PPCS was taking preorders last i checked. Main comp with bookmarks down while i leaktest new mb and block.
Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk
Printable View
PPCS was taking preorders last i checked. Main comp with bookmarks down while i leaktest new mb and block.
Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=29336Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/12...?tl=g47c17s286
Bummer, I thought the Lamptron folks said the touch was PWM, not voltage controlled.........was hoping it was PWM. 30 watts seems like a LOT without heatsinks using voltage control..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
Back in town, so I'll start publishing the rest of batch 7 as the PC cranks through them. The PAPST is up next...
chrome sync ftw! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by MagisD
PAPST Type 4112 N/2H
Special thank to Utnorris for sponsoring this fan..:clap:
A unique metal frame fan (Blades are plastic) that runs backwards. It has a really low dbA/CFM ratio at 5V, but it resonated at 6V and climbed up quickly. Definitely has some motor noise, but these microphones are extremely sensitive, so it's probably not as strong as the audio makes it out to be.
I would recommend running it at 9V and above to minimize the motor noise. It's too bad 5V doesn't have a smoother motor sound, it did really well at that point in noise level. I do like the all metal frame, and it's fairly efficient.
VIDEO LINK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzVLk59z5BY
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9963/papst.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4995/papstfront.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6638/ra7papstl.png
COMPARED TO ALL FANS TESTED SO FAR
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6...stvsall.th.png
when you say "all metal" does that include blades or just frame?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
(my googlefu has failed me on this task)
any thoughts on WHY they run backwards? pros/cons?
Just the frame, I should fix that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creekin
I'm not sure why they run that way....:shrug:
There from south of the equator? Like toilets?
Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk
hmm that would explain why my "normal" fans don't work so well here in Oz :rofl:
better order some of those papsts :D
btw mythbusters, amongst others disproved the toilet myth, the direction of flow is determined by the shape of the bowl mainly :up:
Really? Darn...and I trusted my grade school science teacher all these years..:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Creekin
those who can, do (like yourself)
those who can't, teach! :rofl:
Yate Loon D12SM-12 From PPCS
In an effort to check on the various yates out there, Vapor sent me a sample from PPCS.:clap:
Compared to my PTS and SWC samples...testing much the same from a noise perspective, although it this one does appear to draw a touch more power (2.5watts vs 2 watts). I'm not sure if that's sample variance or not..:shrug:
Regardless, noise is what I'm comparing here, and it's equally as good as the SWC and PTS samples. Only other difference I could see is the SWC version did not come with a front hub sticker...this one did.
Noise quality is equally as good also. Perhaps I'm suffering from 38mm fan click annoyance, but it was quite pleasing to listen to some yates again.:) Very smooth air like sound with really no obvious motor noises or resonance anywhere to be found.:yepp:
VIDEO LINK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jZteo-ZlGA
I'll give it another thumbs up for bang for the buck fan....:up:
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6567/yatesmppcs.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6...mppcsfront.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5...yatesmppcs.png
COMPARED TO ALL FANS TESTED SO FAR
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9...csvsall.th.png
Yate Loon D12SL-12 Curved Blade FCPU
Another fan sponsored by Vapor, thanks!:clap:
This time a sample from FCPU of the SL model. While noise level/CFM seemed roughly the same +- 1dBA, this one also consumed slightly more power (2.27 watts) than the PTS SL version(1.45 watts) similar to the PPCS SM vs PTS SM models. Unfortunately this one also has a very small tick in the motor. This is pretty minor considering the silent testing environment (no masking ambient noise) and very sensitive microphones, but I do hear a minor amount of motor tick present that was not apparent in the PTS sample.
Perhaps this too is just sample variance, but I prefer the PTS sample tested earlier mostly due to the smoother sound.
VIDEO LINK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlf7HIJpJJM
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2856/yateslfcpu.jpg
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6...lfcpufront.jpg
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6...yateslfcpu.png
COMPARED TO ALL FANS TESTED SO FAR
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3...puvsall.th.png
Scythe SlipStream High Speed-V (Vapor Sample)
Special thanks to Vapor for providing this sample. The one I tested previous was actually being used as a case fan for a little while, so it was good to get a nice fresh sample to compare.:clap:
It came in fairly close +-1dbA, but this test did perform better. Noise quality is much the same, so I'm not going to bother with rendering another video.
Anyhow, here are the results, I'll add this information to the original sample post. In general this sample shows a fairly strong CFM/dbA at lower volts compared to most fans, and sort of creeps up into the pack at 12V. Noise quality wise, I don't think it's quite as good as the yates for example, but it's all fairly close and subjective. It is a power hungry little fan though, all 4.5 watts much like the other sample.
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9...7sstreamhv.png
COMPARED TO ALL
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/1...hvvsall.th.png
Here are some temporary tables to supplement the very busy line graphs:
This is sort of a summary table:
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/7...ble1127.th.png
And a break down of 20, 30, 40, and 50 CFM levels with lowest noise to loudest noise levels in dbA.
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/71/112710b.png
Nice summary. Especially for thick radiators (20cfm). GTs take all :rolleyes:
FYI, ordered a few more from SWC tonight:
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/1516/swcorder.png
Hoping the delta follows a similar good cfm/dbA routine of it's VHE counterpart, and the other two for some additional PWM options. I've been working on my PWM controller, the 4 pin is working great (Modified it with a 5V VRM so I can just feed it 12V only) and now I'm attempting to build a 3 pin version to hopefully try if all goes well.
