Japan quakes

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03-13-2011, 04:35 PM
saaya

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Maño

Well, if the loops can't be completed then I guess that the vapor simply goes away...

well... nothing simply goes away... :P
itll enter the atmosphere and spread... and im not sure what amounts of steam we are talking here but its not just a little... and if the core has been breached then its not just lightly radiactive either... and even IF the core hasnt been breached, higher pressure and temps and saltwater and sooner or later it may just happen...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadDias

the seawater containing bor acid (which is only used when u actually want to stop a meltdown) will evapor into the air. there is no way to fill it into a closed cooling cycle, also there should be no reason to do so, if the cooling cycle is still closed. so we have to expect the core to be open.
i don´t think that media is overhyping this at all. think of tschernobyl 25yrs ago. michail gorbatschow was informed of the meltdown by sweden, not his own people.

yes thats what i expected as well...
but the jap gov is feeding cnn and other news channels bs news...
today they are now starting to report that it was hydrogen, yesterday at least some tv stations still reported the official story of this being a pressure explosion and only some limited amount of slightly radioactive steam leaked...

i think the jap gov is not telling us the truth... they know... they wont say anything cause they fear that it causes a mass hysteria and an exodus from nearby tokyo, which would make all matter even WORSE...

Quote:

Originally Posted by FischOderAal

The heat of the nuclear reaction caused the creation of hydrogen und that's what exploded. Knallgas, kennste doch noch aus der Schule :p

yeah sure... just not sure cause over here in the media they quoted jap gov officials as saying it was a caused by the high pressure only

besides, if i understood it correctly if the core has been breached, it is designed so cooling water is kept within the structure right?
well according to some reports that is the case with 2(!) reactors in fukushima right now, and both structures are flooded with sea water to the top...
03-13-2011, 05:02 PM
Jonny5isalivetm

Best wishes to all Japanese at this time, such a terrible loss :<

From all in Ireland and beyond
03-13-2011, 05:27 PM
RPGWiZaRD

Here's another very detailed and great article about what's has been going on at the nuclear plant written by some1 that really knows this stuff http://theenergycollective.com/barry...te-explanation - great read as it also educates you at the same time.

Also here's another quite good shorter one http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/arc...ushima-reactor

for those interested.
03-13-2011, 05:48 PM
miahallen

I'm involved with some of the local missionaries and the "CRASH" organization, and I'm planning to volunteer, and travel to the disaster areas within the next few months. If you'd like to support us, your help would be appreciated :)
03-13-2011, 05:49 PM
IvanAndreevich

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD

Here's another very detailed and great article about what's has been going on at the nuclear plant written by some1 that really knows this stuff http://theenergycollective.com/barry...te-explanation - great read as it also educates you at the same time.

Also here's another quite good shorter one http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/arc...ushima-reactor

for those interested.

Great read, thanks a lot
03-13-2011, 05:52 PM
dctokyo

Quote:

Originally Posted by saaya

but the jap gov

...

Today it is generally regarded as an ethnic slur :shakes:
03-13-2011, 06:28 PM
Caparroz

CNN and BBC are reporting and BROADCASTING live a seconde Tsunami after a major aftershock.

Besides that, a second explosion at Fukushima...

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek:

Stay strong, Japan... :(
03-13-2011, 06:30 PM
BeepBeep2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caparroz

CNN and BBC are reporting and BROADCASTING live a seconde Tsunami after a major aftershock.

Besides that, a second explosion at Fukushima...

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek:

Stay strong, Japan... :(

Oh. My. God.
03-13-2011, 06:32 PM
Caparroz

They are estimating that it'll hit the japanese NE coast in about 10 to 20 min. but it's much smaller than the big one. There's a big confusion right now...

Edit: the explosion happened at reactor #3.

Edit 2: they are expcting a 3 meters high Tsunami.
03-13-2011, 06:35 PM
dctokyo

5 meter Tsunami reported headed our way again:(
also I justed watched on TV live, a BIG explosion at the #3 reactor............. this is getting worst here
03-13-2011, 06:36 PM
Hondacity

wtf thats so high...

i hope coastline people are evacuated..
03-13-2011, 06:37 PM
Kal-EL

Quote:

Originally Posted by dctokyo

5 meter Tsunami reported headed our way again:(

WTF!?! :mad:
03-13-2011, 06:38 PM
dctokyo

LIVE FEED

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv
03-13-2011, 06:40 PM
Caparroz

The #3 reactor event was a hydrogen explosion and there's smoke rising from reactor #1. They're reporting radioactive Cesium leakage.
03-13-2011, 07:01 PM
InCredible

nvm not going that route.
Glad the tsunami was a false alarm :)
03-13-2011, 07:03 PM
dctokyo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondacity

wtf thats so high...

i hope coastline people are evacuated..

fortunately the tsunami report was false alarm :)
03-13-2011, 07:09 PM
Hondacity

lol you alarmed me and kal badly lol
03-13-2011, 07:14 PM
BeepBeep2

NHK World:
20 microsieverts coming out of the plant per hour, which is roughly 1/50th a yearly "normal" dose of radiation for workers over a yearly period.
03-13-2011, 07:16 PM
dctokyo

Tokyo Electric Power Co on Monday morning postponed the start of an unprecedented rationing of power thanks to the prospect of smaller-than-expected demand at this time.

"TEPCO and government officials said that the region-specific outages would affect a broad range of things used in everyday life such as traffic signals, medical institutions and train operations, and possibly result in water supply disruptions."
03-13-2011, 07:49 PM
onethreehill

US Deploys Nuclear Experts to Japan
(Japanese engineers continue work to avoid meltdown at two nuclear power stations)
http://news.discovery.com/earth/japa...on-110312.html
03-13-2011, 08:59 PM
dctokyo

In Harms way

The aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan, which is sailing in the Pacific, passed through a radioactive cloud from stricken nuclear reactors in Japan, causing crew members on deck to receive a month’s worth of radiation in about an hour.
The officials added that American helicopters flying missions about 60 miles north of the damaged reactors became coated with particulate radiation that had to be washed off.
03-13-2011, 09:15 PM
saaya

Quote:

Originally Posted by dctokyo

In Harms way

The aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan, which is sailing in the Pacific, passed through a radioactive cloud from stricken nuclear reactors in Japan, causing crew members on deck to receive a month’s worth of radiation in about an hour.
The officials added that American helicopters flying missions about 60 miles north of the damaged reactors became coated with particulate radiation that had to be washed off.

for this they usually use the max safe radiation values.
so then thats 700x above considered safe and way higher than that compared to normal radiation levels...

they always make it sound like a sunburn or, oh well, after this exposure you just gotta lay low and avoid radiation for some time and then your back in balance, lol... thats not how it works... you can get exposed to a LOT of radiation throughout your life, but if you get exposed to all of this at once youd die in an instant...

so i really hate those "as much radiation as usually within x timeframe" numbers, thats pure nonsense trying to make it sound less serious...

id radiation levels were THIS high far out on the pacific ocean, then damn!
20km evacuation radius sounds ridiculous... the wins just have to change slightly and things get real ugly... :S

Quote:

Originally Posted by dctokyo

Today it is generally regarded as an ethnic slur :shakes:

huh? what? jap? really?
sorry...
was just using it as an abreviation just like gov for government...
dont have a problem with japan or japanese at all :)

http://news.discovery.com/earth/japa...on-110312.html
see, and again they claim it was nothing severe, the explosion was just hydrogen that had built up... then what was all that dark smoke?
and how come radiactive ceasium and idonine have been detected around the plant?
and why do they add this element to the water to stop or slow the fission?
what point would this have if the core wasnt breached and the coolant loop was sealed and had no direct contact to the core whatsoever?
03-13-2011, 09:16 PM
[XC] gomeler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caparroz

The #3 reactor event was a hydrogen explosion and there's smoke rising from reactor #1. They're reporting radioactive Cesium leakage.

