If you are curious, i'm going to say give graphite a try... 8-)
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If you are curious, i'm going to say give graphite a try... 8-)
You're getting a little warmer now...
Nanotherm, always appreciate your point of view and knowledge.
Reading the paper, it would seem that carbon black is not so much a filler as it is a synergistic agent that complements the PEG and ethyl cellulose. Much like I *assume* PCM+ uses different materials to reach its design goal(s).
If I understand the paper correctly, the carbon black isn't so much a filler or conductive agent as it is the carrier of the agents PEG and ethyl cellulose - plus the deformability of carbon black is presumed to fill in the microscopic "voids" while allowing metal-to-metal contact at the "peaks".
I work with an altered form of carbon black all the time at work - copier/printer toner. A shame that the plastic component of toner precludes using it for this "fun" I'll try to have.
The reason this intrigues me so is that I've been trying to come up with a low-tech way to use solder for the TIM for several years, without success.
ASII and III were great commercial successes but I've always found them to be little to no better than well-applied rat-shack generic paste. Plus, I "collect" new paste tech - hence the purchase of the PCM+. I even tried the automotive copper anti-sieze paste - why not? (I had terrible temps with that though, the copper wasn't fine enough is my guess).
I have access to the necessary measures to "formulate" the CB TIM, and to play around with various percentages of the materiels.
Best of luck and success to your company!
Very cool :cool: You obviously understand the nuances of carbon better than most. I've got a butt-load of all types that I mess around with here and there. I still believe it has some possiblities, but haven't had as good a luck with carbon as I've had with other types of fillers. One of these days I'll come across the right combination - but it probably won't be with carbon black, though. God bless Dr. Chung if she's made it work for her in some way shape or form.
You work with toner, huh? Nasty stuff that is - goes and gets everywhere. I live right down the road from Xerox and Kodak and know a thing or two about toner myself. The particles might be about the right ize, but, yeah, to bad about that insulative plastic component.
You might try Conoco or some specialty divisions of the major oil companies. Good luck and keep us posted on your experiments.
Woulnd't Diamond Dust be an even better phase-change/filler if mixed with the correct catalyst?
I clean up toner lol - Computer tech/printer tech/copier tech. Pays the bills, but the job is only (just barely) a step above Mickey D's in pay :( The price you pay to live in a small town, but I gladly traded the 6 figure salary and the corporate shivs for the life ;)
Theorectically speaking, yes - practically speaking, no. The problem with diamond particles is that they are crystalline and multifaceted in nature with a lot of surface area. The particle-to-particle contact is, therefore, severly limited and whatever small amount of heat that is transferred between particles (or even between surfaces) is not enough to make it even a mediocre choice as thermally conductive filler material. If you could make me a nice smooth, plate-like diamond particle, I'd be interested in buying some, though ;)
Well, I have to commend you on that - and you'll live longer and be happier. :)Quote:
Originally posted by sjohnson
I clean up toner lol - Computer tech/printer tech/copier tech. Pays the bills, but the job is only (just barely) a step above Mickey D's in pay :( The price you pay to live in a small town, but I gladly traded the 6 figure salary and the corporate shivs for the life ;)
Just some warnings, from my initial research:
"Ethyl cellulose is an off white granular powder that is hazardous to humans so contact and inhalation should be avoided" - http://mason.gmu.edu/~jdiesel/ethylcellulose.html
-AND-
"Polyethylene glycol-electrolyte solution (PEG-ES) is used to cleanse the bowel before a gastrointestinal examination or surgery. It works by causing diarrhea." - http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...r/a601097.html
Carbon black is, by itself, safer than mother's milk.
Let's be careful, K?
Nice stuff, eh? I'll eat the carbon...
Actually, the remark about carbon black is my personal opinion. California considers Carbon Black to be a carcinogen. In some scientific circles it's a *possible* carcinogen when respirated (breathed in).
Heck, I've seen studies that show that water, applied to the skin of rats caused cancer.