This is the 3pin PWM version I'm going to attempt...:)
http://pcbheaven.com/circuitpages/PW...r_using_a_555/
in the circuit described in this link, a transistor to switch the ground line of the fan (low side switching) is used. would be a big surprise if you get usable rpm readings this way. recommend to use so called high side switching, which is connecting the transistor between +12V and the fan. but you need a different type of transistor here and probably a second transistor to shift voltage levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
also i expect you will run into the same problem i did, which is very limited rpm control. in this circuit ability to control rpm is also highly dependent on load (fan current rating).
but give it a try.
as already stated in another thread (#33 #36 #54 so far), required power (wattage) is totally overrated. even the most demanding fan in your tests here (Delta AFB1212VHE) will produce less than about 2.5W power dissipation in the controlling transistor. look for my postings in this thread for more details on issues with PWM control.
efficiency:
trying to save 1W maybe 2W per fan seems nonsense to me, when we are using systems which burn several hundreds of watts in total!
heat:
same here, it should not be that big of a deal to get rid of this additional few watts generated by the fan controller.
analog fan control on the other hand gives you easy rpm control independent of fan current rating and also usable rpm readings at very low rpm.
but that's my point of view, others might be more particular here ...
Awesome, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by fgw
I've got some reading to do...:up: Having a ton of fun building these mini circuits, so even if I fail, it's all good fun and likely a good learning effort at the same time.:D
The only reason I'm exploring PWM and alternative controlling methods is to see if there is any difference in how the fans react. But really...I'm just using this as an excuse to play with my electronics learning lab....:)
good idea! go ahead and practice. no need to send you a prototype you can build one at your own when my design is done ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
I wouldn't be surprised if your measured noise levels are different when using PWM, because fans act as very simple loudspeakers emitting a tone. Ideally, if your time base for PWM is above 20KHz - you won't hear it, but the noise measuring equipment might still pick it up.
Nice! Give me a circuit and I will build...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by fgw
I just tried a quick test during the day, and the dbA/CFM lines were exactly the same other than I didn't have any voltage targets to go by in the PWM test.Quote:
Originally Posted by jumper2high
Here is a quick video comparison of Voltage vs PWM from that pcbheaven design.
As far as I could tell, the noise level and quality were the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzFdkLVJt5A
Nice! Give me a circuit and I will build...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by fgw
I just tried a quick test during the day, and the dbA/CFM lines were exactly the same as the previous voltage run, other than I didn't have any voltage targets to go by in the PWM test.Quote:
Originally Posted by jumper2high
Here is a quick video comparison of Voltage vs PWM from that pcbheaven design.
As far as I could tell, the noise level and quality were the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzFdkLVJt5A
I ran it on the breadboard..wasn't sure if I would like it or not. It does seem to work fine, but I'm not really seeing any advantage. I loose RPM readout and it performs the same pretty much.:shrug:
It was fun building though..:up:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8849/3pinpwm.jpg
I really like this PWM vs Volts test !
I alwais plugged my UK3 on a standard controller cause i already read that somewhere but never tested.... PWM is worse.
would agree as long as we are talking at controlling 3-wire (non PWM) fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulard83
if it comes to 4-wire (PWM) fans, PWM is the way to go. this fans have their PWM controller already built into them. their controller is designed and tuned for the fan motor used in this fan and will work pretty well over a wide rpm range. on top of that, this fans provide rpm readings all the way down to lowest rpm without any problem as their rpm detection circuitry is powered from a steady 12V supply.
but as i said before, currently most fans, and as it looks like now, also the better performing fans (cfw/noise wise) are 3-wire (non PWM) fans, so i will focus on them.
Probably pwm fan share will slowly grow by time (regarding current best being 3-pin analogue voltage regulated ones), just as pwm header count on yer average motherboard compared to old 3pin ones count.
As pwm versions of the best fans come to market I believe MB makers will add more pwm to their boards
The pic based controllers should prove interesting ....If the cost is reasonable. I am thinking that resistance based control for 3 wire fans is reliable until we solve the issues. even a switched resistor network would do for most people.
Martin,
There are a few advantages of PWM.
Not the least of which is the fact that the RPM is regulated the same on all fans regardless of how they're made (it doesn't matter if the fan turns on at 4v or 7v - both will have about 50% RPM at 50% PWM duty cycle).
Also, PWM lets you use MOSFET transistors, which usually have a considerably higher power rating than BJT transistors with the same size/package.
Yes i was refering to nonPWM fans, like my UK3 that have less ticking with standard V regulation.Quote:
Originally Posted by fgw
Would you be willing to test one more 120mm fan? I'd be willing to have a 120mm and 140mm Be Quiet! USC fan sent to you via Aquatuning.us. Send me a PM if interested!
Imho it's the fan to beat for very low noise levels. I have many fans (see below) but this is honestly the only one that I can say is virtually inaudible at 500-600 RPM and close range.
