Ian McNaughton goes out against The Way it's Meant to be Played

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Originally Posted by DilTech

Eh...

First, about that whole A. Creed thing. Did you guys forget that with that path on certain shaders didn't work properly(dust particles and the like) and lights bled THRU walls? The shader path was removed because it didn't work properly, and ATi didn't offer the support to ubisoft to help them make it work.

Also, I can tell you first hand NVidia supports developers with things besides money. Certain people here will tell you about the toy they had in our hands back when the 7800GTX 512mb came out. They give developers hardware that never sees the light of day as far as the consumers know, just to make sure they have a way to test their code that isn't a software renderer. I can tell you right now that ATi has never put a single piece of hardware in our hands... and it's not like we haven't asked for anything to test on.

To those who say "well, NVidia can't possibly give that much help"...They do. They have a test lab with just about every possible configuration when it comes to nvidia hardware to test your application on to make sure it's going to work across a wide spectrum of hardware. You also have to remember that NVidia employ a lot more people than ati. They have people who's sole job IS testing said applications, finding the bugs, verifying if it's the game code or the driver, and giving a list of possible fixes to the developer. If anything, NVidia does more for the game industry than ATi has ever dreamed of doing, and pays for it with the money the consumer spends on their video card... How is that bad for the consumer? If ATi would do the same, perhaps PC gaming would actually move back up in terms of how many game studios are still out there.

The fact that people here still believe TWIMTBP is merely a money hat program makes me laugh. Developers have freely explained exactly how it works time and time again. Also, about the whole AA thing for ATi cards, is anyone anywhere close to sure it never causes an issue? I mean, I could always attempt it myself and strip the securom and tell it my card is an NVidia and play through the entire game again.

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It's so nice when somebody posts exactly your thoughts. I fully onehundredpercently agree. Couldn't have said it better.

WWW III is coming.:eek:TWIMTBP TITLES SUCK ANYWAY.:p:But just in case something good come's out of it I will build a nvidia rig,ONE DAY.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Xoulz

Honestly, what's the big deal?

This clandestine method is needed, to help nVidia's re-branded hardware look as fast as ATi's last gen...



Jen-Hsun Huang has lost his touch..

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Whats the big deal?:confused: It's called cheating and market rigging ...in short entirely unethical & deceitful business practices!

This is typical and exactly what Intel/ Microsoft do and the majority of code writers who accommodate and favor Intel because of their Monopoly power in the market place.

Regardless of who's doing what there needs to be a level playing ground and rules , standards and guidelines need to be followed to ensure everyone gets a fair shake.;)

All the customers that have an ATI, and paid 50 bucks for the game, deserve it in the best shape and form possible.
AA (as AF) are common features nowadays, so no excuse for this "omission".

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Originally Posted by DilTech

Eh...
about the whole AA thing for ATi cards, is anyone anywhere close to sure it never causes an issue? I mean, I could always attempt it myself and strip the securom and tell it my card is an NVidia and play through the entire game again.

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Not sure if it causes issues in the game. A quick google search shows me that people disabled the hardware vendor id check & changed ATi card ID to nv device ID to trick the game. They confirm that NV exclusive MSAA works on Ati cards, and also that "physx" effects are protected by Securom, but still possible to run on the CPU (and in multiple threads). However, doing that is very buggy, probably due to (like you said) poor developer support on Ati's part.

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Originally Posted by Piotrsama

All the customers that have an ATI, and paid 50 bucks for the game, deserve it in the best shape and form possible.
AA (as AF) are common features nowadays, so no excuse for this "omission".

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QFT!

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

How exactly did Nvidia screw their consumers?

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"screwing consumers" not "their consumers", consumers as a whole, included ati users

What seems to be lost here (of the first page I read and skimmed over the other two) is that when someone says "ATI tried TWIMTBP program and failed" or "ATI did x in the past", is that ATI no longer exists.

AMD is all that exists now, with just ATI engineers working on AMD graphics cards with ATI brand logo. AMD is making this comment, not the non-existent company once called ATI.

ATI may have tried many things in it's past, but all that is in the past now that AMD owns them. AMD has always been a company about open standards and trying to put the consumer first, yes they try to make a profit like every other company but the tit for tat that ATI and Nvidia have had is something AMD doesn't even get into.

What AMD is complaining about here is that Nvidia is basically paying developers to make AMD hardware run worse than Nvidia's artificially. Remember Assassins Creed DX10.1 BS?

What is going on is that you, the paying consumer, are being screwed by Nvidia's business tactics in order for marketing department to trick you out of your money.

It is one thing to get close to developers in order to get your hardware to run better with their software, it is entirely another pay to make your competitor's hardware perform worse.

What AMD is trying to say is, they are a company that embraces open standards, yeah they want to make video cards faster Nvidia in order to pull good profit, but they aren't going to do it by playing dirty doing ANTI-CONSUMER BS like Nvidia does all the time.

