None what so ever, tested on 3 diffrent EK blocks, Tested on Koolance and some BP.
No one who used Ours or IDC has reported any flaking what so ever.
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None what so ever, tested on 3 diffrent EK blocks, Tested on Koolance and some BP.
No one who used Ours or IDC has reported any flaking what so ever.
No, no issues. Again, the fluid is 99% DI water. So, if you have anything in your system that DI water is going to corrode then it is a possibility. ZnO2 does not react with copper or aluminum or nickle, so it isn't going to do anything that DI water wouldn't do. I spoke to our chemist about the issue as well, and that is pretty much exactly what he told me. I'll see if I can get a nickle plated fitting and soak it in a cup of the coolant and see what happens. I keep meaning to take apart the system at the house that has been running for almost three years without any upkeep. I will see how the cpu block looks. Also, when I get home I have two blocks that were running Ice Dragon back in January that have been sitting on the bench. I will see how those look.
Corrosion, no. But it does stain nickel. It will require a polishing compound to remove the staining.
After a few months of use:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...02/Stained.jpg
After cleaning w/ polishing compound.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...02/Cleaned.jpg
I have your fluid, I wonder if developments are planned in the future
developments for the future in general?..yes. As we speak, we are working with OriginPC testing the fluid in a contained CPU cooler - like the H100. We just sent some to Fractal for the same sort of testing.
We are currently testing the coolant in cars and motorcycles - with a strong lean towards rally racing/enduros. This is because in enduro races a lot of times you'll go through a wide open section in which you are running your engine all out, and then you come to a section in which you have to run at high rpms but you aren't moving very fast - a steep hill climb or a tight forest trail. This is when typical coolants can't handle the heat load and the engine overheats. We tried to get into NASCAR, but they wouldn't allow it.
We are also looking into the cooling of intercoolers used in turbos.
We have a full scale HVAC test going on at Thermal Engineering in Columbia, SC.
We have been asked by the Air Force to build a rack mount, portable server that can be deployed into the desert and run off of their generators.
that is all I can think of at the moment..:)..we have CES2013 that we slowly have to get ready for too and it's only June..
I meant an evolution of the liquid, its components, new nanoparticles
We are looking into a few different nanoparticles, but the problem is really with the cost. When we initially did this project we looked at Copper, Aluminum and Zinc nanoparticles. The zinc ended performing the best even though its thermal conductivity is not the highest. We have our theory on why, but this was also nice because it was the cheapest and the friendliest when used in cooling systems. You have all kinds of nanoparticles to look into, but the cost gets really high. But, we are doing some research on some others. We should actually know in a few months how one of them works. As soon as we are done with the Origin/Coolit tests we will try this new stuff.
Thank you for your response :)
Soon we may see a fluid with carbon nanoparticles SWCNT or MWCNT .... The price is the problem ...
I know this is sort of far away, but CES is offering free registration for next year's show. It ends Aug 31..
http://registration3.experientevent....1/Default.aspx
Carbon nm work. weve had them under test for over 3 years how ever unlike IDC we have never managed to get them to work perfectly.
and our new bottle..looks good
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7.../NewBottle.jpg
Yeah, looks stylish !
here is our latest.. we are measuring all the data now...jet black
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...ps400730ff.jpg
we call it, WARRIOR
the constitution of the fluid changes or is it just the color that varies ?
it is an entirely new nanofluid.. it will only be black
What happens when you mix white w/ black?
it'd probably turn grey..:)
but, since they are entirely different I really don't know. We haven't gotten there yet. As long as the surfactants on each don't interact all should be just fine.
nanoparticles are always of zinc oxide ?
no, these are not ZnO2. You can get nanoparticles made of all kinds of different material, but the expense comes into play when looking at a majority of them.
how does the new batch of nano particles perform compared to the current ice dragon coolant ?
That is what we are working on right now. As soon as we get done I'll let everyone know and give some more details.
OMG. If I can get a grey coolant and not have to use dye I'd be stocked. http://smiliesftw.com/x/eek5r2.gif
News ?
We are working on CES. It's a lot of stuff to take care of - believe it or not. We are going to be bringing some of the black liquid (shown above) with us, and we hope to have one other thing done by then to showcase - we are trying to get it built now. OriginPC is showing one of their Ice Dragon cooled computers at our booth. But, CES is really taking up all of our time.
stop by if you are there.
