Xtreme 2006 Autocascade Competition

you don't really need another gas you can just use the propane, add either a pretty long cap tube (you only want to flush with it and not cause massive floodback. so you probably need about 5 meters) between a place where there is liquid propane and the CO2 entrance of the HX, the co2 will condens along with the liquid propane forming a nice mix. Or a shorter cap tube between the discharge (everything gas) and the CO2 entrance of the HX. both methods have some advantages but I think I like the short cap tube the most just because you don't need a massive cap tube.

btw member of what? I don't think I'll mind though

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unknown_road

you don't really need another gas you can just use the propane, add either a pretty long cap tube (you only want to flush with it and not cause massive floodback. so you probably need about 5 meters) between a place where there is liquid propane and the CO2 entrance of the HX, the co2 will condens along with the liquid propane forming a nice mix. Or a shorter cap tube between the discharge (everything gas) and the CO2 entrance of the HX. both methods have some advantages but I think I like the short cap tube the most just because you don't need a massive cap tube.

btw member of what? I don't think I'll mind though

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Okey, I will try this method, thanks

member of this competition of course :)

sure but I'm not sure how my autocascade will end up yet :D . My main goal in building the autocascade is research so I keep changing stuff after every test run :D .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unknown_road

sure but I'm not sure how my autocascade will end up yet :D . My main goal in building the autocascade is research so I keep changing stuff after every test run :D .

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Hehe, so if you will know your end autocascade config, just give me pm or write here and I will add you, maybe you`ll win ! :toast: (sure, I wish you that)

I`ve got new personal record :p

-58*C on auto-c :p

Luke, is it autocascading ?

I think yes, I`m using R290/CO2.

Pressures:

13bar on highside
0,4bar on lowside

So it must autocascading...I think :)

Co2 tripple point is -56.6c;)

and the trick is to go lower ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by berkut

and the trick is to go lower ;)

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yep when ya get -60c then close to -70c ya know ya cookin;)
When ya hit -80c ya know ya rocking
-83.5c with c02 was my personal best for last compertition

I think I`ve got it....yesterday auto-c hited -64,5*C on evap.

I next few days I will show some photos with (I hope) -75*C on evap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LukeXE

I think I`ve got it....yesterday auto-c hited -64,5*C on evap.

I next few days I will show some photos with (I hope) -75*C on evap.

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nice, not many ppl got that cold last compertition, now ya autocascading:toast:

Kayl, how your autocascade is doing ? :) any progress ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LukeXE

Kayl, how your autocascade is doing ? :) any progress ?

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nothing hey been busy with single stages and planning frozen cascade cascade.
I was gonna wait till there is some nice compertition before getting too serious. when does it end again?
i got all the parts and have a start here (pipe will be half that size though :stick: )
i think your the only one in the compertition that has posted some finished results
full thread of at TP as you know here

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/1613/hx2ue.th.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kayl

nothing hey been busy with single stages and planning frozen cascade cascade.
I was gonna wait till there is some nice compertition before getting too serious. when does it end again?
i got all the parts and have a start here (pipe will be half that size though :stick: )
i think your the only one in the compertition that has posted some finished results
full thread of at TP as you know here

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/1613/hx2ue.th.jpg

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Competition ends, I think, on 1 September.

Thanks, I`m waiting for any progress in others autocascades (in my class), and I`m very interested in auto-c in other classes.

So, we have 2 months to competition end.

By the way, PLEASE post ice bath shots ! ( I`m writing this to members who doesn`t posted it yet)

- n00b 0f l337
- Muciek
- aussie_guy00000
- Jort
- Duniek
- Fatty
- Johann
- Hatemi
- gkiing
- Fhqwhgads6680
- esdee

Hmmmmm ? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :fact:

Not everybody have time now :(

I think I can have problems to make it till end of August :(

Can't we make finish date on 1 October, really ? :rolleyes:

Regards
Peter

Quote:

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Originally Posted by piotres

Not everybody have time now :(

I think I can have problems to make it till end of August :(

Can't we make finish date on 1 October, really ? :rolleyes:

Regards
Peter

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I vote for that.