Crap.
03-13-2011, 09:42 PM
saaya

http://www.thehindu.com/news/interna...cle1536461.ece
sounds like its the operator and not the japanese gov that is bs'ing everybody...

theyve been saying all along all is fine, then one reactor exploded... but all was fine, radiation levels "supposedly" went down... then another reactor exploded... but yeah, all is fine! :stick:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2...or-monday.html
and instead of saying 7 were killed in the second explosion, they say they are "missing"
yeah right... as if there is any chance theyll show up...

big respect to those workers at the power plants...
they know what they are dealing with and they know they will at least face severe health issues if they ever make it out of those reactors alive...
yet they pretty much sacrifice their lives for the greater good... :(
03-13-2011, 09:55 PM
Hondacity

here's the explosion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_N-w...layer_embedded
03-13-2011, 10:18 PM
Boissez

Quote:

Originally Posted by saaya

for this they usually use the max safe radiation values.
so then thats 700x above considered safe and way higher than that compared to normal radiation levels...

they always make it sound like a sunburn or, oh well, after this exposure you just gotta lay low and avoid radiation for some time and then your back in balance, lol... thats not how it works... you can get exposed to a LOT of radiation throughout your life, but if you get exposed to all of this at once youd die in an instant...

so i really hate those "as much radiation as usually within x timeframe" numbers, thats pure nonsense trying to make it sound less serious...

id radiation levels were THIS high far out on the pacific ocean, then damn!
20km evacuation radius sounds ridiculous... the wins just have to change slightly and things get real ugly... :S

Ever taken a radiography? You may be exposed to months worth of background radiation in just a couple of seconds. Yet even doctors prescribe it ;)
The current events in the two nuclear plants shouldn't be overdramatized - this ain't no where near a chernobyl type release (more like 10000-times smaller) where workers got lethal doses of radiation within minutes of exposure.
Especially when you have thousands and thousands of people nearby without food, water and shelter.
03-13-2011, 10:37 PM
NEOAethyr

Jeez...
I'de volunteer for help if it were possible, not sure.
But after so much probs with the nukes, no way in heck are you gonna see me step ft over there for sometime sorry :(.

Already had enough xray rad's pass through me working on lots of tv's and visiting the dentist's...

For alternative energies...
There's alot of methane gas ice sheets around japan supposedly, so it seems from looking on the maps.
Good for natural gas.

There's wood gas burning,. made up by the nazi's...
Africa is doing it... (probably with trees)
So is China (with left over rice husks).
A good method for doing that is to grow hemp or weed and grind the stalks into wood pellets (the bud and leaves are probably better fuel's but... lol).
That's the "supposedly" reason it was illegalized in the 1st place...

Wind mills...
Solar parabolic dish turbines...

The Japanese like doing research, so there's possibly even more alternatives when you look at lighting ball generation (micro black holes).
Vortex's, using the extreme heat side to turn a turbine, and the cold side to cool parts of the reactor...

Methane gas from garbage dumps...
(Wish we did that around here...)

Algae.., making diesel out of that like you would out of wood gas kinda.
It's another alt fuel src.

Geothermal...

Etc etc.
Unlike 50 or so years ago, alot of these are possible today with the tech we have...

Anyways after the last few days of crazy event's they'll probably look into alternatives anyways after everything is back to norm.

As for the word jap.
I was told 10 years ago they take that as offensive.
To many american's calling them japs through history since ww2 I guess.

To be onest, I wonder where the word japan even came from ^^.
Because that's not what they call there own country...

I wish you guys the best of luck ;).
You guys already have had enough probs, let alone having to deal with all this crap all at once :(.

To be honest, perhaps it's time to turn those nuke reactors off ^^, it's not my say or anything but if it were, I would ^^.

If I were the praying type, I'de pray for ya.
Nothing I can say is really of any help but...
I guess I'de still hop over there and help clean up and such if I knew of a way :|.
:O, it's sad to see such things happen to such a great people's.
03-13-2011, 10:43 PM
josh1980

Quote:

Originally Posted by saaya

http://www.thehindu.com/news/interna...cle1536461.ece
sounds like its the operator and not the japanese gov that is bs'ing everybody...

theyve been saying all along all is fine, then one reactor exploded... but all was fine, radiation levels "supposedly" went down... then another reactor exploded... but yeah, all is fine! :stick:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2...or-monday.html
and instead of saying 7 were killed in the second explosion, they say they are "missing"
yeah right... as if there is any chance theyll show up...

big respect to those workers at the power plants...
they know what they are dealing with and they know they will at least face severe health issues if they ever make it out of those reactors alive...
yet they pretty much sacrifice their lives for the greater good... :(

No reactor has exploded. As has been mentioned on multiple links on this forum, the reactor is not capable of exploding.

Are you done with the sensationalizing? Please don't try to tell people how stuff is if you don't thoroughly understand it. It just confuses people. First they read about the hydrogen explosion and that a nuclear reactor can't explode, then your comments, what are they supposed to believe?

Do you really think that the spokesperson for the operating company knows alot about what he/she is talking about? There's complete confusion down there i'm sure. People all over the place trying to keep water flowing and electricity on, etc. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that they're making mistakes while their families might be missing, their homes gone, etc. Why do you think the US is sending assistance over there? Because we can observer and provide some insight and help. The people we send have homes to go to, families that are back safe and sound.

I get the distinct impression you believe some kind of conspiracy is underway. You want in on a little secret? When all of this is said and done there will be tons of data on what transpired and when. There is tons of computer data that will be analysed thoroughly to piece together exactly what happened. What worked and what didn't work. Everyone around the world will know if the data was tampered with because the data won't make sense. There will be so much data on everything that's been going on there's no way someone could alter enough data to hide the tampering. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that somepeople will think the operators were lying, the japanese government was in on it, and that tons more radioactive material was released than claimed. But do this forum a big favor and don't add your BS to a topic you don't understand.
03-13-2011, 10:49 PM
NEOAethyr

Now now, he's just concerned ;).
That's probably the reason right there.

I am's too ^^.
With a supposed decline in birth rate tis is like the worst ting that could happen to 'em.
03-13-2011, 11:01 PM
Hondacity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boissez

Ever taken a radiography? You may be exposed to months worth of background radiation in just a couple of seconds. Yet even doctors prescribe it ;)
The current events in the two nuclear plants shouldn't be overdramatized - this ain't no where near a chernobyl type release (more like 10000-times smaller) where workers got lethal doses of radiation within minutes of exposure.
Especially when you have thousands and thousands of people nearby without food, water and shelter.

radiation therapy is not for healthy people

doctors don't prescribe them... they other known as radiologists require xray or ct or even PET for diagnostic purposes not for curing.

i carry an insta-dose dosimeter. xrays aren't that bad, if you follow "ALARA"

background radiation is always at minimum in hospitals... xray sources or radio-isotopes are always in shielded rooms.

but cesium sources produce beta radiation...

imagine being exposed to cesium...a dust cloud of radioactive cesium...

instant cell death

half life of cesium is 30yrs...it will be 1 generation before they disappear..and hopefully the babies are normal...

just bits off of my head
03-13-2011, 11:09 PM
miahallen

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOAethyr

To be honest, perhaps it's time to turn those nuke reactors off ^^, it's not my say or anything but if it were, I would ^^.