Ethyl cellulose, on some web pages is indicated as only causing irritation.
I just wanted to post some links that erred on the side of caution, hence my post about my opinion regarding carbon black.
Live and be well, don't worry, be happy :D :D :D
Nanotherm - what are the chances of beeing able to provide me with some samples (that will then provide to 2 local hardware sites and of course try it out myself ;) )?
I am going to be testing this substance very soon and from my understanding, the costs to manufacture are very low in fact. But someone has make a deal to supply it first.Quote:
Originally posted by Liquid3D
Thanx xgman that's the type of article I just love to read. I've read breifly about Carbon, and Diamond type materials, and their potential for cooling. Yet due to the prohibitive costs, few manufacturers would attmept to make such materials. They'd be fighting an up-hill battle against habit. Poeple have been conditioned to pay low prices for thermal materials, and change is difficult, especially when it's an increase in price. Personally I'd be happy to pay the price if the performance was there. Would i pay $20 for a few grams of thermal paste? I've paid $80 for a 1.5oz bottle of Colonge. Hell I'd buy my Processor all the Colonge it wants, and give it my Fortex watch if it perform better for me.
That's a very distinct possibility. Please drop me a pm and we'll discuss it further ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Rudzer
Nanotherm - what are the chances of beeing able to provide me with some samples (that will then provide to 2 local hardware sites and of course try it out myself ;) )?
You're right, the manufacturing costs for a diamond-based product aren't as horribly prohibitive as one might think - but they are not "low" either. What is prohibitive is the performance. Try it for yourself and see (and please read my post about 7 posts ago).Quote:
Originally posted by xgman
I am going to be testing this substance very soon and from my understanding, the costs to manufacture are very low in fact. But someone has make a deal to supply it first.
The other problem is that diamond is ultimately Abrasive. No matter how carefully you try to apply it to your nice polished and/or lapped HSF or Waterblock, the surfaces are going to wind up being "roughed up" substantially no matter what you do, as will be the surface of your CPU die. If you would like to see picks of what small micron-sized diamond particles can do to a surface, please email me and I'll send some to you. It's not pretty.
Of course, I'm not saying that you should take my suggestions to heart or learn from my own experiences. Try it out if you are determined to do so and and satisfy your own curiousity. You might want to pick up a lapping kit beforehand, though, so you're ready to refinish your surfaces after you've discovered the truth for yourself and you want to go back to your old, favorite TIM ;)
This supports the already obvious conclusion of the research that states "the performance of TIM's is mainly governed by the conformability and speradability and conformabitlity of the material rather than the thermal concuctivity."Quote:
Originally posted by sjohnson
ASII and III were great commercial successes but I've always found them to be little to no better than well-applied rat-shack generic paste. Plus, I "collect" new paste tech - hence the purchase of the PCM+. I even tried the automotive copper anti-sieze paste - why not? (I had terrible temps with that though, the copper wasn't fine enough is my guess).
Diamond? Of the substances tested, the one containing diamond was about 5th below carbon black.Quote:
Originally posted by Nanotherm
You're right, the manufacture costs aren't terribly prohibitive - I won't call them low, though. What is prohibitive is the performance. Try it for yourself and see (and please read my post about 7 posts ago). The other problem is that diamond is Abrasive. No matter how carefully you try to apply it to your mice polished and/or lapped HSF or Waterblock is going to "rough it up" substantially, as well as the surface of your CPU. If you would like to see picks of what even small micron-sized diamond particles can do to a surface, please email me and I'll send some to you. It's not pretty.
I'm saying you take my suggestions and learn from my experiences, though. Try it out your and satisfy your own curiousity. ;)
That statement hits the nail right on the head - and is essentially what I have been saying to people for 2 years when they ask me why I don't spec thermal conductivity measurements for our thermal compounds. Why bother with numbers? The best way to determine if a thermal compound works for a particular application is to try it and see if you like it. Forget about the numbers - the numbers mean little or nothing when it comes to judging the true performance of a TIM. Try to tell that to an engineer, though... :eek:
Pardon the misinterpretation then.Quote:
Originally posted by xgman
Diamond? Of the substances tested, the one containing diamond was about 5th below carbon black.
