agree TBH, why not promote a block that is cheaper, with a better profit margin, It does seem like they are making the block better than what it prob is. Mainly because everyone knows the storm is king, proven with independent testing, now nikhsub1, I agree with you that they are being honest with the data, however, as an analogy, I'll offer this to everyone, If you walked into a suit shop, (and I used to sell them, so I do know what I am talking about) I could sell you 2 suits, one could be total crap and the other could be pure quaility, however they both look cosmetically the same and they are both made of wool, Now, the shop, knowing that the crap item may not be better, will STILL try to make it look as good as the high end suit, they will say, they looks the same, made of the same material, so it must be at least as good, or just a little bit worse, Joe Blow will buy the cheaper one because he thinks they are the same. Joe Blow will listen to the marketing engine and believe that there is little difference in the 2 products. The next guy walks in, I try to sell him the same 2 things, he however is a bit more reserved, he'll ask his friends first who actually have owned both suits to see which one they like better. Then he'll come back and get one. I'm nto saying the new block is crap, I'm sure it isn't, that was just a harsh analogy to get the point across to people, Which one are you going to be folks? Orkan, u may have more knowledge about your system, that's true, but do you really know the test methods of the block in question? does anyone have the block that is qualified to test it yet? Do you know exactly how the TTV works? If u wanna be the one to test it, no problem. My problem is that your putting your full faith in that swiftech data. What do you think that data is there for? It's purely a marketing tool, same as when thermaltake puts fan dba ratings on their fans that everyone knows, CANNOT be correct because they have used it and other fans rated differently, BUT the way they test it, they didn't lie about the data, certianly not, but the test method is questionable.
fareastgq, your suit analogy is cute however, it in no way relates to Swiftech and their blocks or data. The don't have 2 sets of data, the data they do have they believe in. Their data is telling them the Apogee is a better block for the most part. They don't think the Storm is the better block, that is the whole point it's all about them believing in data that inherently has many flaws that Swiftech refuses to acknowledge the fact that there may be an issue with their testbed.
I agree with you, except the part that it doesn't relate to swiftech, It's true they don't have 2 sets of data for the appogee, they do have a set of data for the apogee and the storm though.
Why do some people pretend that companies that want to make more money than they currently do are "evil" or "bad" or even "anti xtremesystems.org"
The singular and only reason for a company to exist is to make profit. Nothing more nothing less. If you don't wanna buy the apogee. then don't buy it. If you don't wanna buy the storm, DON'T BUY IT. You're all acting as if Swiftech has some sort of vendetta against cathar.
Well Swiftech may not be against Cathar (and BillA by the way), but the way they present their case, surely leaves Cathar in a bad position having to defend himself without disclosing much details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibu
Just imagine they had the answer for all their misery all this time in their own backyard and no one noticed or cared until now, and it even equals the Storm.
What a treasure!