The reactors were shut down automatically when the earthquake first struck ;)
03-13-2011, 11:17 PM
josh1980

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondacity

but cesium sources produce beta radiation...

imagine being exposed to cesium...a dust cloud of radioactive cesium...

instant cell death

half life of cesium is 30yrs...it will be 1 generation before they disappear..and hopefully the babies are normal...

First off, it isn't instant cell death. Secondly, cell death is just one of 5 possible outcomes when a cell is ionized by radiation. Cell death is a preferred outcome actually. The least preferred outcome is DNA errors and cell division in which daughter cells live(aka cancer).

The half life of Caesium-137 is 30.17 years. It is a beta emitter. Betas are blocked by a few millimeters of relatively simple materials like aluminum.

I'm guessing I should give up trying to correct people in the forum. I can't tell if they aren't competent to discuss the subject, misinformed, or just confused. Hondacity, you just seem a little confused. But it seems that others have the sole intent to confuse and deceive.
03-13-2011, 11:27 PM
Hondacity

cesium is both gamma and beta...
03-13-2011, 11:38 PM
dctokyo

Hi josh1980

Radiation detected 60 miles from the plant contains Cesium-137 and Iodine-121, being a noob on this, can you kindly explain in layman terms? Is this something to worry about, as I live about 206 kilometres (128 miles) from that plant.
03-13-2011, 11:49 PM
Caparroz

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh1980

First off, it isn't instant cell death. Secondly, cell death is just one of 5 possible outcomes when a cell is ionized by radiation. Cell death is a preferred outcome actually. The least preferred outcome is DNA errors and cell division in which daughter cells live(aka cancer).

The half life of Caesium-137 is 30.17 years. It is a beta emitter. Betas are blocked by a few millimeters of relatively simple materials like aluminum.

I'm guessing I should give up trying to correct people in the forum. I can't tell if they aren't competent to discuss the subject, misinformed, or just confused. Hondacity, you just seem a little confused. But it seems that others have the sole intent to confuse and deceive.

Your posts were very informative and I thank you for that. :up:

For us folks that don't know jack how that stuff works hearing from a person who actually works on a nuclear power plant and might know exactly what's going on at Fukushima is very refreshing.

Please carry on. :yepp:
03-13-2011, 11:55 PM
mongoled

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh1980

First off, it isn't instant cell death. Secondly, cell death is just one of 5 possible outcomes when a cell is ionized by radiation. Cell death is a preferred outcome actually. The least preferred outcome is DNA errors and cell division in which daughter cells live(aka cancer).

The half life of Caesium-137 is 30.17 years. It is a beta emitter. Betas are blocked by a few millimeters of relatively simple materials like aluminum.

I'm guessing I should give up trying to correct people in the forum. I can't tell if they aren't competent to discuss the subject, misinformed, or just confused. Hondacity, you just seem a little confused. But it seems that others have the sole intent to confuse and deceive.

Hi Josh, thanks for your professional insight.

It is very helpful at this time in keeping things in perspective.

Its needed as some people are just naturally pessimistic, conspirasists, over exagerators and dramatised histerics.

Wish they wouldnt comment on things in such an authorative manner, when the reality of it is that they dont have a clue.

Not really helping and IMHO is lacking respect to all those people who are suffering right now.

I hope those peeps who are doing this in this thread would please step back and stop doing this stuff as it is unhelpful.

Thanks to all those bringing truthful information into this thread.

To all those suffering, my heart goes out to you.............
03-14-2011, 12:10 AM
josh1980

Quote:

Originally Posted by dctokyo

Hi josh1980

Radiation detected 60 miles from the plant contains Cesium-137 and Iodine-121, being a noob on this, can you kindly explain in layman terms? Is this something to worry about, as I live about 206 kilometres (128 miles) from that plant.

First, you have a typo. Iodine 131 is a concern from nuclear reactors.

Iodine contamination can lead to thyroid cancer if ingested. If you are likely to be exposed to it, your government will likely issue iodide pills. The pills will saturate your thyroid with iodine. Any additional iodine you might be exposed to(radioactive type) will not be able to be processed by your body and will be expelled through natural means. Radioactive Iodine 131 has a 1/2 life of about 8 days. So within a month or so Iodine will no longer be a significant concern.

Caesium 137 is the nasty stuff that is around chernobyl. Lucky for you the wind blows predominantly to the east. This would blow the majority of any contaminants in the air out into the open ocean. This will disperse the radioisotopes and will lower the contamination in the area. It sticks around for a while (30 years) so it can do some long term damage. It also is soluble in water, so it can potentially affect the water table. When Chernobyl happened it was expected that the water table would be contaminated. Instead the caesium collected in the soil and will have decayed away before reaching the water table.

Big picture, anything more than about 10 miles away is pretty safe as long as the winds aren't blowing it towards you. The direction of the winds and rain in the area will play a big part in where the contamination will go. I'm not an expert at contaminations and releases though. It's generally considered bad to have fuel leaking into the environment. So our training doesn't discuss the full lifespan of the isotopes released from a leaking reactor.

Edit: I had read somewhere that the highest radiation levels seen from the accident was about 150mrem/hr. The levels have dropped to around 2 to 3 now. It takes between 200 and 1000rem to start having fatal levels. But if you could have stayed in the highest radiation levels seen thus far AND the radiation levels didn't drop(which are pretty much guaranteed to drop anyway) until a conservatively fatal level of 200rem was reached, you'd have to stay in that area 24 hours a day for 54 days. All this hoopla about "high" levels is overrated. I've been looking at the radiation levels(the numbers, not this BS "1000x background) to figure out how "bad" it is. We've got a ways to go to see "real bad".
03-14-2011, 12:15 AM
NEOAethyr

Isn't there a good supply of iodine from ocean catch seafood and some salts though anyways?
Unless it's already contaminated.

It might not be enough but still.

edit:
Never heard of pills but I have heard of drops...
You can get drops from local farm supply stores I heard.
You're only supposed to use one drop.
But I am definitely no pro.
I would "assume" the gov is working on distribution of it for the country.

Iodine is the only thing I've ever heard of to use in case of a meltdown since it supposedly absorbs some of the radioactivity and passes it through your system.

I would check with a docter and ask for pro advice...
03-14-2011, 12:32 AM
n00b 0f l337

I'm just really glad I cancelled my trip to Tokyo for Spring Break. Would have been there last week till next week. O.o
03-14-2011, 12:35 AM
MrToad

@josh1980:

Thank you again for your continued input. The media keep inviting "experts" to discuss the issues who pass educated guesses or plain misinformation as "facts".

This is really not helping.

We keep getting information of "high radiation levels" as you mention with no background of what do they mean with "high" (or in other words, "high" compared to what) and throwing figures in units of measure we're not familiar with.

In fact I have the feeling some media are deliberately using units of measure that makes the figures "bigger" (like if I were to give pressure readings in PSI rather than BAR and then make it look something that is not because big numbers sell...) or trying to pass units of measure that are relative to time (like km/h) without the "time" value.
03-14-2011, 12:55 AM
vodka3dg

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD

Here's another very detailed and great article about what's has been going on at the nuclear plant written by some1 that really knows this stuff http://theenergycollective.com/barry...te-explanation - great read as it also educates you at the same time.