I have tested it against many fans, like the Gentle Typhoon (great 1k+, but I just can't get them anywhere near inaudible), Nexus, Noctua P-series, Enermax Magma, Arctic F12, all the Noiseblockers (want more of those?) for comparison but they just don't match up. I would be really interested to see if it's only the noise level that's really good compared to the RPM or if the noise/CFM is also great.
And thanks for doing this!
Good discussion.
I guess I did miss the lower RPM advantage of PWM. This PWM controller does give me a slight advantage in have a lower RPM floor (Maybe .5 to .7 "Volts" worth). I don't quite understand why yet, the PWM signal is almost converted to lower voltage using the large capacitor but it does seem to have a better ability at going a little lower in speed..
So far I haven't noticed any benefit to "Less motor Tick" with this particular PWM controller, but it also appears there are several types and ways of doing PWM control.
When I play around with my Crystalfontz PWM controller, it actually has an obnoxious "Kick" if I dial it down really low. The fan will actually torque on off at a very slow cycle rate (maybe 4times per second) and you can even feel and watch a strong fan move at each kick. The designer of the PWM circuit I used to build the video test actually notes he had this same problem until adding the large cap to smooth out the PWM pulses. The only good thing about my Crystalfontz controller is that it maintains RPM readout, so it must be reading during each pulse and calculating or something along those lines.
Regardless, so far I haven't found "3 PIN" PWM to be superior to voltage as I had hoped.
Either you get the "PWM KICK" noise without the cap, or "Voltage TICK".
Seems like 4pin PWM is the only real good PWM setup, but even that is a bit "Fan Specific". Some of my 4 pin PWM fans have a large range of control, nearly 0-100%, while most seem to only turn down a little bit...and some make some noise, while others seems to be pretty good.
I plan to do some 4pin PWM testing after I get my last order in using my 4 pin PWM controller Bing designed.
Martin, fyi, at that diy controller of yours, with just an additional of 3 poles switch and a resistor, it will cover full range with 3 zones at 0% , 2-98% and 100% like this here :Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
That resistor values is not critical, as long above 100 Ohm, just look at your components bin, any resistor that has a resistance in hundreds of ohm should be fine, heck, even 1K should be ok too.
Attachment 109901
Of course this minor mod will not have as the other circuit that has a clean and smooth range from 0 to 100%, but think this should be enough to serve your purpose. :D
Awesome, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by bing
I'll try that:up: I plan to do some more testing this coming weekend, maybe some PWM 120mm fans (if my order makes it by then), and/or starting in on the 140s:up:
Great, btw do you have any plan to include Thermalright TY-140 in your 140mm fans test ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Really curious how it perform and the outcome if its one of your 140 test, cause I own few of them and imo it beats Noctua P14 and Yateloon's 140 in air hs at the noise/cooling performance ratio, subjectively of course. Not sure bout it's cfm though.
No, I only have the TR X-Silent, it's the only TR 140 with a full 140mm frame. I looked at the TY, but since it's a 120mm fan mount, I'm not sure how I would go about mounting it to the 140mm radiator. I have the 120mm to 140mm adapter that should allow me to mount some 120s on the 140mm radiator, but that adapter is pretty tight to the 120mm spec. If anything the adapter is a touch small. The TY140 would overhang and loose a bunch of pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by bing
Hehe... just TAPE (double-sided) that TY-140 on there!
I dunno... is that too much of a variable as to invalidate the results?
You could mount it to a square piece of wood with a hole the size of 140mm fan inside but mounting holes for 120mm and 140mm. That way you can screw the fan to the wood and then screw the whole thing to the radiator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
But almost no-one gonna use such piece of wood on real rads/real builds, and existing 120-140mm fan adapters (eg. BP's or Koolance's ones) have limited inner size (for 120mm fans), so only way to go is to make some custom adapters or use only on rads that have both 120mm & 140mm mounting holes (eg. tfc monsta and aquacomputer's one). So while yes, TY-140 shown very good cfm/db in Jordan's test, it's non standard mounting holes & fan casing makes it hardly usable on LC rads and most probably it will be seen (if ever) in veeery small amount of LC builds.
TR X-Silent shown good cfm/db as well, but was little set back by it's max rpm-s of only 900 IIRC.
Good ideas. I don't mind entertaining any sort of side experiments, but I haven't been sponsored any of the 140mm types with120mm frame mounts. I also spent the last of my fan fund, so no more unless someone wants to step up.
It might be better to wait until I get the 140s I have on hand done first anyhow...hoping to do that this coming weekend. Then we'll see if there are any tends or stonger types to focus more on.
Martin, What pwm fans do you have or have ordered so far?
Could add funds for
http://www.crazypc.com/products/afc1212de-58162.html and http://www.crazypc.com/products/afc1212d-58170.html (the second one is an af but 25mm which makes me curious....
Let me know if interested
EDIT it might be interesting to try and find the PLA12025S12M-4 fan from the Xigmatek aegir (a 2000 rpm pwm model)
OldChap: For Delta AFC1212DE: "5pin / 4 wire PWM (DELL Style Connector)" - what's that? :/
I couldn't tell what the 5th pin is but dell and HP and others have built MB's with this format of pinout for cpu fans and on some you need to be wary of which pin is which. I first saw it on an optiplex desktop board and later on a HP 9400 workstation board. Other than that the fan works just fine. The connector may need the lugs cutting off to use it though
This is what I've got lined up for the 4 pin PWM test, not very many...but a place to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldChap
Sure, I'm game. You sponsor & pick, and I'll test:up:...either one looks like a good option assuming it follows the AFB1212VHErev3 qualities.. I have the non PWM AFV1212HE in route, but that'll be the standard voltage control test. I could play around with my 3 pin PWM controller some more too, but I'm not seeing any noise differences with that one yet.
