Do you guys think its worth the trouble and money if I return my Apogee to Jab-tech, pay shipping and eat a 15% restock fee and buy the Storm for $70?
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Do you guys think its worth the trouble and money if I return my Apogee to Jab-tech, pay shipping and eat a 15% restock fee and buy the Storm for $70?
depends how much money you have. If you are a starving student, then its not really worth it. If you got the money, i would. Im watchin for a place to put them on sale...Quote:
Originally Posted by demenion
Will be doing a small run of Storm/G7's in early next year. After that it is highly likely that I won't do any more CPU blocks. Too much crap abounding. Talk about a motivational killer.Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan
wow, i'd like one of those :drool:
just ordered a Storm G4 to replace this Apogee. The QC just blew it for me on this block...
Understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Talk about sad, but I will most certainly be saving my pennies to ensure I get a G7.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
I took a look at the mockups for the G7, and you'd better be saving more than pennies. The machining costs are going to be through the roof. Cathar, I just hope you wait another year and a half, so I can get out of law school, get a sweet job, and avoid being killed by my wife for buying one of your works of art!
edit: nevermind, i found what i needed.
Stew, what ever became of your gpu cooling endeavors?
I've long wondered this as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Thanks for the feed-back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Budwise
Please understand that we took steps to correct an issue as soon as we found out that there was one. What is important to understand, is that we do listen and we do care. Can we falter? for sure. But in the end, what counts is the final tally. How many problems were encountered over a period of time? how were they solved? Are our customers happy overall? Our record in terms of QC speaks for itself. People who say "what has Swiftech come to" should not be alarmed. The employees doing the QC are the same today that they were yesterday. People QC'ing the Storm are the same people QC'ing the Apogee: Lynn, Ann, Rym, Laura. They care. I trust them.
hahah, he asked before i got a chance. i was curious about it too. i was really looking forward to finally having a true performance GPU cooler.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Wrong thread in which to continue this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonlightcheese
:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
PM incomming.
dont know, seriously is not funny, one would think that they would use this to their advantage, each product to its own segment, comon sense says you dont want product a to canibalize product b sales. so for reasons not disclosed, the g4 was canceled, and the new block came, its an easy to manuf block(read money) however it sells for less money, so it cost less to make but also sells for a lot less, are they looking for more sales?if so why not keep the two?the kicker however is that the storm is a proven product, by a lot of people, it has a reputation for god sake, again.....why not keep the two? and make huge profits....Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
all i know it is an "old style block" with a new face "delrin top" being sold as good as or better than the g4. i dont think so, we know better:nono:
i am always up for a newer "better" block......this one is for me a step in the wrong direction....:slapass:
this is why wc is a niche, and why it will never become "mainstream"
It will... just not in the way we choose to implement it... but it will...Quote:
and why it will never become "mainstream"
sadly so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
offtopic:
props on the pa series rads, just upgraded my last pc with one, nowi have 2 pa 160 and one 120.3 good stuff....worth the money....in silence......
watercooling is already going mainstream... mac G5 anyone? vidoe cards with watercooling stock (BFG...)? some of it sucks, some of its good (mac G5 gave us the DDC, no?)
I still dont think that Intel will ever include watercooling in there product lineup or specs.
Untill that happens water wont be truly mainstream..
Although it is very commercial (as this thread rightly illustrates) its still a VERY VERY long way from being mainstream.
I don't believe being mainstream has anything to do with what intel does or does not do.
exactly most are using AMD now anyways. the only hold out is DeLLQuote:
Originally Posted by orkan
Holst, at the rate things are going, Intel will have to spec the cpus for watercoling, or invent some sort of crazy air cooling solution the likes of which even thermaltake wouldnt dare go.
I don't see how watercooling will ever become mainstream. The industry seems to be moving towards smaller dies with less wattage. There will just never be a need to get rid of so much heat in mainstream computers.
doubtful at best, with intel's new push on performance per watt.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
watercooling in the mainstream is highly unlikely; aircooling is just so much less hassle and thought.
yet another review to discredit
http://www.ocia.net/reviews/apogee/page5.shtml
http://www.ocia.net/reviews/apogee/Results.jpg
@ gabe
Is warranty void on Apogee if a user removes the top to inspect/clean copper shavings that may be in the block....?
dinos22
well, i swapped my Apogee for a Storm today. The temps arent any different, but the quality of the thing was beautiful. Ill give the AS5 a few days to cook. Regardless im happy to have it before they get even more difficult to find.
Same could be said for cars. The watercooling is a pain in the Allerwertesten and a source of a huge percentage of breakdowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloody_Sorcerer
But it is more effective, cheaper and allows for smaller engine compartments than air cooling.