Also here's another quite good shorter one http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/arc...ushima-reactor

for those interested.

hope more ppl would read this. VERY interesting and educative read indeed.

thanks for posting.

edit: just read josh1980's inputs... thanks, everything makes a lot of sense now.
03-14-2011, 01:45 AM
dctokyo

Many thanks again josh1980

Quote:

First, you have a typo. Iodine 131

Thanks for correction, the news paper here printed Iodine 121, so I just repeated it here :(

also this is what the paper is reporting

Quote:

On Monday, radiation at the plant’s premises rose over the benchmark limit of 500 micro sievert per hour at two locations, measuring 751 micro sievert at the first location at 2:20 a.m. and 650 at the second at 2:40 a.m., according to the report.

The hourly amounts are more than half the 1,000 micro sievert level to which people are usually exposed in one year.

The maximum level detected so far around the plant is 1,557.5 micro sievert logged Sunday.
03-14-2011, 01:46 AM
Kallenator

Short and informative josh1980, thanks =)

Not to familiar with mrem/hr, more familiar with the concepts Becquerel and "counts per second" from physics classes.
Decent read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Röntgen_equivalent_man <-mrem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becquerel
03-14-2011, 01:52 AM
Boissez

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOAethyr

Isn't there a good supply of iodine from ocean catch seafood and some salts though anyways?
Unless it's already contaminated.

It might not be enough but still.

edit:
Never heard of pills but I have heard of drops...
You can get drops from local farm supply stores I heard.
You're only supposed to use one drop.
But I am definitely no pro.
I would "assume" the gov is working on distribution of it for the country.

Iodine is the only thing I've ever heard of to use in case of a meltdown since it supposedly absorbs some of the radioactivity and passes it through your system.

I would check with a docter and ask for pro advice...

Stop. It's a very minor leak on the other side of the globe and nothing for you to worry about. FWIW the radiation residue from the nuclear testing of the 50'ies and 60'ies contributes way way way more to the background radiation where you live.
03-14-2011, 01:56 AM
NEOAethyr

Oh oops...
Iodine and iodide, so close in spelling...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine

Quote:

Radioactive iodine is a potential component of nuclear fallout, and a dangerous one due to the thyroid gland's propensity to concentrate iodine from the bloodstream. For this reason if people are expected to be exposed to a large dose of radioactive iodine, they may be instructed to take non-radioactive potassium iodide tablets. The typical adult dose is one 130 mg tablet per 24 hours. By ingesting a large amount of non-radioactive iodine, the proportion of radioactive iodine taken into the thyroid gland may be minimized. This is one way to try to mitigate the health impact of exposure to fallout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_iodide

Quote:

The major uses of KI include use as a nutritional supplement in animal feeds and also the human diet. For the latter, it is the most common additive used to "iodize" table salt (a public health measure to prevent iodine deficiency in populations which get little seafood).

You can see why I had the 2 mixed up lol...

Anyways if you're in japan, I would ask a professional about getting some tablets for you and your fam.
You probably wanna use the very min dose.
Just as a precaution.

Or... perhaps using a pinch of salt on your food once a day will doit.
As long as it's the iodized salt type, and not the stuff without it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodised_salt

But then again it might be possible that the supply is already contaminated...
I really don't have a clue...
Getting the stuff directly from tokyo or kyoto (or non-north area's) "might" ensure it's ok...

I'm gonna be picking some new salt up myself...
Noticed before any of this happened that all my salt was the non-iodised type anyways.

I'm not trying to confuse.
Just trying to be helpful.

Edit:
@Boissez
Nah dude no worry, I'm not gonna take any pills or drops :).
I will be getting some salt though, needed it anyways ;).

Supposedly nasa was the main contributer in the respect to radiation.
Some nuke powered sat crashed somewhere in canada along time ago I heard that spread radiation across the globe (not sure if this was true or not though, never looked it up).
My uncle worked on pacific nuke testing and in nevada building nukes, but that has nothing to do with me, I'm not his son or daughter so...
03-14-2011, 02:09 AM
h0bbes

As josh said, cell death is most probably the best outcome after exposure to radiation (assuming that the DNA has been damaged). Damage in the DNA can lead to loss of cell control (cancer) or it could affect the next generation (if the germ cells are affected). Generally speaking, if the DNA of a cell gets damaged beyond repair, apoptosis (controlled cell death) should ideally happen.
03-14-2011, 03:24 AM
MadDias

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh1980

No reactor has exploded. As has been mentioned on multiple links on this forum, the reactor is not capable of exploding.

Are you done with the sensationalizing? Please don't try to tell people how stuff is if you don't thoroughly understand it. It just confuses people. First they read about the hydrogen explosion and that a nuclear reactor can't explode, then your comments, what are they supposed to believe?

Do you really think that the spokesperson for the operating company knows alot about what he/she is talking about? There's complete confusion down there i'm sure. People all over the place trying to keep water flowing and electricity on, etc. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that they're making mistakes while their families might be missing, their homes gone, etc. Why do you think the US is sending assistance over there? Because we can observer and provide some insight and help. The people we send have homes to go to, families that are back safe and sound.

I get the distinct impression you believe some kind of conspiracy is underway. You want in on a little secret? When all of this is said and done there will be tons of data on what transpired and when. There is tons of computer data that will be analysed thoroughly to piece together exactly what happened. What worked and what didn't work. Everyone around the world will know if the data was tampered with because the data won't make sense. There will be so much data on everything that's been going on there's no way someone could alter enough data to hide the tampering. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that somepeople will think the operators were lying, the japanese government was in on it, and that tons more radioactive material was released than claimed. But do this forum a big favor and don't add your BS to a topic you don't understand.

a reactor can´t explode? where do u live? ever poured water on a 500°C hot surface? the fuel rods reach around 2000°C when they´re not cooled.
how much data do u think is recorded when all ur instruments are blown away by a hydrogen/oxygen explosion? and that´s no bs, they admitted, that they have no data of what´s going on inside the reactor. when a reactor can´t stand a plane crash, they really can´t, no nuclear powerplant on earth can, how do u think it can stand such a heavy explosion?

by what u wrote i can see that u strongly believe in how safe nuclear power is and how US experts know what they do and can help the japanese experts. that´s what i call bs...
right now u see that it is impossible to safely shut down a damaged nuclear power plant no matter what kind of expert u are.
03-14-2011, 03:36 AM
MrToad

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadDias

a reactor can´t explode? where do u live? ever poured water on a 500°C hot surface? the fuel rods reach around 2000°C when they´re not cooled.
how much data do u think is recorded when all ur instruments are blown away by a hydrogen/oxygen explosion? and that´s no bs, they admitted, that they have no data of what´s going on inside the reactor. when a reactor can´t stand a plane crash, they really can´t, no nuclear powerplant on earth can, how do u think it can stand such a heavy explosion?

by what u wrote i can see that u strongly believe in how safe nuclear power is and how US experts know what they do and can help the japanese experts. that´s what i call bs...
right now u see that it is impossible to safely shut down a damaged nuclear power plant no matter what kind of expert u are.

Admittedly I don't know about nuclear reactors, but I do remember a experiment done is science class in school with butane gas bottles.

The fact was the amount of butane compressed an stored inside the bottle was not capable of, if ignited, generate enough pressure within the container to break the outer shell releasing explosive energy.

Perhaps the engineers did the same calculation with the reactor steel container and the amount of water you can store inside the container can't produce enough hydrogen if separation of oxygen and hydrogen happens through electrolysis to, in case of ignition, burst through the shell.

If that would be the case, and the shell is strong enough (is not a matter of material strength only, but also shape, it takes far more energy to "blast" through a cylinder with domed "ends" than it does to "blast" through a cube) then the reactor effectively can't explode.