That is one hell of an assumption but there is one way to find out :)
I'll get some more funds to you tomorrow. I think you saw that dell delta somewhere cheaper so I'll leave that part up to you.
So are you interested in me sponsoring you some fans? I can have some 140mm Noiseblocker and Be Quiet fans sent to you, and a 120mm Be Quiet as well. Or I can actually and try have them send you some for free, I think I know a guy who might know some guys :)
Aquatuning offer to sponsor some fans too a while back. I turned them down at the time because I was feeling a bit overwhelmed with the growing pile of fans I had untested at the time, but I could ask if they are still willing. I'm starting to get caught up and feeling a little better now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickel020
I really have no idea what to try, but I'm open to anything.:up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
Yes, that 5 pins Dell's connector at this fan can be replaced with the standard 4 pins pwm connector, here is mine :Quote:
Originally Posted by OldChap
Attachment 109953
Good fan that covers wide range of rpm while very quite when slowed down to minimum speed.
Recommended for Martin to test it. :D
If you were to take #AT up on that offer, and you had the time, and didnt mind the extra work, i would be very interested in the YL 140m 2300rpmQuote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
I am going to need a whole pile of these soon and i am curious to know what i am letting my self in for noise wise. :)
With blades like that that delta probably good pressure fan?
my motherboard already has 4-pin PWM fan headers. but as you said, right now we are bound to 3-wire fans as there are no real alternatives in PWM land available. may be TY-140 but unfortunately its not available until now. so i stick with gt's for now ...Quote:
Originally Posted by OldChap
yes pic based controllers are the way to go. this allows full control of the fan by software. i'm not interested in having this fancy lightning knobs somewhere on the front of my pc which in fact is located under the desk. prefer to control everything from the desktop. so that's the way i go now.
don't think the problem with PWM control for 3-wire fans can be solved in any way. as fans are build of brushless dc motors, they all have some sort of circuitry built in which switches the the magnetic field in order to allow the fan to rotate. this circuitry gets confused by applying a PWM signal instead of a steady voltage. some fans have more problem with PWM than others.
agree to 100%: for 3-wire fans, voltage control is the way to go.
Going a bit off-topic here, but as we are discussing PWM connectors, I thought to put in a quick question:
Fans in e.g. PSUs or graphics cards sometimes use a four pin connector that is smaller and looks different from the standard 4-pin PWM. I don't have a picture, but the connector at the end of the fan cable goes into a socket on the card. The colors of the cables are the same as in standard PWM, but they are in a different order. Can anyone confirm that the colors and purposes of the cables are the same? In practice, can I just match the colors of the wires to attach a standard pwm fan to the smaller connector? Many thanks for any advice!
unfortunately this depends on the manufacturer. they might use their own pinout. if the fan is supposed to be connected to the motherboard it will comply to the pinout defined by intel. if it is supposed to connect to the vga card its up to the vga card manufacturer. i have already connected aftermarked fans to nvidia cards and can tell its not the same pinout as intel uses. you need to experiment and measure ...Quote:
Originally Posted by HanMies
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/tmwong/ext.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by HanMies
This is the PWM extension I customized for my ATI 5870 to drive two Artic Cooler F12 fans with built-in PWM amplifiers. I believe its pretty safe to follow the color code of the wires as follows;
GND = Black
12V = Yellow
RPM = Green
PWM = Blue
Source:
http://www.formfactors.org/developer...1_2_Public.pdf
Phil
Thanks to Philwong and fgw for the tips! Turns out that the pwm pin order was correct but the colors wrong, and now my new PSU no longer sounds like a vacuum cleaner.
Hello community
such a question
what will be better to 9x120 rad
9 gentle typhoon 850rpm
or 4 180mm Silverstone air penetrator?
gentle typhoon i plan to use at 500-600rpm max.
Gt's check my build 29 1850 @800rpm and my corsair ps fan is louder.
Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk
Not sure, but in that scenario, you're talking about the same radiator resistance. In each case the fans work in parallel, so the resulting air flow will be a function of just one fan's pressure spec at that particular RPM.Quote:
Originally Posted by cka3o4nuk
600RPM is really hard to measure much of anything in either pressure or air flow. I would go for which ever has the smoothest sound.
I'm just starting in on the 140mm fan testing, so I really have no idea what to expect from the larger fans. The yate high speed I threw on my new 140mm template wasn't as good as I had hope. It seemed to exhibit some very minor motor tick, but also some odd harmonics perhaps with the blades flexing or something.
At 600RPM, I'm also not so sure the GTs are really any advantage over most fans, their performance difference (3dbA) or better tapers down to nearly nothing on fans below 1000RPMs. Personally I think some others could even be preferrable depending on your tastes.