The question for CPU cooling will be decided not based on what the processors do, but on what people demands for small and quiet and cheap are. If you need to cram a full PC info the space of 3 DVD boxes then fluid cooling might be the only way to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
LOL! I trust that review about as far as I can throw it with my arms tied behind my back. I did enjoy the closeup pics of the Apogee though. Got to be the worst looking block insides ever. Truly surprised it doesn't leak water between base and delrin top...
We can't (shouldn't) overlook the performance numbers, and on IHS-bearing CPUs the Apogee appears to at least approach the Storm. But I still haven't seen the theory behind going back to a diamond-pin block, or how this block is substantially different from the 5000 series. Has anyone tested one of those old buggers against the newer generation on modern CPUs?
that would be an interesting comparison actuallyQuote:
Originally Posted by aMp
I got news for ya, the Maze 3 performs within 1C of the Storm and Apogee with an IHS'd AMD.
Almost every waterblock performs "within 1C", on any IHS capped CPU, AMD or Intel, according to reported-to-mobo temps.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Why buy water-cooling at all? Stick with the Big Typhoons and a single large quiet fan, and be happy?
what about OCs
are you getting the same OCs as well.......with Maze3
if so what is the advantage of having Storm (honestly.....i'm not being a smartass)
personally i'm skipping the whole water thing. It was great and all but I'm now getting a custom phase cooler in a few weeks....so yeah i'll definately get more out of my CPU that way......folding with dual core Opteron past 3GHz :slobber: (fingers crossed now coldbugs)
scott, you refering to Lee's testing, or just jesting?
Why did FrozenCPU advertise the Apogee as being the "Storm Killer" before any tests had been performed? I don't understand why a company would want to "out" one of their Top of the Line products with a cheap budget product...
-k0nsl
Cathar,Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
I sense by your posts that you have become increasingly discouraged as of late.
There is no need. :) Your work has been, and will be greatly appreciated by those of us that can tell the difference between marketing... and fact.
absolutely. And is why i sold the Apogee and am now a proud Storm owner. Even if im limited by my IHS i like the fact that this block cuts no corners and is a solid piece of work.
Seconded. Those have always been the only people to buy your blocks anyhow. Well, atleast before the Swiftech Storm that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan
Hey Gabe.
How about an honest upfront answer regarding the thin structure of the wall right at the counter sunk point on the Apogee. You keep professing that "the truth will become known" so how about some truth regarding this. Fact is it's bloody thin and looks like it has piss weak integrity at that stress point. Yeah we have heard how you bashed it with a hammer in your tests, but so what. It would need a redesign before I and many others would have faith in it's structual strength .
I admit I like the idea of it's high flow dynamics in a loop with added gpu blocks but as it stands atm I wouldn't want it hovering over 2 of my 512mb cards.
Front up, are you going to rectify the design flaw or just use pr bs as the scape goat and hope for the best.......but remember "the truth will become know" and in it's current manifistation most "in the know" people are all seeing an obvious design flaw.
It's your company and your reputation on the line, just depends on how much emphasis you place in these areas. :rolleyes:
Nah, it's more of a pointed cynical remark on the path along which CPU manufacturer's are leading us all down. All this is being driven from the pointy end of the supply chain. Some embrace it out of necessity. Some lament it. As an enthusiast, I lament the existence of the heat condom. Will be a sad day for overclocking enthusiasts indeed when all CPU's come with IHS's that cannot be removed, and we're all left at the mercy of IHS variations. It will make finding a good CPU that much harder. No longer will just having good silicon be enough to identify a good clocking CPU, it'll have to have a perfectly mated flat IHS as well.... :wth:Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan
I'm guessing that they know they'll no longer be able to get the Storm. The few they have left willl be snatched up by people who have their IHS removed. So they just hype up the product that will be around for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by k0nsl
I got the Apogee for $40 free shipping and plan to try it out on a quiet gaming rig. Looks as though I should get decent bang/buck on it.
When you compare Storm and Apogee, you should do it with different pump performance. Since the Storm block is designed to resist the flow more, but to turn sufficieint pressure into better performance you can just pick one pump setting.
exactly. as cathar said above, one day all CPUs will have "heat condoms" (nice metaphor haha) soldered onto the die. the IHS will soon be an irremovable piece. sure you can always lap the IHS but there's only so much that lapping can do. testing the Apogee vs Storm on an IHS capped CPU is very relevant considering what we face in the near future.Quote:
Originally Posted by aMp
but if you look at that data (as much as you can trust it...) the Storm and Apogee are very close, which coincides with data from Lee's testing. considering the fact that the Apogee spreads pressure quite evenly and the Storm applies pressure in a concentrated area on the die, this makes the Storm look really good. Even when capped with an IHS the Storm is still neck and neck with the Apogee, IHS included. in Lee's testing the Storm performed better than the Apogee by a noticeable but small margin. you can't deny that the Storm is the better performer with or without IHS.
i've always respected Cathar's designs and it's doubtless that the Storm will outperform the competition for the foreseeable future.