If anything the weakest point, which making another educated guess would be the flow control valves, will give up under the pressure and release gases until the pressure within and without the container equalize. But I don't think this qualifies as an explosion. Would qualify as an uncontrolled discharge of gases potentially carrying radioactively charged particles, but according to my basic physics it wouldn't be an explosion.

As I said this is just an educated guess based on very basic physics, I don't have any formal training as a nuclear engineer.
03-14-2011, 03:43 AM
Don_Dan

I just heard the news that a meltdown is imminent in reactor #2 of Fukushima 1.

Does anyone have more information?
03-14-2011, 03:44 AM
randomizer

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadDias

a reactor can´t explode? where do u live? ever poured water on a 500°C hot surface? the fuel rods reach around 2000°C when they´re not cooled.

Are they even flooding the core? I have seen different reports, some saying that they flooded the core and others saying that they flooded the containment chamber. That said, I don't really believe either report given that most throw in a plug for a Chernobyl repeat to give that little bit of extra sensationalism. :rolleyes:
03-14-2011, 03:50 AM
MadDias

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrToad

Admittedly I don't know about nuclear reactors, but I do remember a experiment done is science class in school with butane gas bottles.

The fact was the amount of butane compressed an stored inside the bottle was not capable of, if ignited, generate enough pressure within the container to break the outer shell releasing explosive energy.

Perhaps the engineers did the same calculation with the reactor steel container and the amount of water you can store inside the container can't produce enough hydrogen if separation of oxygen and hydrogen happens through electrolysis to, in case of ignition, burst through the shell.

If that would be the case, and the shell is strong enough (is not a matter of material strength only, but also shape, it takes far more energy to "blast" through a cylinder with domed "ends" than it does to "blast" through a cube) then the reactor effectively can't explode.

If anything the weakest point, which making another educated guess would be the flow control valves, will give up under the pressure and release gases until the pressure within and without the container equalize. But I don't think this qualifies as an explosion. Would qualify as an uncontrolled discharge of gases potentially carrying radioactively charged particles, but according to my basic physics it wouldn't be an explosion.

As I said this is just an educated guess based on very basic physics, I don't have any formal training as a nuclear engineer.

i´m pretty sure the reactors won´t explode.
but if it´s going on like it is now, the fuel rods will melt down. without any explosion they will melt through the material of the container and through everything that is beneath them. contaminating the whole area forever. if it reaches ground water japan will be without clean drinking water for a very long time.
03-14-2011, 03:53 AM
s0lid

LWR's don't explode when the coolingsystem is busted. The core meltsdown and most of the radiation stops leaving behind useless climp of fuel, they're flooding the third reactor just to prevent it melting down thus keeping it operational for the future.

The chamber of the reactor isn't tinfoil but about a meter of solid steel and couple meters of concrete around it.
03-14-2011, 03:56 AM
generics_user

Quote:

Originally Posted by s0lid

LWR's don't explode when the coolingsystem is busted. The core meltsdown and most of the radiation stops leaving behind useless climp of fuel, they're flooding the third reactor just to prevent it melting down thus keeping it operational for the future.

The chamber of the reactor isn't tinfoil but about a meter of solid steel and couple meters of concrete around it.

however there still is a possibility of the core melting through the container and the containment

no one seems to really know what's happening right now but the fact that they're still able to pump water into the core and containment is a good sign

the contradicting reports on the other hand are a really bad sign
03-14-2011, 04:35 AM
Origin_Unknown

Japan earthquake: Meltdown alert at Fukushima reactor - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12733393
03-14-2011, 04:53 AM
dctokyo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don_Dan

I just heard the news that a meltdown is imminent in reactor #2 of Fukushima 1.

Does anyone have more information?

http://www.japantoday.com/category/n...ar-power-plant

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/...na018000c.html
03-14-2011, 06:02 AM
vandiesel

According to the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12726628

They are pumping sea water to cool, my question is does it come in direct contact with the fuel/rods, if so where does the used water go?
03-14-2011, 06:10 AM
Dr_Swizz

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandiesel

According to the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12726628

They are pumping sea water to cool, my question is does it come in direct contact with the fuel/rods, if so where does the used water go?

Yes, it will make contact interior of the reactor and thus it will be contaminated. I guess they will have to dump it back into the sea, at least parts of it as they are likely to need huge quantities of water to cool the reactor properly.
03-14-2011, 06:14 AM
vandiesel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Swizz

Yes, it will make contact interior of the reactor and thus it will be contaminated. I guess they will have to dump it back into the sea, at least parts of it as they are likely to need huge quantities of water to cool the reactor properly.

Thanks Dr Swizz, this was my concern, and I see no mention of the contaminated water

cheers
03-14-2011, 06:32 AM
Origin_Unknown

something potentially worrying on the bbc live coverage;

Quote:

#
1422: Japanese engineer Masashi Goto, who helped design the containment vessel for Fukushima's reactor core, says the design was not enough to withstand earthquakes or tsunamis and the plant's builders, Toshiba, knew this. More on Mr Goto's remarks to follow.
03-14-2011, 06:43 AM
wez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Swizz

Yes, it will make contact interior of the reactor and thus it will be contaminated. I guess they will have to dump it back into the sea, at least parts of it as they are likely to need huge quantities of water to cool the reactor properly.

Is this really true?
From my understanding the water is not in direct contact with the actual rods, or have things progressed to that now?
03-14-2011, 06:44 AM
El Mano

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh1980

I'm guessing I should give up trying to correct people in the forum. I can't tell if they aren't competent to discuss the subject, misinformed, or just confused. Hondacity, you just seem a little confused. But it seems that others have the sole intent to confuse and deceive.

No please, your input is very valuable.
Thanks a lot for your patient explanations, we do appreciate them :up:
03-14-2011, 06:44 AM
BoredByLife

Dont really understand why my posts are deleted?
I just pointed out a lot of Americans are happy this happens because of Pearl Harbour for some obscure reason.

I don't see anything against the rules here? :s
03-14-2011, 06:48 AM
NEOAethyr

@wez
I don't think it has to to become radioactive...

If the water gets in a zone of radioactivity, it become radioactive too.
This includes people's.

Edit:
@BoredByLife
Because it's depressing, don't fret :).
03-14-2011, 06:52 AM
BoredByLife

Ofc its depressing. It's quite sad people think about it that way. But I am just the messenger. I didn't even receive a PM why my posts get deleted. I understand it's not very positive, but why delete it? I am just the messenger, the real problem is the people who type and think such things.

It's not like I do anything against the rules. No freedom of speech on this forum?
03-14-2011, 06:55 AM
NEOAethyr

I agree with ya dude ;).
Mine were del'ed as well, I was told about it once in pm though.

Once the topic gets rolling, well, it gets worse and worse.
At least mine were :(.
03-14-2011, 06:56 AM
Vapor

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredByLife

Dont really understand why my posts are deleted?
I just pointed out a lot of Americans are happy this happens because of Pearl Harbour for some obscure reason.

I don't see anything against the rules here? :s

XS is not a forum to discuss the 'karma of this happening' :wth:

Keep those discussions elsewhere (YouTube and Facebook seem to be happy hosting it), at best it's off-topic and at worst it's flamebaiting/trolling.

Let's keep this thread for information (josh1980's informative posts are GREAT) as well as discussing what's going on with the XS members in Japan (Team Japan, Miah, dctokyo, et al).