All I know is the 120mm air penetrator didn't do very well in my earlier round of testing, it had some motor noise and really didn't have very good radiator performance.
That could change for the 180mm version I suppose....we just don't know much of anything about the larger sizes.:shrug:
FYI,
I've finished building the 140mm fan testing template. Pretty much identical to the MCR120 template except using the Hardware Labs 140mm SR1.
Ready for some 140 runs this weekend...:D
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2...sttemplate.jpg
And this is with the template and fan mounted...everything else will be the same.
Although, I'm thinking I should call this 140 testing round 7 so they are not confused.
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1...stscenario.jpg
This it's actually fantastic! I can't wait to see some results from the 140mm fans.
+1 ^
120s are kids toys! :D
bring on the real man fans! :rofl:
plus i have SR1s, so doubly keen to see the results
:up: new thread for 140s please :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Martin: i'd love to see this time for 140mm fans being in same test/roundup as 120mm counterparts for single reason - i'd love to find out how good/bad they do compared to their smaller siblings on almost same testbed and on same chart. Are they up to job, or 140mm fans/rads are not reasonable choice as of yet compared to 120mm ones..? In few cases 140mm rads as being wider can give more rad area, but if fans cfm/db wise are not there yet, users should find out that for better planning of component choice ..
Have no fear, Vapor has stepped up and already sponsored an adapter..:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
All ready to go, although I'm not retesting all the 120s...only the top couple...:up:
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9...0mmadapter.jpg
I'm not going to compare to the MCR120 rad test results though, that would be totally different restriction scenarios. Even this is a bit apples to oranges with the extra shroud benefit (depth plus extra vibration absoprtion) of the 120mm adapter, but it's the closest thing I can think of.
If it's really close I may even build a 140 > 140 shroud to run the top 140 performer on.
Anyhow, there will be a new round 7 for the 140s, but I will include a couple of 120 runs on an adapter just for that reason..:cool:
should change this to the 120mm fan test thread and make a new 140mm test thread and get them stickied.
You should also check these fans - Scythe Kama Flow 2. Looks like another nice FDB fan - IMO way better than S-Flex, and is one of the best according to recent fan review by Jordan (in Russian, but you can check diagrams @ bottom :)).
Ah i didnt realise you had already got a high speed one. Pity about that, i had planned to have 24 horizontal but i may need to rethink, fast 140s are hard to find, even harder to find cheap. lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Unfortunately, not many seem to read the information in the sticky at the top of this section :(Quote:
Originally Posted by mindwreck
This will definitely be stickied when Martin is ready - up to him as to whether he wants to have separate threads for 120 and 140.
Nice Work, Martin - looking forward to your 140 results.
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by shazza
Yes, and would you mind changing the thread title to:
120mm Fan Testing on an MCR120 Radiator Round 6
Please:D...thanks!
I'll have more 120s I'll be testing, so I will continue to update and add results here, but it's getting pretty close now, and I did finally get around to organizing the links at least alphabetically:up:
I'll create a new round 7 thread for the 140mm radiator based testing..:up:
I thought about picking one of those up, but it didn't make the cut. I chose to spend the last of my fan fund on another Delta and a few more PWM fan options for something to fill in the med/high speed and PWM only gaps. If you want to sponsor one though, let me know..:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiser
This is such complete info Martin and so useful. I shall be interested to see how the best of the 120's perform on the SR1. For a long time now it has been talked about under the heading "Which fan for which rad" so to see the flow rates for this in black and white should finally provide people with impirical evidence to support the claims.
FYI: No new offers of fans, in wanted, by the way
Title changed, and added this thread to the Sticky Section ...
Perfect...thanks!!:up::up:Quote:
Originally Posted by shazza
@Martinm210..first of all thank you for all the hard work on the past and this test/roundup on 140MM fans
I know there is not that many good 140's out there but if you could find (in your pile) Scythe KAMA-FLEX 135/140MM 1600RPM that would be great !
I have this fan on Hardware Labs 140mm SR1 and would love to see the results .Thanks again
I'll keep an eye on that one, we'll see..:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhandluke41
FYI to all....anyone that wants to see the data in various bar or other formats, may want to try this. This is still in draft form, so let us know if you see errors.:up:
AndreaBZ SPREADSHEET LINK
AndreaBZ took the data collected and created an analysis spreadsheet, so anyone that wants to sort the data into different formats can easily do so. To do this, he had to create trendline equations for all the data, so it's going to average out some of the bumps from the actual data points. The great things is you can now sort by CFM or dbA or RPM and click a macro button to automatically sort the results. You can also pick and choose up to 5 fans and compare the charts.
Here is the PM he sent me, thanks for doing this::clap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBZ
OK ... I've been through all the data, looked at the charts, listened to the recordings, and trying to figure out what it all means :p:
It's easy enough to point people to this thread for detailed info - but knowing there are folks who won't go through all the data, I've been thinking about how to explain this stuff in simple terms (and how I will use it myself).
Bear with me while I think as I type here - just wanting to make sure I'm on the right path.