That seems a little better, though I think I can get my ice bath today. :)
BTW I got 12 temprite oil seps coming I'm going to build and test with one of those, before I pop in my own phase sep and watch the system die... :P

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9958/iceshot9zv.jpg

Bump for my icebath above ^^^

I am debating on joining up for this competition. If we can bump it to October 1st then I might have a chance on learning how to build an Autocascade. I need to find a compressor to do this with, think it is possible to build an autocascade for under $150 for just materials? Time to start researching and maybe I can throw something together.

$150, even I can't do that...
My panasonic 3/4 hp (btw i gotta update my gear for this) was $55 shipped from EBAY!
Then a large condenser, price of copper, price of building phase sep and HX/SLHX's and your way over $150.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

That seems a little better, though I think I can get my ice bath today. :)
BTW I got 12 temprite oil seps coming I'm going to build and test with one of those, before I pop in my own phase sep and watch the system die... :P

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9958/iceshot9zv.jpg

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Looks like Your UEI is untuned :( - please try with only one probe attached :) .

Peter

1.6C off with only a cup and the probes touching the glass? Not untuned at all, its quite accurrate, just the cup was throwing it off.
I'll try one probe.

You say 1 October ? I can`t say "Yes, we will change the finish date" because I`m not the judge ;)

Runmc or Chilly1 should decide about that, I`m little bit dissapointed because really I have tried to finish auto-c 2 months before finish date, and those 2 months play with gasses etc. I have spent a lot of money, I have sold some nice stuff to get money to end this project earlier, and now we will change finish date for one month, huh :D

But probably I`m the one which is in that situation, so it`s no problem for other people.

We had 6 months to finish our autocascades, it`s very big period of time, not only for me, but for all of us :)

But don`t be angry for my post, don`t understand it bad :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

1.6C off with only a cup and the probes touching the glass? Not untuned at all, its quite accurrate, just the cup was throwing it off.
I'll try one probe.

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1.6c off is a lot on precision instrument reading.
one of my UEI is really funny. I noticed it kind of averaging 2 probe temp,.... i put one for ambient and my cascade evap for another one. For some wierd reason... load temp was at -82c @ 200w... I was like... hmmm what happened... thats when i noticed ambient temp reading being abnormally low. So I unplugged it, and voila, evap is back to -94c. Since i do have 2 other UEI I experimented and one showed similar problem (only by about 3-4c off really though) and the other about 2c off. I think it is their design that makes this happen in general. (differential is much smaller obviously when you have less temp difference between 2 readings...). Needless to say the iffy one was RMA'd.

thanks n00b for ice bath shot, I updated first post ;)

Well if its reading high I geuss I'm at a disadvantage. :P

I have another thermometer I'm going to be using for this competition, so here is the ice bath shot for that one too:

http://www.baughman-eshbach.com/autocascade/50.jpg

Well it's not like I actually HAD time, but I took it :p: I was starting to feel a little down about not even touching the 'good stuff' for so long, and this felt very good indeed :)

I have to change my spec a little cos I gave away my 3/4HP compressor to a friend, and I just don't have time to deal with TEV, so...

1/2HP Hitachi Rotary R22 compressor.
7.5' .028" Low, 6' .028" high captube.
3.5m coiled HX 1/2" over 3/16".
Danfoss HP cutoff. (currently set to 375psi/6bar reset)

Evap made by a good friend on his lathe, reverse flow 4 step with groove for mount, and I may be able to borrow a chilly mount for it if it's ok, otherwise will do a 'custom' mount for it. Up to you guys ;) I had to get creative with the ring as it was cut a little deep and wide, but a rubber ring holding the c-clip in place seems to be doing the job.

Gasses (for better or for worse) will now be 402a/R23 as I ran out of R22, and don't want to deal with 290 again. Sticks to the R23 a little too well for my liking. I may get my R22 soon enough but will update that again if I do.

So...pics...

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02905.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02906.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02909.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02908.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02907.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02911.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02910.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02912.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02913.jpg

So yeah, that's about it for now, I'm vaccing it out, and will pressure test it in a bit. I don't know if I'll have time to deal with charging it up until next week or not, but we'll see.

I made it fit on that plate which is something I was really hoping for. I don't know if anyone noticed the slhx ;) but I'm hoping that it will do just enough to get me some good separation without going overboard.

Cheers

Gray

I'm impressed... so thats what you were doing last night lol good luck gray you have a winner there

I see a solid suction line! Seems we all did learn a bit bout Cryo_Tek.

