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Just got a call, the R14 is ready to pick up at my local gas seller! Only waiting for the R23 now, which should arrive on Thursday hopefully.
I won't add Argon for now. No need, and what I saw it gives only better idle temps but does nothing at load (only higher discharge pressure).
excellent soldering skills man...
great job! I really like it.
WHAT A MONsTHAAAA!
damn that will be a nice toy to have!
will it be a good ideea to go for a higher bp freon in place of 507? just a thought.
regards,
q
Why using other refrigerant in place of R507? It's better to have higher suction pressure, thus higher boiling point ---> more capacity.
and the life of the monsthaa? beter to go like in the policold cascade with small steps... i mean diference betwen freons bp shorter than 50c.....Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
U know beter and u have the experience! i dont
try to get that ''leack stop'' or how is that called. will be verry helpfull expecialy for u. We pray so u dont have a leack
good luck,
q
Quote:
Originally Posted by quintus
leak locks only really usefull on flares... but from what ive seen its not neccessary.
loving it
I like how much space these things take up, but they are well worth it.
Today I picked up the R14 and the R23
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/147.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/148.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/149.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/150.jpg
Seems that I have a small leak in third stage. Found nothing with soapy water, rethightened the flares. I hope it is leak free now. If yes than I will charge it tomorrow.
those high pressure bottles scare me out in the open like that. i know its already been discussed but i am a sissy.
Good luck, lets hope the leaks are gone!!
awesome cold_ice, you must have a fortune on gasses laying around by now :D Do you had to buy new regulators for those?
good luck for the continuation :)
awesome stock of gas :p
holy regulator batman! lol, and a wrench to match in the one pic! lol
looking forward to seeing 4th stage load temps =)
I bought an Argon pressure reducer, fits for R14 and for R23. Hydrogen reducer fits for Ethylene, Methane and Ethane...
I have a lot of gasses here now, will make a picture today.
hurry up! :-P
cold-ice: Where did you get the cheaper price for R14? I called messer today, and got a quota of 400€/6kg and 200€/100g... That small botle is insanely priced, but I dont actually have 400+tax+botlerent to spare at this time :D
I got the small bottle from Linde. 1,2kg for 150€ + tax and rent for bottle. Messer wants 450€ +tax for 6kg here...
3rd stage seems to be leak free now, vacuumed it today. Also insulated most parts of first, second and third stage. Hope I can finish 4th stage tomorrow :D
Pics tomorrow.
Good Luck Cold_ice ;)
WAiting for new pics !
Good luck mate :toast: ...pass -160*C :D
I have a fealing he'll be the second member of the -150C club.
third with pcice , no ?
so good luck cold ice , hope you will soon post new pics :p
Yar but dave isnt here anymore. :(Quote:
third with pcice , no ?
4.stage still isn't completed. But I have more time today. I use a CPEV in last stage now, installed a small selfmade receiver already.
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/151.jpg
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http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/159.jpg
sweet dude!!
its hugeeeeee
There is absolutely no ghetto in that cascade. All high quality to the last detail :) There must be about 100€ wotrh of armaflex in there :D
Yes I used alot of Armaflex for this cascade :D
Today I finished the 4th and last stage. I have a small leak at the Rotalockvalve at the expansion tank. Will fix that as soon as possible.
The suction line has very thick Armaflex 32mm on both sides. All the other should be visible at the pictures.
Now only some of the insulation, the charge, the tuning and the eletrical wiring is missing.
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/160.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/161.jpg
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that thing is a monster! can't wait to see some more frost, gl with that!
awesome ;)
this system is absolutely awesome. Can't wait to see it running!
wow i would never have enough patience to do something like that, simply insane
that thing must wiegh over 500lbs!
wooo good luck!
My question is simple:
What do you plan to do with it, and how will you move it?
^^^ and how much are you gonna sell it for?:D
Obviously overclock and obviously a fork-lift.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
i thought he was just gonna use ti for cooling his beer down realy quickley.
maybe he should test it on th beer first.:D
Much more than you can afford, that's for sure :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by ncc-1709
Wow thats a really long suction line...
you havea pretty beautiful mess going on there ice.
OMG :OOOOO :eek2: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:
this is sooo sweett.... my god, this is the cascade of my dreams !!!:shocked:
Congratulations man, i cant wait to see the results !