Here is one of the things we are hoping to have complete for CES. It is the thermal head for the cooler we've been designing/working on. We haven't named it yet, and we haven't finished milling the piece down. But it shows the kickass 'twisted' pins.
come visit us if you are going to be at CES..
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...twistedpin.jpg
Hi Relttem,
Here's what I'm wanting to find out. I just purchased 2 of your IDC nano fluid as a result of watching a vid you put out on YouTube showing actual results of getting an average of 4C less than just using other kinds of fluid. But when I went here:
http://skinneelabs.com/coolantfluid-...performance/3/
I saw some very different results. Can I ask why and what is going on with there test compared to the one you did? I just hope I didn't throw my $$$ out the window ordering this stuff? :confused: Please get back to me as soon as you get this. Thanks... :cool:
Any updates on the black coolant?
ahhh yes...it's been a while..
So, briefly, we are still working on the black fluid. It's been rather a headache to get everything going with it, but we hope to be testing that any day now. We are testing a new fluid, which I will discuss in a moment. We are also working on a system that is similar to the H100, but with a few changes that are pretty unique.
The new fluid is basically the same thing as the current fluid except that it is in a concentrated form. One of the biggest hurdles we face is the shipping costs due to the amount of liquid involved. So, for the last year or so we have been trying to make a concentrated version that has enough pH tolerance to let an end-user add distilled/DI water and everything work just fine. We think we have done it. So, instead of buying a 1-liter bottle you would get a smaller bottle - 250ml (we aren't sure of the exact amount yet) that would allow you to mix with 750ml of water to get the same thing we sell now. We are thinking of putting a graph on our website, which is being overhauled as we speak, that would show/allow you to calculate the density/viscosity of the coolant if you want to use different amounts of water. We are doing some tests on different concentrations too.
We have finished the first rounds of tests with the concentrated version and everything appears to be identical to our original version - which is to be expected since we were just mixing in water. The nice thing is that we used a bottle of water purchased from 7-11. This Friday we hope to start testing our new black fluid.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...oncentrate.jpg
Does the 250ml concentrate have roughly the same amount of nano particles (or whatever they are called) as the 1L premix?
Yes, it does. If you mix the 250ml with 750ml of water you get exactly what we are selling. So, if you want a higher concentration you can do that too. We will put a graph on the website when it is all done that will show you the concentration you get versus how much water you use. We might also put a few graphs up there of temps that we get at different concentrations.
Here are some photos of the cooling system we have been working on. We hope to have it in a system in the next few days. The copper tubing is flexible and can be twisted/spiraled to conform to the available space. We will route ours over the fans in the computer. Notice there is no radiator, which we hope will help with the air flow thru the computer case due to the amount of restriction from the radiator being gone..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...es/photo_3.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...s/photo_11.jpg
Um... You plan on selling a water cooled system without a radiator? Is that what I am reading?
yes, instead of a radiator the twisted copper tube will do the job. The twists allow for a lot more heat transfer across the copper due to the turbulence inside and outside.
Twisted Copper tubing.....intrigued how you did that, or found it
It seems to me, that area of heat exchange of sample twisted tubing is much much smaller then that of fins of even 1x120 rad, yet might cost about the same?
that's probably correct. There are a couple of other things coming into play too - the liquid flow thru the twisted tube versus the radiator will be different. The twisted tube is not really relying on fin heat transfer as much as the radiator. There will definitely be some challenges. There are no correlations between regular copper tube and twisted tube, so you really can't determine what length of tube you will need to remove X amount of heat. And, that also depends on how the twisted tube is configured. We hope to try a few arrangements and see if it will work. My only experience with twisted tube is in cryo-systems with phase change, so I don't know how this will work with only the liquid phase. I honestly think with the right set-up of the twisted tube it will work.