Assuming I'm using a Swiftech MCR radiator with a fan controller. I want "good" performance, and I'm not looking for extremely high (or low) speed fans ... I've got a number of fans in mind, because I've used them and heard about others. So how do I use this data to help me decide? I've picked these out to examine -
1) Gentle Typhoons ... GT13, GT14, or GT 15 - to be determined (tbd)
2) Noise Blocker - but which one ... tbd
3) Zalman ZM-F3 - never used these, but they have previously received a lot of good feedback
4) Yate Loon - specific one tbd (have used them, and their price can't be beat)
5) Scythe S-Flex (picked these because I've used them and liked them)
6) Enermax Magma - have used them, and one of the few "red" fans without LEDs :p:
7) Noctua - I like them on a heatsink - what about on a radiator?
Okay, 7 brands are more than enough for me to consider.
My next question: How much air do I need to move with these fans? After using the eXtreme PSU calculator, and some other estimator spreadsheets, I figure out I should be okay if I can run in the 1200 RPM range. Not too scientific, but my previous experience tells me this will work for me. But wait, I just read 15 pages about fans, and they aren't ranked by RPM. Ahhh ... I guess I should be more concerned about CFM. Looks like my previous fans have been in the 20 to 30 CFM range, so I'll start with that. Hey - I thought these fans were pushing 50 - 70 CFM :)
Sometimes I might want more airflow, and sometimes less, so I'd also like fans with a decent range.
And, noise - my hearing isn't what it used to be, so absolute silence isn't critical. But, I tend to use a lot of fans, so quieter is better. I wear headphones when gaming, so louder fans on occasion is also okay.
I'm going to start by looking at the chart that shows min and max CFM for my candidate fans:
Gentle Typhoons (minCFM - Max CFM) all readings rounded, since this isn't rocket science
GT13......................9 - 24
GT14......................8 - 28
GT15.....................13 - 35
Noiseblocker
M12-S3.................18 - 32
PL-2......................13 - 25
Zalman
ZM-F3....................15 - 37
ZMSF3....................16 - 30
Yate Loon
SL Petra...................15 - 30
SM Petra..................18 - 37
Scythe S-Flex
S-FlexF.....................9 - 31
KFlexH.....................12 - 38
Enermax
Magma.....................15 - 30
Noctua
P12...........................17 - 25
S12B.........................15 - 26
Not a lot of difference, but I'll rule out the ones that are below 30 on the high end of their CFM range, just because I want to have a little more flexibility at the high end, and I'm pretty sure airflow in a case environment is going to be less than in the test procedure. (edit ... just realized I should have kept the Yate Medium in for the next pass, but won't go back and add it now)
That Scythe KFlexH looks interesting (*goes back and reads the individual review) ... thumbs up from Martin, they're available from Amazon with prime shipping (just checking availability). I'll take this fan to the next round.
The Scythe GT 15 looks good ... on to the next round.
Same for Noiseblocker Multiframe M12-S1. Looks a little weird, but let's keep it under consideration.
And the ZM-F3 deserves another look,just because I've heard so much about it.
Now I've picked four fans to check out further. You can tell I'm biased to getting a "medium" speed fan that has more potential at the higher end. Simply preference on my part ... not meant to imply any real significant difference in performance.
Let's look at noise for my 4 picks to see if I can rule any out based on noise:
I looked at the summary chart in Post 1, and the bar graphs showing dbA @ 20CFM and at 30CFM. The dbA data at 20CFM and 30CFM, followed by Martin's subjective noise rating, shows the following:
KFlexH....................39 - 49 dbA, 8.5
GT15.......................35 - 43 dbA, 7.5
NB M12-S3..............39 - 49 dbA, 9.0
ZM-F3......................39 - 50 dbA, 8.3
I think any of these would work - now my choice is based on other factors like pricing, availability, and power. All else being equal, I'd go with the GT15s at this point - given the discernible difference to the human ear is about 3 dbA (as mentioned earlier by Martin).
But, I'd like to know if there are any big differences in Power requirements ... rather than looking up the specs (which may, or may not, be correct) I'm going to pick a number off of Martin's "CFM vs. Watts" chart. I'll pick 30 CFM as my comparison point:
KFlexH.........................0.70W
GT15...........................0.60 W
M12-S3.......................1.50 W
ZM-F3.........................1.10 W
Kind of interesting. I knew the GTs had low power consumption numbers, as I'm using them in a current build, and was surprised when I was doing my calculations for how many could fit on my fan controller.
When you have 12+ fans in a build, power consumption is worth considering.
A quick look at pricing (admittedly,this hasn't been my top criterion - but it's become more important since I've reached the age of living on a fixed income :cool:):
The KFlexH is $12-14, the GT15 is about $16 when you can find it. The Noiseblocker is $20+, and the ZM-F3 can be had for less than $10.
(I still don't think you can beat the Yates for lower speed fans if you're looking for a bargain).
Some of us are particular about how a fan looks. For a quiet no-frills black fan, I'd be inclined to give the KFlexH a go. I might choose the Noiseblockers if the color combination fit with my build.
So ... that's how I'd use the data to pick a fan. Of course, I didn't have to do all of that, did I? The GT15 turns out to be my top choice, and I could have picked that up from the first chart.
But ... I had no idea the KFlexH even existed, so good learning there. I also now know to check my power setup if I pick up some Noiseblockers. And, I also understand where my existing Scythe S-Flex, Yates, and Enermax fans fit in terms of noise and CFM performance.