The apogee and storm are NOT very close. Not in terms of waterblock performance.
The only reason that testing is showing them close is because of the IHS numbing effect. A Spiral and a Storm are "close" in that regard.
Let us not confuse temps on IHS cpu's as a measurement of WB performance.
Is it really worth looking at mobo reported temps at all? We can all tell they are pretty much worthless by looking at the die sim tests as those are direct measurement of temperature from within the heat source which shows the storm and basically any other modern block whomping the apogee. I think everyone should just yell at swiftech to bring the storm back.
you've missed my point entirely. you are saying that IHS capped CPU performance is invalid because of the numbing affect. what i am saying is that the IHS numbing will be inavoidable in the near future because Intel and (possibly) AMD will be making it impossible to remove the IHS without damaging the core. IHS performance is VERY valid considering what is to come in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan
i know it sucks but there's nothing you can do.
I understand your point just fine.
I don't believe you are seeing mine. When you are talking about 1-2c or less in difference between the BEST wb, and an OLD wb like a maze3... it truely does not MATTER. Period. The IHS completely and totally levels the playing field for all waterblocks created in the last 3 years. So, IHS performance DOES NOT MATTER. As you will unlikely be able to see any benefit of going with one vs. another from an overclocking standpoint.
Block selection becomes completely based upon looks/functionality. Performance truely does not matter.
These posts really make me understand what Cathar has been talking about for the last 6 months or so.
So, cpu manufacturers are all going with soldered IHS, or some un-modifiable version thereof. We knew this was probably un-avoidable. At that point, enhancements in WB design will be shoved aside for what can be marketed and sold for a profit.
Enter Apogee.
But doesn't that just show that measuring the temp with an inaccurate CPU temp-sensor is worthless? I think the WB design make a substantial difference if one were to measure the water temperature or even examine maximum overclocks of the CPU.
I have a solution.. a belt sander...
just belt sand the IHS off when the glue it on.. sand that indium right off that bad boy.. go up to 600 grit when u hit the indium. 1000 when u get a bit closer that it might nick the core, and then finish off the core with a nice 2000grit lap job, and possibly the slurry polishing on glass.
My "worthless" motherboard sensor sure as hell showed much better temps when I removed my IHS when comparing apogee vs. storm.
that doesnt mean its not worthless..
being a regular at procooling you should know that it IS indeed worthless.
Doesn't mean it can't give you a reasonable estimate.
Law of greater numbers holds true... even when dealing with junk on-board sensors.
... oh, and for your "pro-cooling" statement... pretty odd to see a mod of one forum pimping another. There is a reason I post here more than there.
He was hardly pimping another forums, he was just saying how you were a regular there.
As axion pointed out, i was not "pimping" other forums, merely pointing out that you go to procooling and if you would have ever stated that you used onboard sensors for some kind of testing they would have ripped you a knew one and possibly banned you if you tried to defend ur onboard sensors.
Reasonable is a relative term and its on a case per case basis. Its a bit of luck if your board has a better calibrated sensor than someone elses, and IF your board is reporting more realistic temps and responding to changes in a realistic fashion, well you just got lucky. But determining if you got lucky is pretty damn hard as you need a basis for comparison.Quote:
Doesn't mean it can't give you a reasonable estimate.
Also some people think that the sensors are just off by a set amount, say 5c. While the sensor may be off by 5C at ur current temp, change your cooler and the delta will change. This is called non-linearity. A good, quantifiable example, is the voltages smartgaurdian outputs. on my cpu it was reading .07 volts low at a certain voltage and when i adjust the voltage by about 0.1V, the change from actual voltage was .09... Pretty horrific if u ask me. I tried this again and found the range of it being off to be somewhere between .06-.09.
Understood.
And we are not in disagreement about the validity of most on-board sensors. I have had boards in the past that were utterly worthless in that regard. However, to just put a blanket statement saying that ALL on-board sensors are "worthless" is pretty strong.
This board, (sli-dr) as well as several of my past boards, show realistic and quite repeatable results. Are they accurate compared to a fluke tester? no. Are they accurate compared to any other boards? probably not. But they are accurate enough to judge on my OWN system, differences in cooling ability after changes in the loop have been made.
Same can be said about canned benchmarks. Realistic - only when comparing modifications to your own system... but not when comparing system to system.