EDIT: there is absolutely no Freedom of Speech on this forum, that's made clear by the rules. End of discussion, NEOAethyr and BoredByLife.
03-14-2011, 07:06 AM
dctokyo

This was posted acouple of hours ago

Quote:

Fuel rods at the quake-hit Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant’s No. 2 reactor were fully exposed at one point after its cooling functions failed, the plant operator said Monday, indicating the critical situation of the reactor’s core beginning to melt due to overheating.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/n...ar-power-plant

also a very good read
Nuclear Experts Explain Worst-Case Scenario at Fukushima Power Plant
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...fukushima-core
03-14-2011, 07:09 AM
NEOAethyr

Why are you yelling at me for now lol...

Anyways to make it easier, here's a link to the page that shows the latest in earthquakes.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/

US 1+ list:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquak...quakes_all.php

World 2.5+ list:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquak...quakes_all.php

Japan is still getting hit hard with earthquakes ^^.
From the looks of it, it won't calm down for a few days at least.
03-14-2011, 07:11 AM
Dr_Swizz

Quote:

Originally Posted by wez

Is this really true?
From my understanding the water is not in direct contact with the actual rods, or have things progressed to that now?

It is true. Water is always supposed to flow thru the reactor core.
03-14-2011, 07:14 AM
h0bbes

According to BBC:

containment vessel in nuclear plant is intact. Radiation stable? (if i understood correctly).

Some ships belonging to the US navy detected increased levels onboard so they moved further away from the plant :

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...08615&comments

More according to BBC:

Reactor number 1:
Explosion due to hydrogen pressure

Reactor number 2:
Low levels of water

Reactor number 3:
Same case as reactor number 1. Had to release some steam to relieve the pressure. Main radioactive material is still in containment
03-14-2011, 07:24 AM
Dr_Swizz

Quote:

Originally Posted by dctokyo

This was posted acouple of hours ago

http://www.japantoday.com/category/n...ar-power-plant

also a very good read
Nuclear Experts Explain Worst-Case Scenario at Fukushima Power Plant
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...fukushima-core

That sounds very alarming indeed. :-(
Very good articles though.:up:

Al Jazeera reports that wind is going change direction soon too:
(http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia...apan-live-blog)
03-14-2011, 07:54 AM
El Mano

Sorry, what does "reactor exposure" means? I guess it means it's been exposed to the atmosphere but I'm not sure.
03-14-2011, 08:13 AM
RPGWiZaRD

Any1 got any ideas how long it'll really take to get the reactors/core cooled down assuming no other issues turns up?
03-14-2011, 08:21 AM
Dr_Swizz

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Maño

Sorry, what does "reactor exposure" means? I guess it means it's been exposed to the atmosphere but I'm not sure.

It means that the water in the core has partitially boiled off/separated into oxygen and hydrogen. Thus the upper parts of the fuel rods are not even passively cooled by water.
The reactor has en steel container around the core so it is not like this takes place in the open air.
03-14-2011, 08:51 AM
Scubar

Well reports have now confirmed that all of the fuel rods are melting and no. 2 reactors core are fully exposed.
03-14-2011, 09:11 AM
MirageSys

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD

Any1 got any ideas how long it'll really take to get the reactors/core cooled down assuming no other issues turns up?

I have limited knowledge of the internal workings of the reactors at the site, but in general, stopping a sustained reaction can take weeks to effectively cool.

They are pumping sea water into the cooling system, hopefully indirectly. The sea water then goes into the containment vessel, mixed with boron (to retard and slow the process further). The sea water then splits into its base elements, and is exhausted into the surrounding air. This is the source of the two hydrogen explosions. If the rods are exposed, its possible they are venting large amounts of radiation. If they are not exposed, or the sea water is not being directly used to cool the reactor, the radiation would dissipate fast and pose little risk to people in the area.

For one reason or another, this episode reminds me of Union Carbide's plant at Bhopal India. There should have been more redundant backup systems online and able to resolve the problem. Hopefully, and perhaps unfortunately, they were disabled by the earthquake and not by human stupidity and greed.
03-14-2011, 09:16 AM
MirageSys

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Swizz

Yes, it will make contact interior of the reactor and thus it will be contaminated. I guess they will have to dump it back into the sea, at least parts of it as they are likely to need huge quantities of water to cool the reactor properly.

At this stage, they are likely not condensing the superheated steam, and are just exhausting it into the air. Normally the cooling system will recirculate water or whatever they are using for coolant.

Normally:

Reservoir of coolant --> reactor where it is turned into steam --> turbines ----> cooling system where it condenses ---> back to reservoir

This case

Sea Water ---> Reactor ----> exhausted steam into atmosphere
03-14-2011, 09:21 AM
josh1980

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadDias

a reactor can´t explode? where do u live? ever poured water on a 500°C hot surface? the fuel rods reach around 2000°C when they´re not cooled.
how much data do u think is recorded when all ur instruments are blown away by a hydrogen/oxygen explosion?[/B] and that´s no bs, they admitted, that they have no data of what´s going on inside the reactor. when a reactor can´t stand a plane crash, they really can´t, no nuclear powerplant on earth can, how do u think it can stand such a heavy explosion?

by what u wrote i can see that u strongly believe in how safe nuclear power is and how US experts know what they do and can help the japanese experts. that´s what i call bs...
right now u see that it is impossible to safely shut down a damaged nuclear power plant no matter what kind of expert u are.

You must want to be a journalist with the garbage you post...

I already discussed this here. Don't sit here and ask me if I know what electrolysis is when it is completely obvious you couldn't even read my posts before posting. Don't spout your garbage if you aren't even making an attempt to be informed on the situation. You have shown your complete ignorance to the situation and have shown you are glad to be in the dark.

You're right. The USgovernment has never run tests to determine how much crap a containment building could with stand. To sum up the video, the narrator states that the "jet was atomised" on impact with the containment building. There's even better videos of planes being destroyed by the containment building, but I couldn't find the one I really wanted to show you.

As for the Japanese not knowing what's going on inside of the reactor, they probably have alot of instrument failures because the earthquake was 7 times more powerful than what they had designed the plant for. The fact that any of the buildings are still standing is a testament to the engineering skill and safety of plants that are 40(yes, forty) years old. If a 40 year old plant is still standing, imagine what the newest generation could do.

As for the reactor not being shutdown, that's complete FUD. The reactor was shutdown withing seconds of the earthquake. When you pump boron into a nuclear reactor, which the Japanese goverment has said they have been doing, that's called "poisoning the reactor" for a reason. They have said that they want to ensure it stays shutdown. So it looks to me like it's shutdown and definitely won't start-up again. Ever.

So stop with the FUD, quit taking what is being said out of context, and read the forum before you start spouting off garbage like you just did. If you don't want to believe it, then don't. But don't go around spreading your BS because you THINK you're entitled to post on a forum when you haven't tried to do your homework.

On another note(and NOT directed at the person quoted above), some friends and I were discussing the Internet the other day before the earthquake. In particular, whether the internet is good or bad. The arguement was being made by one of my friends that the internet can be very bad. Thanks to the internet some high school dropout with no education can log into a forum and post a bunch of BS and other people that don't know what's going on will think that his post is filled with facts. Some people just shouldn't be allowed to have their opinion expressed in an open forum such as the internet.
03-14-2011, 09:37 AM
ProStock

Japan Earthquake: before and after

Source: Google And ABC News

http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/ja...eforeafter.htm
03-14-2011, 09:54 AM
MrToad

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh1980

On another note(and NOT directed at the person quoted above), some friends and I were discussing the Internet the other day before the earthquake. In particular, whether the internet is good or bad. The arguement was being made by one of my friends that the internet can be very bad. Thanks to the internet some high school dropout with no education can log into a forum and post a bunch of BS and other people that don't know what's going on will think that his post is filled with facts. Some people just shouldn't be allowed to have their opinion expressed in an open forum such as the internet.