Whew ... I'm tired now. Good thing it's :banana::banana::banana::banana:tail hour in Florida!
:toast: to Martin for all his hard work.
Martin i know it wouldnt be fair for the san ace, but they really change when placed in a shroud.
Have you tried them with shrouds?
I noticed the noise level is the first one variable that changes noticable.
OR are my fans just tripping out?
Does Martin still have hair???
Can't help feeling that he will be pulling it out at the thought of re-testing with a shroud fitted :D
You make a valid point though ... when this is about sound and sound quality it is one possibility that must be investigated at least for a few of these even if only to prove or disprove the theory.
Shazza, good thinking there. Personally, I came to this wanting to know if there is a high speed (read performance) fan which would also be capable of being turned down when the rig is not being pushed hard. I am still looking for that one that overlaps the ap15 and Delta .....now just need to get another couple of fans to Martin.....and hope he is willing :up:
I like your workflow, that's a great decision process and example..:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by shazza
I tend to use the "Listen blindly by matching up FPM only" video approach as well. In the end if you're deciding between a few fans, just get a couple of windows going on the videos and match up similar air flow levels and pause each video. Then simply play each video back and forth and simply listen blindly (close your eyes) and go back and forth between fans. I tend to be one that doesn't trust meters or instruments very well. Noise level is one thing we can quantify with a tool, yet it doesn't at all fit what is annoying, etc. The good ole...trust your ears first...forget the numbers for a bit method..:D
No, I only tinkered a little with shrouds, but I plan to do some of that after I get all the main shroudless testing done. I suppose I could try a San Ace if that's what you guys want.:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
I only did one quick shroud vs. no shroud test with the yate, and couldn't really see any difference, but there are a few ways you could make a shroud. Do you bolt all the way through, or do you bolt the shroud to the rad, then the fan to the shroud to help isolate vibrations. Do you use grommets, or certain gaskets. The options are endless, and figured I'd save some of those tinker tests for last.
+1 on that. That's really where my next interest lies as well. Just trying to make sure my simple mind can comprehend all the data.Quote:
I am still looking for that one that overlaps the ap15 and Delta
I'm really grateful to Martin for doing this, but also don't want to burn him out! For example, it would be fun to see how some GT fans that have been painted compare to the originals - but that might drive the poor guy over the edge ;)
I've could probably do that to my wonky GT15, but it's pretty inconsistent, so I could very well come back and tell you it's and improvement..:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by shazza
Vapor said he's ok with my keeping these, so maybe I can try that at the end. It'll probably be kawasaki green or something like that though...:D
FYI, these are next on the testing short list, thanks to Old Chap for two more Deltas and RatDog for the bottom three including some more PWM options...:)
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4...ditions106.jpg
I think some of these detlas should dial down better than the previously tested VHE that ruled the high speed area..
This is Hilarious : )Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
@Shazza, what's a Bananas Tail? : )
and that's what I've been doing to figure out these fans. minus any sort of organization or thought process like you though lol.
this is coming along!!!
that scythe looks loud..
I don't need any of the fans back :)
:lol: @ censorship :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by penguins
http://media.onsugar.com/files/ons1/...ana.xlarge.jpg
Anything to space the fan out a bit so you get the full vortex of the blades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
I noticed spacing them out, you dont hear that whine noise they make @ 7v.
Also i noticed a lot more air going though.
So, how much space 25mm, 38mm, 50mm??? Yep I'm thinking of using fan frames.
Ultimately I suppose a duct from the rad with a fan at the far end.....
OK, I'll plan on doing a little shroud experiment run. I need to do one for the 140 vs 120+adapter controversy anyhow. I've got a few gutted 120 fans lying around, so I'll plan on running the San Ace120, yateSM with/without shrouds and maybe even try 25 vs 38mm or more depending on time.. Going to save that shroud work for later though, the new fans and PWM work is next in line.
30mm is about right? I'm using old 25mm fan frames though ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by OldChap
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=193953
If you have the space for it:
push -> shroud -> rad -> shroud -> pull
High speed fans:
push -> shroud -> rad -> pull
push -> shroud -> rad
Low speed fans:
push -> rad -> shroud -> pull
rad -> shroud -> pull
--------------------------------
Looking forward to the test of the upcoming fans, think we will find the lower speed Deltas really closing the gap between the GT and the rest...
Martin thank-you so much for all your amazing work, I'm in awe of the time you're able to set-aside to help the community!
Coming back to this for the 1st time in months, only just been advised by a local retailer (aust) I pre-ordered with, that my AP-15's are available.
Apparently they've been ready to pick-up for many weeks!
I plan to read this latest round in it's entirety tomorrow, but as it's now 320am I must get some shut-eye.
Just wondering if anyone can summarise, is the AP-15 still considered the noise/CFM king, or is there a new contender or contenders?
How does the 2150 & 3000 RPM compare to the 1850, are either a better alternative IYO?
Perhaps the 2150 is not a substantive enough improvement over the 1850?
I have some AP-15's ordered as rad fans, but if the CFM to noise ratio of the 2150 or 3000 is as good, & one can still make them comparatively quiet (as needed)...
...then perhaps they're a better option?
Any thoughts/experiences greatly appreciated, thanks/night!