:toast:
berkut
so..... how is it going?
:toast:
Thx for all the nice words :)
Yesterday I charged the unit. Continued the work today, the first 3 stages are running. First stage is running very nice, temp only rises when starting the second stage for 1-2 minutes, than back to -20° rock stable. Seems that I have alot of R23 in the second stage.
I hope the condenser of the first stage is big enough (1,1kw) because the whole surface get hot today. And only the first 3 stages are running...
The liquid line has about 40°C, although air temp near the cascade is 35-37°C. The heat output is enourmous, normal room temp is 26°C, and near the cascade it 32°C.
Second stage is running fine too, only struggling a bit when third stage starts. But HX-Out Temp is back to -67° in 1 minute.
The third stage doesn't run as I want at the moment. Yesterday I got -125°C HX-In but today i got only -75°C?? Will look tomorrow whats the problem here.
Some pictures:
HX temp second stage
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/169.jpg
HX temp first stage
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/170.jpg
Pressure first stage
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/171.jpg
Pressure second stage
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/172.jpg
Pressure third stage
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/173.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/174.jpg
this realy is one of my favorite projects :)
Nice to see how all the hard work is comming to a result slowly but steady.
hope to see some evap temps soon.
here you go, have a beer :toast:
what a huge cascade :eek:
such a cold making monster :slobber:
good luck cold_ice :toast:
Very impressive... :D
you don't have floodback anymore?
No floodback anymore. I will get a bigger condenser next week. I think LuVe STVF 194 might be a good choice. Has 1,93kw at Delta T of 15K. The current one has only 1,1kw. I hope I have enough space for the bigger condenser...
I want to get the second stage down to -75° loaded.
I think your condenser should be much bigger than it is.
1.93kw might not be good enough... Unless when the system equalizes the heatload will be smaller.
You get quite a lot of frost on the sucktion lines next to the compressors. You could reduce the flow a little. This usually makes a big difference for me. Especially in higher stages.
What do you think what size of condensor I should get? Next week I make a new order at HVAC shop so I will order a new condenser.
You need to add up all the electrical wattage of the compressors ,then add the heat load.
The "heat of compression" will be your biggest load,add that plus the load on the evap,say 300 watts plus add some for line loses. that will give you your condensor load that must be rejected,
Very nice work
1.93kW isn't the maximum rating of the condensor. It is how much heat will be removed at a deltaT of 15K . At 20K the condensor is already able to remove much more heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by berkut
@cold_ice: from the suction pressure and discharge pressure I would say the 1st stage removes about 800-900watt of heat load now. Estimated that the compressor itself will add 500watt, the condensor is now removing 1300-1400watt. With the fourth stage + cpu added, I would say another 500watt is added, resulting in 1800-1900watt for the condensor and 1300-1400watt for the 1st stage compressor.
Since the condensing temperature now is 45 degrees and ambient is 26 degrees with the 1.93kW condensor and 4 stages active I would say you get a condensing temperature between the 40 and 45 degrees. If it is 40 degrees you gain some capacity but since the compressor still needs to remove 1300-1400 watt I think the first HX temp will rise up to -20*C maybe even -15*C.
With the SC21CL I think every 5 degrees in condensing temp you lower you gain about 200watt of capacity which is something like 3-4 degrees gain. If you want to condens @ 35*C I think you need a condensor in the range of 3kW or something but that's a geuss not really based on anything :D
I hope this rambling helps you anything :D
Just keep an eye on your sub-cooling on your first stage. As long as your condensing refrigerant your ok.
Thx for the help. I will look which condenser I'll get next week.
Although today I had some more time for the cascade. The first stage is running much better now. I let out some refrigerant, otherwise the compressor would had been an ice cube without load within some minutes :D
Highside pressure is 15-16bar now, lowside about 1bar. HX-Temps are in -30° range , -28° on suction line after HX (measured with Dixell thermostat). Today the condenser didn't get that hot as yesterday, liquid line was a little above ambient, but rather cool. Although ambient was a bit lower today, 22°C
So the first stage is running fine...
I also tried to get the HX temps of the second stage down. Got it to about -73° on "load" with only 3rd stage running. Although when I start the third stage the HX-out warms up, up to -30°C! After 3 minutes back to -73°. So when the temperature rises, the condensing pressure in third stage is rising too, pressure switch kicks in at 24bar, and relief valve at 25bar (factory setting).