On this particular respect we disagree, but I can't discuss the matter as is completely off-topic. So we'll have to agree to disagree :)

However, I do appreciate your efforts to illustrate the situation and help us understand what's going on.

Without the knowledge you've share we'd be at the mercy of the media, which as we've already established is not always the best informed source (to put it mildly).

So although I empathize with your frustration I'd ask you not to give up, because if those with the knowledge leave the thread it's going to be rather dark in here...
03-14-2011, 09:59 AM
p2501

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh1980

snip.

Thanks a lot for not giving up on educating people and not losing interest either. :up:

I'm imagining it like this: first, fill up the pressure vessel with sea water/boric acid to keep fuel rods under water. Second, flood the whole containment building with sea water to cool down the outside of the pressure vessel, and keep it flooded. Steam from this step will enter the atmosphere with little effects on the surroundings.

But, why is boric acid so essential in the shutdown process? Why is it "poisoning" the reactor?
03-14-2011, 10:29 AM
josh1980

Quote:

Originally Posted by p2501

Thanks a lot for not giving up on educating people and not losing interest either. :up:

I'm imagining it like this: first, fill up the pressure vessel with sea water/boric acid to keep fuel rods under water. Second, flood the whole containment building with sea water to cool down the outside of the pressure vessel, and keep it flooded. Steam from this step will enter the atmosphere with little effects on the surroundings.

But, why is boric acid so essential in the shutdown process? Why is it "poisoning" the reactor?

Your imagination is pretty close to what they should be doing. My worry is that someone somewhere that doesn't understand the emergency plans are trying to not flood the containment, trying to minimize the amount of water they put in the core, and trying to minimize the amount of steam they release. It's almost like putting a pressure cooker on the stove and trying to let it get as hot as you can with as much water as you can, but try to minimize the release of steam. I get the distinct impression that whomever is making the calls at the top of the Japanese governentment(or the operator), it is purely politically motivated and not in the best interest of the plant. Perhaps they are trying to keep everything inside the reactor vessel and minimize relying on the containment building as the final layer of protection against releasing large amounts of contamination to the environment. I have no solid information to backup my "gut feeling". I'm not completely informed as to why Monday night the fuel was found to again be melting. In my opinion, the only cause for additional core melting would be operator error(but could be due to instrument failures the operators were relying on).

Boron(main component of boric acid) absorbs neutrons. Neutrons are necessary for fissioning of Uranium fuel. It's literally a liquid control rod. Boron is very corrosive and will bond to just about everything in the reactor. Boron literally eats neutrons and in very large quantities. In the hypothetical event that control rods break, melt, or are otherwise not able to be inserted into the reactor boron can be injected. In the case in Japan, all of the rods are inserted(if there is a problem with the control rods Japan isn't talking about it) but boron can be injected as a safety measure to make sure that if the rods are damaged that the core cannot restart itself. Injecting boron into a nuclear reactor effectively makes that core unusable, forever. Yes it "could" be cleaned up and the reactor vessel could be reused. But given the age of the plants and the condition of all of the auxiliary systems for the reactor, there wasn't much chance the reactor would have been restarted anyway. The boron was injected only as a preventative measure to make sure that the core doesn't restart. The boron injection is "just to be on the safe side". The core is effectively "dead" because of the boron, hence it's called "poisoning the reactor".

I'm not sure if boron has ever been injected into a previously operable reactor before, so I'm sure alot of people will want to see how damaging the boric acid will be. The nuclear industry likely will be interested to see the effects boric acid had on the equipment. The nuclear industry is very interested in learning from other's mistakes. Japan is in a situation that is typically only planned for and hopefully never executed. There will be alot of dissecting of the plant going on when it is finally dismantled to see what all was wrong and the effects on the plant.
03-14-2011, 10:32 AM
[XC] gomeler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vapor

XS is not a forum to discuss the 'karma of this happening' :wth:

Keep those discussions elsewhere (YouTube and Facebook seem to be happy hosting it), at best it's off-topic and at worst it's flamebaiting/trolling.

Let's keep this thread for information (josh1980's informative posts are GREAT) as well as discussing what's going on with the XS members in Japan (Team Japan, Miah, dctokyo, et al).

EDIT: there is absolutely no Freedom of Speech on this forum, that's made clear by the rules. End of discussion, NEOAethyr and BoredByLife.

Ffffrrrrreeeeeeedddddooooommmmmmm!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by p2501

Thanks a lot for not giving up on educating people and not losing interest either. :up:

I'm imagining it like this: first, fill up the pressure vessel with sea water/boric acid to keep fuel rods under water. Second, flood the whole containment building with sea water to cool down the outside of the pressure vessel, and keep it flooded. Steam from this step will enter the atmosphere with little effects on the surroundings.

But, why is boric acid so essential in the shutdown process? Why is it "poisoning" the reactor?

While the control rods should have stopped any further uranium fission from occurring(by absorbing any neutrons that just happen to be hanging out in the area), the engineers on the scene want to make sure the reactors stay dead. Neutron moderators(water is one of them) slow down the fast neutrons from a fission reaction in order for those neutrons to be able to fly into and be captured by fellow uranium atoms for future fission reactions. Neutron absorbers(boron is one of them) just suck up neutrons. By 'poisoning' the core they are insuring that it won't ever ramp up again by injecting enough boron into the core that any neutrons that just happen to bounce around slam into some boron instead of some uranium.
03-14-2011, 11:02 AM
xVeinx

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh1980

Your imagination is pretty close to what they should be doing. My worry is that someone somewhere that doesn't understand the emergency plans are trying to not flood the containment, trying to minimize the amount of water they put in the core, and trying to minimize the amount of steam they release. It's almost like putting a pressure cooker on the stove and trying to let it get as hot as you can with as much water as you can, but try to minimize the release of steam. I get the distinct impression that whomever is making the calls at the top of the Japanese governentment(or the operator), it is purely politically motivated and not in the best interest of the plant. Perhaps they are trying to keep everything inside the reactor vessel and minimize relying on the containment building as the final layer of protection against releasing large amounts of contamination to the environment. I have no solid information to backup my "gut feeling". I'm not completely informed as to why Monday night the fuel was found to again be melting. In my opinion, the only cause for additional core melting would be operator error(but could be due to instrument failures the operators were relying on).

Some of the reports are suggesting damage of the pumps that are responsible for filling the core with seawater, which is why they are struggling to keep the cores filled.

Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.
03-14-2011, 11:08 AM
p2501

Okay boric acid is very corrosive but atm very welcome to ensure the fuel status because it effectively turns the whole pressure vessel into a moderator. BUT this begs the question of what is happening now since this already by age, radiation and maybe partial fuel meltdown weakened pressure vessel is contacted by boric acid. It's like what, 20-30cm thick? Will that hold up?

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by xVeinx

Some of the reports are suggesting damage of the pumps that are responsible for filling the core with seawater, which is why they are struggling to keep the cores filled.

Couldn't they plumb different pumps into the system to ensure water level? Or should we assume that by the earth quake and tsunami the whole equipment is that damaged that any change to it will just add to the possibility of total breakdown of control?!
03-14-2011, 11:27 AM
xVeinx

Quote:

Originally Posted by p2501

Okay boric acid is very corrosive but atm very welcome to ensure the fuel status because it effectively turns the whole pressure vessel into a moderator. BUT this begs the question of what is happening now since this already by age, radiation and maybe partial fuel meltdown weakened pressure vessel is contacted by boric acid. It's like what, 20-30cm thick? Will that hold up?