Gray, this autocascade looks really sweet ! Good luck with first run

Well it's working well enough so far, getting the basic charge close enough was a pain (as usual) but currently I'm sitting with no load at around a 190psi static (little high, but could be worse) and running wtih no load around 250psi high, and 3" or so low in vac. AMbient is finally down to around 25c or so, it was getting close to 40c in the shed today :eek: not your average North UK weather.

Compressor is running around 90-95c, which for a rotary is just fine with me. It's got a temp cutout for 150c, so I'm nowhere near that.

I'm autocascading anyways, and that's half the battle. The other half is finetuning the load charge for best temps, not easy at the best of times. I'm going to do what I normally do first, use the 150w tester to set it up, then as per the rules I'll have to sacrifice a cpu under it's coldness for testing :D (If we're still putting these things onto cpu's. I am still not sure about whether it's that, load tester, or just whatever we feel like doing :D )

Some pics...

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02915.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02917.jpg

http://www.picturehosting.com/images...e/dsc02918.jpg

Yes, my shed is a little cluttered, I was focussing on making this work, not on cleaning up :rolleyes:

That's the ghetto insulation, and I will be dressing some weak spots up that I've noticed, and likely doing the full foam treatment on the HX. I only had some very large 9mm armaflex piping and I know that's not really enough to keep it insulated well.

But it's autocascading well enough for the moment, and I'll be doing more soon for both insulation and for load tuning and charging.

I'm hoping to see similar performance to the last one without the compressor overheat problems, of around -70 no load, and -60 load at 150w. If I can beat that then I will be very happy, but we'll see ;)

Cheers

Gray

Looking good gray!

I've always wanted to build an autocascade - i'll add it to the list of 1000 things i want to do when i got some free time next lol!

nice job gray!

very nice gray....
The unit promises....:)

hi, Does anybody know, how will work R507 with CO2 in auto-c ?

Glad to see you guys are still on the fronteir of the autocascade field :D

I should be doing work on my auto-c soon, have to play with my new oxy-acetylene torch.

Quote:

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hi, Does anybody know, how will work R507 with CO2 in auto-c ?

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I think its going to make condensing co2 a bit harder. R507's a lot harder to condense then r22 or propane.

Uhhhhh....hard weekend I had !

I thinked really serious about quiting the competition, because I didn`t know how to tune good that auto-c...still I had bad temps on evap, no matter on what gasses ratio ite...

Evap temps sucked really, but I heard, that in evap suction line is very, very big amount of refrigerant...It was something like a river in suction line :) But I put evap to my ear and I heard....small and quiet "pssss"...WTF ????

I taked thermocouple in my hand and checked temperature few " from evap...-50*C without any tuning ! And evap temp ? -25*C.

I bought this evap from my friend, huh, now I see, that evap really sucks ! Today or tomorrow I will change it and a little bit change a auto-c layout and I will fight with it :)

Cheers

Try a large cap in cap evaporator with lots of space.
You could also possibly have high stage gas exiting with the low stage gas thus lowering your evaporator temperature.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

You could also possibly have high stage gas exiting with the low stage gas thus lowering your evaporator temperature.

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Yeap, I could, but I think that in evap is very, very small amount of refrigerant, or when gas is going thru cap tube and it runs to the evap...it`s going (I don`t have any idea how, maybe evap design is bad?) no to evap, but to suction line exit in evap and boils in suction line, but not in evap.

So that why I have bad evap temp, my evap is now suction line :D

about one I`m pretty sure, I will change evap, I have one more from my cascade, it should work well

I have changed evap and cap tube lenght (now it`s 3m) and we have effect:

http://gorajec.net/lukexe/autocascad...c/P1070178.jpg

I`m happy :)

Never be happy always try and go colder! :P

My purpose is to see -70*C on evap :D

damn sexy stuff, 70 loaded and workable for some years not just weeks or moths, is a good aiming poit

any1 can help me maybe i will join in the future.
got acces to r11 r12 r22 and r23 3stager? what oil? other gases too...
thx

The problem currently with Luke's is that you can acheive those temps with r402a and a 1hp rotary. :(

But not with R22 and that suction pressure

I added HX before phase separator, I hope that will help me with separation

It helped a lot ! HX before phase separator rocks !