Thus I will get a soleneid valve, which opens the high side to the suction when a certain pressure is reached (for example at 23bar). So hot gas enters the suction, then the heatload on the HX isn't that high on one time. This should allow a slow cooling down of third stage. I hope this works.
Because when I add more R23 to second stage so that the temp is rock stable when starting the third stage, best load temps are around -66°. Which less refrigerant its -75° loaded.
The third stage is running too. Gets down to -120°. But maybe I'll change the captube for a CPEV. I will also drop Alco an email, because I heard that the make TEVs for R14 on request. But I think they will be very expensive, but worth a try....
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/175.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/176.jpg
Very interesting project! -120 is already a nice number :D Good luck!
Wow, -120 on the third stage it's great!
Can't wait to see the forth in action!
Big work!:toast: :clap:
What makes you think you need a condensor?
To replace the small 1,1kw condenser?
1.1 kw@what discharge,ambiant air temp ,fan speed, ? all these affect rating you may be able to pusk 2kw out of it depeng on how it was rated.
check your sub-cooling :measure temp at bottom exit of condensor accuratly.
then measure low side pressure and look on p/t chart of your refrigerant for temperature and subtract. the differance is your subcooling
all you need is 2 to 3 degrees to be sure you have liquad at metering device., see where your at before deciding you need a new condensor.
do you have condensor rating info???
as long as your comfortable the head pressure is not to high and discharge temperature is ok and you have sub-cooling your all right.
watch you discharge temps so you don't cook the oil,thus your compressor. take a amp reading and see how close your compressor is to its FLA. that tells you how hard your stressing things.
your using a TXV on your first stage right? How come the compressor flooded when unloaded? Is your superheat set improperly? Seems like the high pressure from your previous run was because of floodback. Turn the superheat screw a bit clockwise (I think. screw must go more inside the valve) untill the superheat is about 5-10K. If the discharge pressure is keeps below 20bar I won't worry to much about a bigger condensor.
weird that the r23 TXV doesn't react fast on the load change, 3minutes is a long time for a txv.
congratulations with the -120 ;)
-120C with R14 ?
are you using an expansion tank in the 3 stage ?
do you have enough R23 ?
superheat factory settings will make our small systems overflooded, this will reduce capacity instead of increasing it
EDIT: actually, all TXV industrial systems must have their superheat screw tuned, at least if you have a good HVAC tech hehehe
he is using expansion tanks in all stages except the first. since the temperature is restoring I think there is enough r23 in the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by berkut
maybe at start up the load is to much for the orifice to handle?
@blaster: indeed every time I work with a TXV I turn the screw in.
The first thing wich cold ice could do would be connecting the expansion tanks using a capilary tube. This would decrease the heatload during startup as now not all the gases would be pumped once at a time (thus being condensed).Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
The temperture is being restored once you pull the temp down and all the gas from the expansion tank has flowed in to the system.
If i had to judge how much heat load there is during startup of a normal cascade's 2 stage comparing to normal work it would be 2-3x
@wdrzal: I don't have a datasheet of the condenser, only written 1,1kw on the invoice. I'll try to get some more information. Will check subcooling next time, do you really mean low side pressure because it must be high side pressure and condenser out temp? Typo?
`
@Unknown_road: Yes I use TS2 with 01 orifice in first stage. I let out some gas, now it doesn't flood the compressor. High side pressure is lower now, at about 16bar, what seems fine to me. So the first stage is running good.
I use 00 orifice in second stage, this should give me 1400 watts capacity with R23 condensing at -20°C and evaporating at -60°C (written in Danfoss catalog).
@berkut: Yes -120° is with R14. I will change the captube for a CPEV, I don't feel comfortable with the captube in 3rd stage. As said all stages except first stage have an expansion tank connected with about 1m 0,9mm captube to the suction lines.
Static charge in 2nd stage with R23 is 10bar, I want to keep the pressure low, so that I can get down to -75° loaded. When I add more R23 so that the HX-out doesn't warm up that much when the 3rd stage starts I only get down to -65° loaded.
ya high side pressure,for sub-cooling, I was up all night , sorry
I like as this surrendering the impressive one:), I want to see a final result to see the maximum thing to what this cascade can arrive :D
Greetings luf1c3r
:O someone make cold_ice a -100C clubmember
AMAZING! looks awesome!