I am going to be putting it in an old Alienware desktop system. If I get it to work I will post some pictures of how it looks, and how it is performing. I hope to do this in the next few days. First, I have to see if I can get the old computer to boot..:)
Problem being, that heat transfer from liquid to metallic tube by far is not the bottleneck. Heat transfer from tube to air - is. At least that's the way it's in LC rads, and i doubt to see something fundamentally different in this case. It's just like with those "wonder" feser admiral rads with not flat inner tube surface, or rads with copper tubes instead of brass ones. Improvement in most cases is small enough to not justify more expensive material cost and difficult manufacturing. BTW, i see another problem with these twisted metal tubes. It hurts bling looks :). I liked few high quality builds with shiny metallic tubing, but here .. these tubes makes me think of shower tube from bathroom. So still expensive, even harder to make then with normal metallic tubes + not bringing bling looks of them, and not actually adding much to cooling. Imho more drawbacks then gains.
I appreciate your opinion not liking bling and all. I don't like Fords, so I don't buy them..:). I am not sure I understand your 'bottleneck" statement. If you can't get the heat to the air-side tube/fin wall you will be in trouble in general. In regards to air side heat transfer; turbulent flow is much better than laminar, which the twisted tubes should have. I am not claiming to get better heat transfer with the twisted tubes but am going to "see" if I can get the same - meaning that I won't need a radiator. Also, if I don't like the shiny color I'll just paint it.
You didn't understand me right. I like bling, and i like bling of metal tubing (such as in eg. murderbox). I won't use such myself as it's harder to do and more expensive then lazy and cheapass me would like. What i don't like are looks of these particular twisted metal tubes shown in pics. It's matter of taste though.
"Isn't bottleneck" as in capability of transfering heat from coolant to such metal tubing isn't what limits cooling capabilities, is not "narrow place" in chain of all stages of transfering heat from what are you cooling to ambient air. So enhancing it with twisted inner structure of such metallic tubes won't bring you much. Tubulent flow indeed is better then laminar, but even with laminar these tubes are more then enough capable to get heat from water to their metal walls.
On the other hand getting heat from those tubes to air IS bottleneck/narrow part, and small relative to rad fins area of heat dissipation, not placed right in way of concentrated air flow produced by fans, WILL make cooling capacity of such LC sys very limited, thus not worth to do, especially if it requires extra expensive tooling, extra work, won't bring good cooling, and hurts looks. Heat dissipation limits here wil more then offset whatever little will be brought by twisted inner structure with turbulent flow.
It's somewhat like story about plastic vs metallic cpu waterblock tops, where metallic one often won't give you any roughly measurable difference, but changing fan speed or rad section count will get temps down.
It will definitely take arranging the fans of the system in order to use the twisted tubes. The copper tubes will heat right up - just like a radiator. Again, I am not trying to beat a radiator, but I think the heat transfer due to turbulent boundary layer inside the tube/outside the tube will equal laminar boundary layer over fins and inside radiator. What I do not know is if I have enough length, if I will need a bunch of fans (since I don't have any correlations I have to reverse engineer the 'h' value) or if it will even work.
Your argument with the plastic tops is right along with mine - lowering the thermal mass. I will measure the mass of my system versus the same set-up with a 240 rad and see what the difference is. Thermal mass will definitely come into play.
With length shown in pics i'd rather estimate cooling capacity of this to less then that of 1x120 rad section. And that with more then one fan, or putting tubing into some air tunnel, or bending it snake or spiral shape to be blown at with reasonable amount of fans. Something can be cheated out, if toubing touches metal parts of case, partially using them as extra heat dissipation area. But then again metallic tubing touching case might bring extra noise from vibrations passed from pump to case walls.
just gotta fill it up and see what happens. I was rather sloppy with the routing/bending/twisting as I am more interested to see if it works. I also have to track down a fan for the back. The front panel already has a fan...
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...installed2.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...installed1.jpg
man, that IS something to see.....
I have it filled, but I can't get the MB/CPU to work. It is an old MB, and I had no idea if it was going to work. I thought it worked when I put it away but evidently not. So, I am going to swap the MB out and try again. If that fails, I will just get a cheap MB/CPU combo to see if this will work. As of right now, it is full and not leaking - that is at least a good thing.
it's alive. I had to swap out the MB. It is running prime95 right now. I'll post those temps when it is done. Those are the idle temps showing. Of course, this doesn't have the side panel on, nor does it have any large fans - just the two small ones blowing on the line. I'll get everything back together and arrange the fans and then see what happens maybe this weekend.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...runningIDC.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...altempidle.jpg
Prime95.. not bad
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...es/prime95.jpg
We are looking at getting some Tshirts made - what do you think?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...adjakprint.jpg
CES2015 free registration is open. If you have never been, it is quite the experience.