Nanotherm you got a new pm ;)
Here's a post from Nevin in a thread from December of 2001 on diamonds. The particle size he was working with ranged from 0.125 to 1 micron. ;)
Quote:
While the thermal conductivity of diamond is very high, there are other physical characteristics that make it a poor choice for a thermal compound. Microscopic diamond particles have spikes and sharp edges so the physical contact from one particle to the next is extremely small. The heat travels very well through a particle, but does not transfer well to the next particle. When you are talking about 50 to 100 particles to make up 1/1000 of an inch, this lack of particle-to-particle conduction is a major problem.
Also, diamond has a great affinity for diamond. Once the compound sits for a few hours, it forms clumps as the diamond particles bunch together. A very bad thing in a thermal compound.
And finally, the wands on high-speed homogenizers are about $1800 each. The bearings on the wand are submersed in the compound being mixed. The highly abrasive diamond particles ruin the bearings each time a batch is mixed. That's a loss of $1800 per 400cc of compound.
Given all this, I have mixed up several test batches of diamond compound.
They all suck.
Nevin
Well, that further substantiates and validates my previous posts about the viability of diamond as a thermally conductive filler material for TIMs. You've got the word from two good sources now. It's a safe bet that you won't be seeing a diamond TIM from either of us in the foreseeable future.
This is another example of scientific methodolgy. The importance of controlled environments, and variables. Lets say the study used coolant water from a leaky Reactor. Well of course the the Rats got cancer. More likely, there could have been any number of contaminants (variables) unbeknownst to the scientists.Quote:
Originally posted by sjohnson
...Heck, I've seen studies that show that water, applied to the skin of rats caused cancer....
I can't tell you the amount of posts, replies, and irratic conclusions I've read in hardware forums, which are simply too open ended for retort, other then on the priciple of their structure. For exmaple, someone earlier, made the comment "All thermal pastes suck" (or simliar). In some respects this may be true. For example, they MAY all suck, compared to IDEAL theoretical solutions. Such as a process that would metamorphosize the multifacted "edges" of the particles, but leave their thermal conductivity in tact. It's also akin to saying Samsung TCB3 IC's suck, because their rated to DDR333. Well OCZ engineered TCB3 Rev-E IC's to perform at DDR510. Doesn't this empirical premise negate the universal claim "all samsung TCB3 IC's suck"?
BTW sjohnson we have much in common in respect to your lifestyle choice. There was time all I wanted was to enter the Advertising feild, and makes lot's o money. Then I fell in love with Philosophy, specifically Neruophilosophy. My father said,"chck the paper, you don't see any Want-ads for Philosophers do ya?" So I changed my major to Law, where i could get away with a BA in Philsophy, a great Pre-Law major. Growing up in Connecticut, ALL I wanted to do when i was young was live it up in Manhattan nightclubs. One day, I went skiing. A year later I eneded extreme skiing in the Wasatch Mountains, and majoring in Philosophy at teh University of Utah. Since then I lived in a number of small towns from Costa Rica, to Provincetown on Cape Cod. I wouldn't trade the natures's sprirituality, for the largest home on Fith Avenue. I love small towns, and those of us left, who still beleive in a community. I'm materially poor, and sprritually wealthy. I'm sure you can empathize with that centeredness?
Two things - the experiment was done with distilled water, onto the shaved necks of immobilized rats. One drop/second for (IIRC) 180 days. I believe that the irritation factor would be the most likely cause of the cancer. My point is that *anything, misused* can be hazardous and/or dangerous. Conversely, anything used properly and carefully will have little likelyhood of causing harm.
And, I certainly do empathize. Why is where I live so "good"? It's a well kept secret :D :D
Does anyone in Australia sell this Nanotherm PCM?
I'd like to try some out too.. :)
FT.