>> appologies for over-reacting in regard to the pro-cooling statement. I post here, and not much there because I appreciate forums without the senseless arguments. ... and here, mods actually expect people to post on topic.
bla bla bla, any test with storm and ihs off?
yeap.......to much bullshyte in this thread and absolutely no numbers :fact: .......funny thing is everyone's already made their mind up. This is hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by 187(V)URD@
I've been following this thread since it started and I have never trusted the temp sensors either and now I can see why, great info.
But how then is anyone to get any type of acurate readings?
I posted my results a while ago, not that they can be used for any useful comparision... but I'll put them up again here:
Loop:
dual bayres > D5 > D5 > Storm > Maze 4 > EK NF4 > PA120.3
Pump #1: setting 5
Pump #2: setting 5
CPU Idle: 26c
CPU Load: 38c
Ambient: 20.4c
CPU = X2 4400 @ 2700mhz - 1.65vcore
As I say, not very useful as I have other blocks in the loop, and such.
are you not the guy who got apogee and storm? Maybe you can test with ihs off? (maybe with a cheap a64 3000+ seriously oc'ed +~ 1.65V)Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan
to get good readings from a live cpu?
there is a way.. attach your own sensing equipment to the cpu diode, calibrate and make a correction graph for the non-linearity of the cpu's diode.
I tried this with some succes (although the diode on my cpu magically died during calibration) and pH over at procooling has done this with a AXP cpu and has done the same with an A64. he is still finalizing his testing strategy for A64, hence the lack of data from procooling.
Orkan can you check your actual cpu voltage for me. here is a pic of where to measure with ur DMM.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9899/vcorepoint3nw.png
1.67vQuote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
... and THANKS!!!... I always wanted to know where to do that on this board! Makes me happy that everest and CPU-Z are only reporting .02v off.
Yes thats me... and I am planning to do so in the near future. I have a Dtek WW that I want to compare to the storm also.Quote:
are you not the guy who got apogee and storm? Maybe you can test with ihs off? (maybe with a cheap a64 3000+ seriously oc'ed +~ 1.65V)
hmmm so how can you draw conclusions from this data........what does it tell you exactly that makes your case for Apogee=suxQuote:
Originally Posted by orkan
i would really like to see Cathar test these.......i know people can trust his findings....maybe you should test them cathar since you say it's one sided at the moment
also guys the "condom" idea is unfortunate i know but that's what majority of CPUs are like now (few IHS-less but people mainly keep IHS on as far as i've seen)......so it is important to have both with IHS and without in testing IMO
as eva2000 says a few posts ago..............push the CPU to the limit on each block..........whatever max MHz you get at whatever vcore and other settings..........and see which comes out on top......that's what separates boys from men in WBs :cool:
orkan your lucky its so close. as i mentioned before mine is off by .06-.09.. pretty bad if u ask me.
Dino... obviously you dont read well. Let me outline a couple things for you from my post:
and...Quote:
not that they can be used for any useful comparision
I'm not here to make any case. I have tested both blocks on my own... and the OBVIOUS victor is in my system right now. Beyond that, I could really care less about the useless banter that has become of the apogee vs everything threads.Quote:
As I say, not very useful as I have other blocks in the loop, and such.
http://www.systemcooling.com/swiftech_apogee-11.html (test with DIE)
so why post it if it's uselessQuote:
Originally Posted by orkan
Measure the temp of the water, the ambient air, and air exhaust of the radiator. That will give overall view of how well the system is cooling. As for measuring the temp of the cpu, there's some modifications [of which Maxxx mentioned] out there where you attach an external probe to a couple of pins on the CPU, calibrate, and then record the readings over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagleclaw
If anyone is really interested in getting the real cpu temps I have the hardware to do so that I no longer need.
PM me for more info if interested.
apogee vs storm.
http://www.ocia.net/reviews/apogee/page2.shtml
safan, thats been posted 10x over and that article cannot be callled a review.. its a joke.
I didn't know it had been posted.. my bad it does seem like a joke with all the temps being equal and the testing method. oh did I forget it was sponsored by swiftech. I figured it would give someone a laugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
lol.. pretty funny...
when u origionally posted it, i thought u were citing it as valid data... :lol: good to know u werent.
the overclocking intelligence agency?
more like anti-intellegence
Yeah that was clearly either the most uninformed reviewer or Swifty paid for that one. Come on now...
-Brandon...
___________
It's Christmas time, so Ho Ho F*cking Ho!
Just ordered my Storm - YEE HAW
^^ Random post of the day.
cmanser FTW!
One of those things that just has to be done.
So what acronym are you using for FTW... I just read the book "My War" and thought it was great!
Jan 1. 2006 - CMFTW
FTW= for the win.