Agreed....IIRC, he should have made the club a LONG time ago with another cascade of his :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Waus-mod
better wait till he hits -150 :)
what is holding you back to update?
I'll hope its time, and not more trouble
I'm working to get this unit done. Installed a solenoid valve in the third stage. Replacing the condenser in the first stage with a Luve STVF-193 when I have time.
Any UP Cold Ice?
I'm curious to see this beast in action!:woot:
I'm working on it. I hope to get a TEV for R14, otherwise I will use a CPEV. I have a lot of other units to finish, so my personal unit is not so important right now. Must finish all the other first :(
wouldnt it be easier to just buy a huge tank of liquid nitrogen? Is there a way to use liquid nitrogen then recapture the gas as it heats up recompress the gas back into a liquid and use it again? pressures are too high? How cold is liquid nitrogen? how cold is a 4 stage cascade? Just trying to learn
Thanks
Lee
If we could re-compress LN2, then we could build a LN2 phase change ;) -194C...temps on a 4 stager should be ~-150+C depending on gases/charge.....Quote:
Originally Posted by lross78550
N2 would be horrible to use as you would need a very high gas flow through the N2 stage. Argon is on the edge requirering if i remember correctly 4x more flow than ethylene for example. Methane isnt harder than ethylene on paper. Dunno in real life.
We will see how methane works in some days.
I once calculated that methane needs about twice the volumetric flow compared to that of ethylene to get the same suction pressures.
Any updates?
Not yet, because I have to work on a lot of custom units. These must be finished first.
well hurry the hell up!
lol, easier said then don, you can't just "hurry" it up, well you can but the unit will all ways be mostly crap when rushed past your natural working speed. This is why I refuse rush jobs, and pleased to see that most here do the same, it is the age old argument of quality over quantity.
if he rushes and messes up a braze and explodes= no more cold-ice :(= stricter refridgerant laws= everyone gets pissed when you have to be epa 608 certified to get a propane tank for your grill:mad:. oh, and, no more updates
so please dont hurry too much
Amazing, I have read threw this hole thread just amazing i had bugs flying in my mouth. OutStanding Job can not wait to see this finished.
Talk about an xtreme thread. Excellent content and really looking forward to the outcome. Good luck.
any progress whit the project yet?
it most be mutch better then di anyway :)
He will continue his work at end of july. First, he has to finish few SS.
Well, then I'll be checking back at the end of July! So close, yet so far away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moc
July ended, hope you get around to this soon!
I redid the third stage, using a CPEV instead of captube now. Maybe I will make a testrun tomorrow. I will take pics.
Uh, can't wait to see other pics:toast: :woot:Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_ice
any updates?
I'm realy want to see the unit running at all 4 stage's :D
any updates ?
I changed some parts in the last two stages. Instead of captube I use CPEVs now. And I also redid some pipe work in 4th stage.After I had problems with the R14 in the third stage the unit is running fine now.
1.stage: R507 -20 to -25°
2.stage: R23 -65°
3.stage: R1150 -95
4.stage: R14 -125 (w/o load)
In 4th stage the R14 is running without problems, in third stage the HX always warmed up after some time (I think oil freezed in captube after CPEV), with R1150 I have no problems. In 4th stage I use bigger captube after CPEV, here it works fine.
For a 4 stage cascade with R50 in last stage I think I need stronger compressors to hold about -80° in second stage. But I would be happy for load temps in the -120° area with the R14 in last stage. I will load test tomorrow, and I will finish the missing insulation too.
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/177.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/178.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/179.jpg
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pressures last stage
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/181.jpg
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http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/186.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/random...4stage/187.jpg
like said before, awesome amount of work :toast:
... but have you adjusted the superheat screw on 2nd stage TXV, i really feel it would help temps on 2nd stage. Try closing it half a revolution at each time so you know how many turns you have closed
very nice work
true piece of art :)
nice craftmenship (if i spelled that right :) )
Greetz Gert AkA B0B0
Hmmm suprisingly I was expecting a lot more.
great work ice what cpu will you try it on
The compressors are too small for condensing R14 in third stage and R50 in fourth stage, thats the feeling I have. I did a small load test today, with 200w it did -115°, I will try to get it down to -120° loaded.
-115 loaded is great man