Our booth was re-located back to the south hall - #26312
Oh man... Those twisted tubing test photos really took me back to some of the wacky watercooling hijinks that went on a decade ago. If you're going to have any of that stuff at your booth to look at (even hidden away in a box under a table), I'm so there. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by relttem
We will definitely have the twisted tube stuff there. I used twisted tube way back in 2000 when I was at Kryotech. I am in process of getting a new AMD system put together to see if the twisted tube system can handle the heat of an AMD chip. It had no problem with the i7 chip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
I'd be down as well. This is EXACTLY what my father kept referring to and this type of product is what he envisions scientifically correct/efficient PC watercooling (he's a retired cooling/thermal engineer). He was so annoyed/couldn't understand the need for such large pumps and diameter of tubing used in PC cooling when simple tricks like twisting the lines can actually lower temperatures drastically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
My father kept (and still keeps) trying to get me to install devices to cause water turbulence inside the tubing so the larger ID tubing has the water "scrubbed" from the outside of the tube. His example of why turbulence is needed is bubbles sticking to the inside of the Tygon tubing.
Turbulence where it's needed, and less of it where losses from it outweight gains. Sometimes "professional" thermal engineers think out .. something very weird, ignoring any experience from others doing PC LCing. I wonder if it isn't because they are used to planing and implementing loops of different corner cases, specifics, pressures, temperatures, using components of different characteristics & optimisations and alike. In another forum from alike pro person i saw loop with each and every block paralelized with individual shut off valve for each subloop, heating battery as rad. Of course, maybe using very high flow/little pressure circulation pump might be the reason, but imho it's another case of "i know better, because i worked professionally at somewhat related field, thus need no pesky accumulated experience of just DIY enthuziasts".
definitely stop by our booth. Also, CES registration is free until August - I think. So, at least register and have a badge on hand. Start looking into hotels if you are serious about going - they sell out quickly.
The toughest part about using the twisted tube is getting a correlation for the heat transfer. There are so many variables that it is almost impossible to get a good indication of the needed length. My previous experience with it was with refrigerants, so there was a lot of phase change. But, it worked extremely well. A while back I posted a picture of a cooler I was trying to make with twisted tube.. I'll dig that up and post below.
I do agree somewhat with that, in the sense that they sometimes (especially my father) forget the variables used in projects like this. For example, it took a while to convince pops that water wetter isn't going to increase performance in the loop due to the much lower temperatures in PC watercooling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Church
On the flip side however, some of the tricks we can learn from these engineers carry over and can make our life easier or the products more durable. In my own rig, I'm running a D5 plus a XSPC Raystorm and a GTX 580 block from EK, along with a Thermochill 120x3. Using glycol, I've had the loop running non-stop 24/7 sans block installations since 2007 with the same pump and radiator. This has been mirrored in several other builds I have made for clients that still run to this day without any maintenance needed sans dusting. A few things aren't typical on my rig, including some high-dollar flow meters, circuit setters, and a bleed line to make sure there is zero air caught in the loop. Due to the bleed line, I never need to bleed my systems for air and with my circuit setters, the pump isn't stressed often.
Phobya and other companies are making the same bleed valve-type device that we added to my Thermochill via modifications.
How does this stuff react with led lighting? Looking at monsoon reservoir and has led lighting, wondering how opaque this stuff is
it is super opaque. Actually, it is more due to the light scattering of the nanoparticles that won't let the light through. That is why it is difficult to clear all the bubbles out - you can't see them. We weren't able to shine a pretty powerful laser through the fluid when we were doing the original research.
we've worked a little on our website -
www.icedragoncooling.com
check us out at CES. I think you can still register for free..It might end this week
This is what we are looking at as the BACK of our CES postcard/brochure.. any suggestions?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7.../frontcopy.jpg
this looks awesome :up:
I changed the Origin to black..it looks a lot better. Here is our latest contraption. As soon as I get some RAM I'll give it a go..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...s/IMG_1706.jpg