I know many of us, including myself, go with whichever video card offers the best price/performance/watt, it is simple and to the point. However Nvidia is trying to trick/manipulate the system in order to gain an artificial upper hand. The things that Nvidia has done is so numerous to list. Maybe you don't care what a company does, but personally I don't reward anti-consumerism.

I won't by L4D2, I don't buy DRMed games, and I'm not going to buy Nvidia cards if this is the kinds of business practices Nvidia likes to pull.

For chrissakes, the source is AMD. It's embarrassing how quick some people are to immediately take it as gospel truth. Nothing else has been offered from either Nvidia or the companies who have put out the games. No wonder so many companies out there consider 'smear tactics' a valid business strategy - threads like this show how many people are willing to immediately believe and loudly parrot the worst they hear.

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Originally Posted by Stukov

What seems to be lost here (of the first page I read and skimmed over the other two)

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That might be your problem right there. There are some concise, informed rebuttals to some of your points to be found, if you can spare a few minutes. ;)

Stuk, A. Creed had visual artifacts when running in DX10.1 mode, from lights bleeding through walls to an entire rendering pass missing that included dust particles and other issues... ATi didn't want to invest in helping get it up to snuff, and what interest did NVidia have in doing the work, considering they had nothing to gain in spending the money to make the code work.

It's a case of AMD/ATi refused to put up or shut up, so they pushed the blame on NVidia instead.

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Originally Posted by MpG

That might be your problem right there. There are some concise, informed rebuttals to some of your points to be found, if you can spare a few minutes. ;)

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this thread is growing fast, i go out to lunch, and im 2 pages behind.

someone here should pay a moderator to condense all the arguments to simple factual points, but also only ask them to do a good job on the ones they made and make their opponents sound wrong. (remind you of something, lol)

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Right because ATi cards never have performance issues and bugs in non-TWIMTBP titles. :)

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Whatever comes out and is fastest I buy. Don't penalize me because I didn't go with a certain product.

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Originally Posted by Vinas

what about binoculars?

My response made as much sense as yours here. Obviously cards have bugs but TWIMTBP is stupid IMHO.

Whatever comes out and is fastest I buy. Don't penalize me because I didn't go with a certain product.

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im happy you used IMHO, too many think their opinions are the bible. in my opinion i think nvidia does a good job of offering alot of features for their hardware.

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Originally Posted by FUGGER

Glow9,

"I can't imagine Nvidia devoting that much time and effort."

They do.

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Seems like Fugger is on the payroll???
You see the Nvidea add in the top corner!

Rule No. 1 - Follow the money

How sad is it companies like Intel & Nvidea are allowed to cheat their way to the top with the help of greedy and corruptible 3rd parties (Probably Fugger included)

And guess what, it will only get worse because to many people will happily go along with getting screwed over.

I can see it now! Published correspondence between Fugger & Nvidea made available courtesy of the EU.

Bottom line Nvidea is directly paying to harm consumers for their own greedy gain with the help of some big name 3rd parties.

Anyone remember the fairly recent GPU article Tom's did, which used grossly incorrect pricing to justify why Nvidea GPU's offered better price Vs performance??? You should have read the comments people left after reading that article Lol!

:smoke:

Wonder how long this post will last.

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Originally Posted by MpG

For chrissakes, the source is AMD. It's embarrassing how quick some people are to immediately take it as gospel truth. Nothing else has been offered from either Nvidia or the companies who have put out the games. No wonder so many companies out there consider 'smear tactics' a valid business strategy - threads like this show how many people are willing to immediately believe and loudly parrot the worst they hear.


That might be your problem right there. There are some concise, informed rebuttals to some of your points to be found, if you can spare a few minutes. ;)

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Yeh the first complaint came from AMD about Intel as well.
We all know how that turned out.

AMD needs to borrow apples legal team.

I wish I was on the payroll.

That is a Gigabyte competition in the top right.

Your post will remain, priceless as it is.

Ah, 216 is banned Rhys aka Rhys216...

Let me show you to the door. /slam

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Originally Posted by FUGGER

Yes we all agree that ATI has poor to non existant developer support or relations to let things like this happen.

Best to let the developer answer as to why, my best guess is failed validation. Perfectly compatible? unknown at this time.

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Their GITG program was such a huge success... not. ATi/AMD still have the program up & running but it's been turned towards CrossFire instead of making games better & getting more features into games. It's still a failed program as far as game development goes.

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Originally Posted by DilTech

Eh...

First, about that whole A. Creed thing. Did you guys forget that with that path on certain shaders didn't work properly(dust particles and the like) and lights bled THRU walls? The shader path was removed because it didn't work properly, and ATi didn't offer the support to ubisoft to help them make it work.

Also, I can tell you first hand NVidia supports developers with things besides money. Certain people here will tell you about the toy they had in our hands back when the 7800GTX 512mb came out. They give developers hardware that never sees the light of day as far as the consumers know, just to make sure they have a way to test their code that isn't a software renderer. I can tell you right now that ATi has never put a single piece of hardware in our hands... and it's not like we haven't asked for anything to test on.