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst
GT's are still doing very well in the 1000-1850RPM range, although it does have some quirks. I've had two AP-15's with resonance issues depending on the radiator, so some sound quality issues to be aware of. Below 1000RPMs, I think they are all fairly close (within the 3dbA "barely perceptible" range, so plenty of options to choose from at the low end.) 1850+, some of the newer Delta's are also performing similarly like the VHE which came out a good 5dbA lower in noise level than the next best high speed fan. Unfortunately, the Delta VHE is pretty much high speed only and don't like turning down much. This is why there has been alot of interest in exploring some of the other Deltas....hoping to find one that bridges the gap a little better. Plan to test a few more this weekend...
Unfortunately, it seems you're still always best off picking a fan that can run at or near 12V at your desired noise level if possible. Same goes for the GT family, no sense buying GT15s and undervolting them to 7V all day...the AP13 or 14 performs slightly better at slower speeds and has less of an issue with resonance.
In the end, I try not to get hung up on any one fan...none of them are perfect, and as noise always goes...pretty subjective. I tend to be one not to trust numbers or meters anywhere near as much as my own ears, and that's why I've put much of my time into recording the whole process. Trying to record it in the best video/audio quality that I can so you can do you're own review.
My suggestion will always be...let YOUR ears do the review.. Compare multiple videos and match up like air flow numbers, and see which one "sounds less annoying":up: Just don't put too much emphasis in the noise level numbers, I've been tempted many times to completely remove the sound level meter and just have the audio to listen to. I'm still just not very happy with the common tools we have to quantify "annoying sound"...but it is what it is..
As far as the higher speed GTs...I have no idea. I know some folks on OCNs air cooling forums managed to find them by special order through some Japan sites, but it looks like they are paying $60+ a piece for them and their subjective tests seem to indicate they were fairly loud... So until they become readily available, not much sense in testing them.
But, I'm always willing to try one (if someone wants to sponsor) until the wife kicks me and my test rig out of the walk in..:D
Yes, they're damn expensive :( like this "MEAN"-Typhoon. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
http://i51.tinypic.com/27zw9ah.jpg
Shot with ordinary GT1850.
D1225C12BBZP-00 with rectifier ring at the blades for high speed.
Max speed : 5400 rpm , 150.1CFM , 1.14 Amp , 150 Pa / 0.6 inH2O , 50.5 dB,
Its the PWM version (4 wires) with minimum speed 1000 rpm at 0% duty cyle.
Non PWM part no is D1225C12BBAZ-00
It has the beastie CFM, imo one of the most powerful 120x25mm, 12volt fan and also has a very wide range from silent at 1000 rpm up to max speed at 50db that covers from mid to high cfm range while at 25mm thick.
I somehow doubt in GTs still being best above range of common varieties of them as well. After all, specific shape of blades can work well at specific range of rpm-s. In pics it looks rather unchanged for those extreme GTs. GTs shine in 900-1800 range, what's wonderful that it's most commonly used range noise wise (900-1400), below there are more silent fans, and i'm guessing - above aswell. I don't expect miracle of it being best everywhere. Imho 2000 and above fans with more fit for high rpm blade shapes should show better cfm/db ratio. Of course, i might guess wrong and someone can prove by real testing of those extreme GTs.
Yeah would be interesting to see if the high speeds D1225C might cope with the Deltas (AFB models).
I see B6=2150, B7=3000, B9=4250 & BB=5400
http://catalog.nidec-servo.com/digit...general/g_fab/
You might be able to get them trough:
http://www.cliffinc.com/products/fans/index.htm
What, a 5400 version, I thought the highest GT was 3000? Crazy!Quote:
Originally Posted by bing
I love that it's still got great RPM variability, & is still only 25mm.
Tempted to get 2x D1225C12BBZP-00 instead of 2x AP-15.
Then again they're prolly tricky to get hold of, & as-you-say, pricey.
Where did you get yours from?
Thanks Martin,Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
I'm using the MCR-X20 rev.2, it came with my H20-220 Edge kit, hopefully the AP-15 has no issues with it?
I'd definitely be interested in hearing more about these potentially more flexible Deltas you speak of.
AP-15's it is then I think....
As I'd be fine with running at or near 12v most of the time, so long as they happily volt down a bit with a controller if/when needed.
I also want to find the cheapest price for a 3000 (or higher) GT, buy 1x, & send it to you.
So if anyone knows the best spots to buy, please let me know!
Good point, it remains to be seen i think, I want to find the cheapest place to buy a 5400 RPM GT, I will buy and send one to Martin :DQuote:
Originally Posted by churchy
i wouldnt care if you were proved right or wrong, i just want to see martin test a 5400rpm GTQuote:
Originally Posted by churchy
D1225C12B7AZ-00 is 3000 rpm GT and is about $28 plus shipping from Japan
D1225C12BBZP-※ 00 is the 5400 rpm pwm GT and is about $53 plus shipping from Japan
Just one source checked for this.
http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...58%26prmd%3Div
Crap $53USD that is a lot for just one fan (I'm Australian), not sure if I can afford it...
Martin if you can give me your shipping address, I can work out how much extra shipping $ is required.
jalyst, that came from the site pointed by OldChap, and unfortunately they ship only to Japan. :(