Edit:

Couldn't they plumb different pumps into the system to ensure water level? Or should we assume that by the earth quake and tsunami the whole equipment is that damaged that any change to it will just add to the possibility of total breakdown of control?!

It's an issue of getting the right equipment into the area, much less powering the equipment. The pumps are large and not something that can be assembled simply. With the deterioration of the surrounding roads and infrastructure, I imagine that needed parts would have to be either airlifted or driven over in special vehicles, if it's even possible. Not an easy task in any case.

EDIT: Re-plumbing is dangerous, and the excessive heat and pressure is working against the pumps. if those get too high, I imagine it would blow through the pumps and destroy them, pretty much ensuring that things go out of control.
03-14-2011, 11:28 AM
generics_user

i think that another huge problem is that access to the plant might be very difficult due to destroyed streets and infrastructure...
03-14-2011, 11:43 AM
G H Z

Not to mention you're walking into a contaminated area that could also blow up at any time.
03-14-2011, 11:53 AM
p2501

Quote:

Originally Posted by xVeinx

It's an issue of getting the right equipment into the area, much less powering the equipment. The pumps are large and not something that can be assembled simply. With the deterioration of the surrounding roads and infrastructure, I imagine that needed parts would have to be either airlifted or driven over in special vehicles, if it's even possible. Not an easy task in any case.

EDIT: Re-plumbing is dangerous, and the excessive heat and pressure is working against the pumps. if those get too high, I imagine it would blow through the pumps and destroy them, pretty much ensuring that things go out of control.

Okay, so forget new pumps and try to keep power to the old ones to inject water into the vessel, check. But the problem of getting replacement pumps or proper large scale equipment to the place is exactly why I feel that the comparison with Three Mile Island is not right, there they had at least working infrastructure to try to keep up with the situation. In Japan just about _everything_ is fubar atm. The people at the plant really are trying to fix the situation with close to nothing in their hands. Without knowing if they have a home to return to. Or if the people close to them are still alive.
03-14-2011, 12:02 PM
josh1980

Quote:

Originally Posted by p2501

Okay boric acid is very corrosive but atm very welcome to ensure the fuel status because it effectively turns the whole pressure vessel into a moderator. BUT this begs the question of what is happening now since this already by age, radiation and maybe partial fuel meltdown weakened pressure vessel is contacted by boric acid. It's like what, 20-30cm thick? Will that hold up?

Boric acid is not a moderator, but a neutron absorber ;). I think you meant to say neutron absorber, but said moderator.
03-14-2011, 12:13 PM
NEOAethyr

Air lifting its probably the only option, probably with some big 2x rotor heli's.
Replacing the pumps is probably not gonna work as it was mentioned, back pressure.
So maybe plugging extra pumps in the water loop, but that's probably not even possible, they probably don't have the valves and hookups for that.

As for power, they can air lift in some gas generators, each providing a kw or more.
Enough to power those pumps I would hope...

All we can do is wait and see though anyways ^^.
We'll find out once it's all said and done, just as josh1980 said, people will want to know the details.
Then again if there's something that went amiss because of politics, then expect a coverup maybe.
03-14-2011, 12:45 PM
p2501

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh1980

Boric acid is not a moderator, but a neutron absorber ;). I think you meant to say neutron absorber, but said moderator.

:p: *cough*

But concerning my question, the boric acid is an emergency plan which has never been executed before, right? They must at least have simulated on what the effects on materials used in the reactor would be, question now is if the reactor will fall apart first or they manage to cool it down enough to dismantle it. Which will be anywhere in the next few months... there is a really frightening time ahead of us it seems.
03-14-2011, 01:15 PM
Buckeye

Lets stay on topic here please.

No need to drag all that into this.
03-14-2011, 01:20 PM
josh1980

Quote:

Originally Posted by p2501

:p: *cough*

But concerning my question, the boric acid is an emergency plan which has never been executed before, right? They must at least have simulated on what the effects on materials used in the reactor would be, question now is if the reactor will fall apart first or they manage to cool it down enough to dismantle it. Which will be anywhere in the next few months... there is a really frightening time ahead of us it seems.

I'm sure testing has been done. But when it comes right now to it nothing beats a little operational experience. The nuclear industry isn't going to go injecting boron into a multi-billion dollar reactor just to "see what happens". We have expected information, but there will be little nuances that might help us improve in the future. FYI, the reactor water is kept acidic for a reason. Some reactor designs even us boric acid normally. This isn't some kind of "no-mans land". The industry knows what to expect, but it's also informative to see how things will pan out based on the emergency procedures and how they are executed. The industry might realize that there's a few ways they could improve.

In my opinion, the worst is behind us. Unless a very small handful of equipment fails catastrophically, I think it's only going to only get better from here on out. It's just being sensationalized because that's what the press does. They just gotta show the pictures of the explosions, gotta show the pictures of the general public being examined for radiation, gotta mention "nuclear reactor" and "meltdown" and "10000+ people died" in the same paragraph just because they can. Next thing you know people think that a nuclear reactor melted down and killed 10000+ people. That's all that's going on.
03-14-2011, 01:22 PM
G H Z

Only going to say this once, this situation is bad enough, we don't need any added conflict. The people who's only apparent purpose here is to stir things up will be removed from this section going forward. Please respect the people who are living through hell right now and be thankful you are not one of them.
03-14-2011, 01:24 PM
MrToad

On a much more lighthearted note: Lady GaGa releases a Japan Earthquake Relief wristband.

No comment :p:

Source
03-14-2011, 01:53 PM
h0bbes

Not a big fan of lady gaga but that's a good idea.

Some more updates from BBC:

Apparently the reason why the water wasn't at the desired levels in one of the reactors (reactor 2?) is possibly because of a leak but the officials say that they dont think there is a danger of an imminent disaster.

Some interesting twitter links:
http://www.undispatch.com/must-follo...uake-in-japan#

Something else :
AT&T and Verizon are temporarily making calls to Japan free (except on prepaid phones), AT&T until end of March, Verizon until April 10 (according to a twitter page)
03-14-2011, 02:01 PM
xenolith

If you want to help with a donation:

American Red Cross - Japan Earthquake and Pacific Tsunami Fund

Save the Children - Japan Earthquake Tsunami Children in Emergency Fund
03-14-2011, 02:11 PM
r0lfi

Quote:

Japan's Nuclear Situation - stop panicking please
In the aftermath of the recent earthquake and tsunami in Japan, two nuclear power stations on the east coast of Japan have been experiencing problems. They are the Fukushima Daiichi ("daiichi" means "number one") and Fukushima Daini ("number two") sites, operated by the Tokyo Electric Power Company (or TEPCO). Site one has six reactors, and site two has four. The problematic reactors are #1, #2, and #3 at site one, which are the oldest of the ten and were due to be decommissioned this year.

Read more here:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...readid=3396817
03-14-2011, 02:29 PM
MrToad

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenolith

If you want to help with a donation:

American Red Cross - Japan Earthquake and Pacific Tsunami Fund

Save the Children - Japan Earthquake Tsunami Children in Emergency Fund

Already did with the Red Cross, but thanks for the links all the same :)

Just saw footage of thousands of displaced people on refugee camps and also people trying to make it out of the affected areas on foot as road access is not possible...

First it came as a shock, my mind would refuse to associate what I was seeing with Japan.

I suppose I still hadn't taken in the true scale of the disaster.

The spring equinox is in a week's time, wish it brings feelings of hope and rebirth to the people of Japan and helps heal the wounds that have opened in the past few days.

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