To those who say "well, NVidia can't possibly give that much help"...They do. They have a test lab with just about every possible configuration when it comes to nvidia hardware to test your application on to make sure it's going to work across a wide spectrum of hardware. You also have to remember that NVidia employ a lot more people than ati. They have people who's sole job IS testing said applications, finding the bugs, verifying if it's the game code or the driver, and giving a list of possible fixes to the developer. If anything, NVidia does more for the game industry than ATi has ever dreamed of doing, and pays for it with the money the consumer spends on their video card... How is that bad for the consumer? If ATi would do the same, perhaps PC gaming would actually move back up in terms of how many game studios are still out there.

The fact that people here still believe TWIMTBP is merely a money hat program makes me laugh. Developers have freely explained exactly how it works time and time again. Also, about the whole AA thing for ATi cards, is anyone anywhere close to sure it never causes an issue? I mean, I could always attempt it myself and strip the securom and tell it my card is an NVidia and play through the entire game again.

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Completely agree, nVidia work with the developers, ATi pays them lip-service then complain about nVidia's TWIMTBP program. ATi/AMD should start to work with developers more, in the "fair" way they like to preach & stop wasting money on press releases moaning about things.

Some ATi fans are seriously becoming like the followers of one Mr Jobs, it's only going to end badly.

haha this thread is jokes...

(sorry for OT)

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Originally Posted by FUGGER

Nvidia working closely with game developers validating in game features is a bad thing? Showing us they had to find out the hard way, proves how little they worked with the developers.

ATI needs to step up and develop better programs to assist game developers (hand holding).

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I have to agree. All I hear is excuses excuses excuses. ATI can make good cards so why not trying to establish better relationships with the game developers? ATI should stop playing the same old "we're the underdogs, nobody likes us so please support us" game. You are the second largest manufacturer of graphics cards with thousands of customers how hard for you to connect with the game developers and get a demo from them so you can work out the problems?
Why people would refuse to work with you?

Having said that, I hope ATI changes their strategies and stay as a formidable competitive to NVdia. Remember the socket 939 dominance days? Conroe came out as a result of that.

NO ONE who really knows one card from another really cares about TWIMTBP, well besides the usual delusional conspiracy theorist green haters in out midst. Most of the time in my life spent looking at the stupid nvidia logo was likely on my 9700pro and X850XT anyways. If AMD cannot get ATI bagdes on games with the same ease Nvidia does its their lack of effort.

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Originally Posted by DilTech

Stuk, A. Creed had visual artifacts when running in DX10.1 mode, from lights bleeding through walls to an entire rendering pass missing that included dust particles and other issues... ATi didn't want to invest in helping get it up to snuff, and what interest did NVidia have in doing the work, considering they had nothing to gain in spending the money to make the code work.

It's a case of AMD/ATi refused to put up or shut up, so they pushed the blame on NVidia instead.

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Lol at your post DilTech!
You basically say that ATI would have to "invest" (pay Ubi Soft so...) to make them correctly implement DX10.1 mode in A.Creed :eek:

They do the job for Oblivion, they do the job for R6:Vegas. Why they have to do the job for A.Creed?

To focus on Batman:AA, i have no problem seeing Nvidia giving money for PhysX support (only them have it) but i have a problem seeing Nvidia giving money to no let ATI cards using something in the game they can use (AA).

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Originally Posted by SamHughe

Having said that, I hope ATI changes their strategies and stay as a formidable competitive to NVdia. Remember the socket 939 dominance days? Conroe came out as a result of that.

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What the link between ATI and socket 939 dominance days?
Ok i see, Intel pay for manufacturer support and AMD didn't...

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Originally Posted by Fugger

Ah, 216 is banned Rhys aka Rhys216...

Let me show you to the door. /slam

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Really? I thought it was somebodys alias.

Anyway nothing starts flame wars faster than an ATI vs Nvidia thread.
I'm getting rather tired of this nonsense...

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Originally Posted by JohnJohn

"screwing consumers" not "their consumers", consumers as a whole, included ati users

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Why in God's name should Nvidia care about ATi users? I'm still waiting to hear how they're screwing consumers by giving them AA.

i would love for ATI to get more involved with developers. they should hire me to play upcoming games, on an ATI rig. im even willing to work for a guy who thinks hes in the matrix, and getting sucker punched by a kung fu monkey, and loose my virginity to a woman whos had STDs since the great depression. no wait, somehow i dont think it will be worth it.

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

How exactly did Nvidia screw their consumers?

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For example, Batman with Physics workaround on a CPU (note the word workaround):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUOr4cFWY-s

But guess what... Its a "The way its meant to be payed" game so most features are gone once you disable proprietary PhysX. :welcome:

Talk about artificially limiting gaming experience!