BTW, there is 7 days and 1 month to end of this competition :) I can`t wait to see few working auto-c :)

Awesome, :)

Today I vacuumed unit few times, to be sure, that there isn`t any ethylene, cause I cuted a little bit captube (30cm) and I must braze it...ethylene is flammable, so :p

when I finished brazing, I pulled vacuum 3 times and charged unit with propane-butane to 4bar, and then to 6bar with co2.

I turned on the unit, and charged with propane to flush the HX. When HX temp droped to -34*C, I started with adding CO2...and after 30min of tuning to have the possible lowest temp I`ve got this...

http://gorajec.net/lukexe/autocascad...c/P1010237.jpg

HX temp -34*C

Discharge pressure -- I don`t know, I didn`t connected manometer.
Low side pressure -- -0,9bar (vacuum).

Earlier I had -74*C with 3psi low side pressure.

Tomorrow I will have fun with dummy load :)

Cheers, very happy LukeXE !

Man those temps are very very nice :D

http://gorajec.net/lukexe/wymiennik_scheme.jpg

HX scheme

Congrats on those temps, that’s pritty darn cold for co2.
Ya might end up wining both divisions yet with those sort of temps.:toast:

1 month and 3 days to the end of competition

If someone built an autocascade, and didn`t post it on XS, please do it.

i ll finish my multi stage ref system, its called project xxx

3 stages, 1st with R134a or something, 2nd R507/Co2, 3rd R1150

with 3 evaps.

can i take part? if yes, in which class?

thx

http://gorajec.net/lukexe/autocascad...s/P1070431.jpg

Loaded temp with 155W dummy load :) (1h)

Congrats Luke, did it just need more cooling before the seperator?

That`s right, HX before phase separator is the best thing that can we give to auto-c.

Thanks n00b for advice about cooling before phase sep to help separate both gasses :toast:

No problem!

So...when we will see your auto-c ? :D I see you`re in co2 division too

n00b 0f l337 --> Rechi 161 ~1/2hp 9,8ccm, Captube/Captube, R22/co2

hmmm ??? :)

Those spec's may have to change. I'm not fealing the rotary...
Can I get a change to...

Matsush1ta 1/3hp Reciprocating, Captube/Captube, R22+290/Co2

I also need to get co2 still. Its being a thorn in my side. :(

Yes, of course, I will change that info in next few minutes.

when we will see some progress ?

Dunno as of yet. :(

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8924/dscn1728pm2.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2393/dscn1745ic8.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3469/dscn1750po5.jpg
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/3882/dscn1779cy8.jpg

I`m happy to see that !

BTW, I wanna dismount my autocascade for competition, because I wanna start building next, 2 stage :)

I posted picks with idle temps, load temps, I don`t think so that I can go lower that that -61,5*C loaded (155W), so could I dismount that unit ?

You mean deconstruct? I don't see why not, can't wait a month though?

Yes, I mean deconstruct :) I wanna start planning piping and everything, so I will deconstruct it today or tomorrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LukeXE

BTW, I wanna dismount my autocascade for competition, because I wanna start building next, 2 stage :)

I posted picks with idle temps, load temps, I don`t think so that I can go lower that that -61,5*C loaded (155W), so could I dismount that unit ?

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That’s some nice temps there LukeXE both loaded and idle.
I think it would be good if ppl when taking pics have it so ya can see the autocascade/ the mains power board with just 2 plugs in it (ie autocascade power cord and the dummy resistor load lead as well) and take the pic so that we can see that the mains wire is plugged in and heatload is clearly powered.
Also be good to see ppl do some pc benches as well as it just makes their thread complete. Ill be doing this in my thread tomorrow, finished it on the week end so ill get some pics of 160w resistor load and also some pics benching my intel dual core and 32m run SPI. Im not sure ill hit -50c load though the autocascade isn’t doing that well this year.

My dummy load is made from 2 resistors 0,47ohm and power supply is 12V trafo :)

So, 0,47ohm x 2 = 0,94ohm

I = 12 / 0,94 = 12,76

P = 12 * 12,76 = ~ 153W

I`m currently rebuilding the cascade to make it 2 stager, I posted results and those will be my last results (idle and load temps). I will try to find a photo which will show, that dummy is connected to power supply :)

Cheers and good luck to everyone

Hey LukeXE,

My Fried Unrockstar wants to join the competition.
He uses a Danfoss SC21CLX with R507/Co2 and captube on both stages.
Is it possible to add him?

Thx, Moc

Of course, I will add him.

Btw, my advice, R507 with co2 isn`t good idea.

R290 or R22 will be better choice ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LukeXE

Of course, I will add him.

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Thanks for adding him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LukeXE

Btw, my advice, R507 with co2 isn`t good idea.
R290 or R22 will be better choice ;)

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Why?

Greets, moc

I`m not sure too much about that, but, as you know, R507 is blend of few refrigerants (2 or 3, I don`t remember). One of them is mixing with co2 and from what I saw, most of R507 is going with co2 to evap, not too much to hx.

R290 and R22 are very good refrigerants to work with co2, no problems and very good results you can achieve with R22/R290/CO2 blend.

BTW, your friend must be hurry, because competition will finish in next 24 days...so if he has got photos of his unit, please post them on XS.

Cheers

Discharge pressure.

thx for your help LukeXE! I told him that and now he will change to R290!

Work in progress...
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5563/dsc0325jo9.jpg
Tanks :D
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5852/dsc0336kj3.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2937/dsc0337kv0.jpg
http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/3422/dsc0338dk8.jpg

R22+R23

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8602/dsc0347te7.jpg

R22+R23+ some R14

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/7780/dsc0384vc3.jpg
To be continued.... :)

Only 7 days left to the end of the competition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LukeXE

Btw, my advice, R507 with co2 isn`t good idea.

R290 or R22 will be better choice ;)

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use r 22 and co2 the molecular weights are 86.40 for r22 and 44.0 for co2 so that shuld help seperation a little, even with the r 22 mostly condensing

We even don`t know that auto-c scheme, without it we can`t say anything to help him :p

finished mine, full details in theread. no time to make a load tester tonight, dead tired from tuning this. i'll do it tomorrow. i already have the heating cartridge and such, just need to put it together and hook it up.

http://www.baughman-eshbach.com/autocascade/done1.jpg

http://www.baughman-eshbach.com/autocascade/done4.jpg

http://www.baughman-eshbach.com/autocascade/done7.jpg

I`m not sure about that, today is the end of the competition, or maybe not ?

FINISH DATE: 01.09.2006

Great autocascade eshbach, nice temps with co2, I hope you will get some nice loaded numbers :D !

So he's got till 11:59:59PM 09/01/2006 XS Time I'd say.

And that`s I wanted to know :)

load temps:

http://www.baughman-eshbach.com/autocascade/load.jpg

details: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=103730

Awesome ! Great job :)

So, that`s the last unit in that competition, because I think it finished :)

I wanna thanks for all you guys who build and make his autocascade working for that competition, I think that we learned a lot :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LukeXE

Awesome ! Great job :)

So, that`s the last unit in that competition, because I think it finished :)

I wanna thanks for all you guy who build and make his autocascade working for that competition, I think that we learned a lot :)

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And we all have you to thank for setting this up, Luke :toast:

I think we will do next competition after New Year :) I think then we will have some units that will reach -100*c unloaded :)

Ah good, and maybe aim for some better looking units this time, say remove the restrictions on building your own parts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

say remove the restrictions on building your own parts?

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Nope, then this competition will win builder with more money in wallet :)

builiding your own parts just makes the competition more fair

Ah but so untrue!
Oil seps on ebay are under $5!
And copper for tube in tube HX is more expensive than plate HX's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

Ah but so untrue!
Oil seps on ebay are under $5!
And copper for tube in tube HX is more expensive than plate HX's.

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but oil seps are useless in our autocascades.

About HX`es, plate HX is expensive (here in poland). For example

Plate HX cost 150$
Tube in tube HX (5m) cost ~35$ (15mm pipe, in it 2x6mm pipe)

I don`t know costs of copper in other country, in USA in homedepot copper is pretty cheap :p

so, maybe we should make a table with places ? 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc ? :) I made a gallery, maybe someone else will do recapitulation (I`m not sure that I used good word :p )

Quote:

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but oil seps are useless in our autocascades.

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Ah but there not! :P
An oil sep without float can make a perfect phase sep.

No, oil is totaly different than liquid refrigerant. So I don't think an oil separator as phase separator will work good.
Its very hard to build a good phase sep.

I can't find any oil seps on eBay here in the UK:(.

Temprite 340 oil sep has been used before as a phase sep, and it does work.

I didn't write it won't work, I wrote that I don't think it will work good!