so you added a variable to make it worse. what if this was an open bench and all air in the room is 25C. or if the case has good airflow and is practically ambient.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
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so you added a variable to make it worse. what if this was an open bench and all air in the room is 25C. or if the case has good airflow and is practically ambient.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Just got a 3" face mill in the mail.
Attachment 105950
Need a better vise though.
Nice, I need a real face mill like that...I've just got the el cheapo lathe bit single cutting type...they work ok but that's about it. Seems like the tooling need never end in machining..:) Id like a bigger lathe, bigger mill, TIG welder, pan/brake/............oh and that 24 x 36 shop!!!
Whats weird is, my mill says face mill capacity is 1". Here I have a 3" bit and it works like a charm. I need a true squared block to start with though, cause no matter how long I sat there facing that block, it still wasn't perfectly true.
That could be the vise. A precision ground vise and parallels seem to help me with that a lot, although my passes are never as perfect as I would like either...
I think they call them die makers vices or something like that..mine is only a 3" so a bit small for some things..
The vise pictured there is a 6" cross vise, but my standard 4" vise is a bit more accurate I think.
Try using an indictor mag mounted to the spindle and run on the vice surfaces...that's the only way to be sure. I picked up a cheap one at harbor freight and it works good for that.
Is this what you are talking about:
http://www.harborfreight.com/media/c...image_1476.jpg
Are you trying to be a pain or do you really want to know? I'm happy to try to explain (as best I can) if you are genuinely interested. The long and the short of it is, in either case, the difference in temps of the water we are talking about due to an over sized top are minuscule as in likely unmeasurable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
The problem with the vises like nateman is using is the moving jaw tilts up when you tighten it . This type of vise is also too flexible at the fixed jaw and bed to get any kind of repeatability when changing the work piece position . Small changes in the torque you apply clamping the work piece will also effect the position of the part as well .
For precision work you need to buy a real vise . The best investment you could make is in a Kurt anglelock 4 or 6 inch model . Once you use one you won't believe the difference . They will also out live you if you take care of them at all .
Heres a link http://www.kurtworkholding.com/workh.../anglock_d.php
They are not cheap . But if you want square and repeatable , for the money they are hard to beat .
Look on ebay for Kurt vises . There is usually several to chose from at decent prices .
GL
j
+∞Quote:
Originally Posted by jetroho
Kurt vises are astronomically expensive but, they were designed for an industrial atmosphere where they would be used (abused) on a daily basis. A cheaper (but no less effective) vise might be this one.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...MT4NO=88940017
It's design is exactly the same as the Kurt and it should last nearly as long, provided you take care of it.
@ waterlogged
I tried one of those some time ago . worked ok . But the one I got was not square anywhere . A friend bought three at the same time I got mine . One was real nice , the other two were worse than mine . If they changed their QC then it would be a great deal . If not , then not so great . imho .
j
Looking into a vise now. I just picked up the dial indicator. All they had was the actual dial indicator. I plan to make a mount for it, install it in the arbor (or chuck) and just slide the vise along the X access. Hopefully its not all that jacked up. I actually hope it IS off, this way I know im not crazy. I ordered a set of parallel's (thanks martin) so hopefully I can make something with decent accuracy. The slit saw's should be here today. In fact they may just be sitting on my doorstep right now.
Ahh I loved this thread. Just went though all 13 pages. First it was all flames and arguing and stuff and after Vapor's results showed that it didnt work out, most of the arguing started stopping and everyone got all cuddly and started hugging and talking about machining and better designs and stuff.
Definitely worth the read :up:. But anyway my own thoughs about it: I was also really skeptical about it right from the start and predicted that results from Vapor would prove this wrong (since the temperatures with the heatkiller were so high on stock settings). But never the less I liked the idea and I also think that its nice that some people try different things and especially nice that you're gonna move on to different ideas/improving old ideas. Also really good that you shipped the block to Vapor and let him test it in the first place since a lot of people here will probably always be super skeptical about testing results unless they come from skinneelabs or some other trusted source.
Anywaaay a fun thread :up:. You should post here/make a new thread here once your next block is ready (and hopefully tested by Vapor or someone) :shrug:
Heh... we can all be civil.
Santa brought LOTS of stuff to play with tonight. Gonna try that slit saw once I true up the table.
after santa stole your credit card lol
table was trued up. less then .001 on the vise. Man that takes a WHILE!
ARBOR FAIL!!! argh! what a piece of crap!
:censored:
Yeah, you can also buy or make a flexible holder. Then you can indicat the vise floor and jaws of the vise to check square. You can also indicate the workpiece after clamping..really a must have tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
I bought a cheap toolmakers sine vise, sometimes called precision vise or tool and die vise, etc. You can find them on ebay for cheap, it works ok..the key is the jaw pulls across AND down so both jaws remain parallel. It also hase a nice ground surface for the parallels to sit on/against.
If you have the $$ a better vise would be even better, but any sort of machinist vise should be a lot better than the slide vise. Holding that workpiece square and solid is really important for precision work.
My only vise regret is only having a 3.5 inch capacity, but it works for most of my needs.
i figured out why the arbor blew goats. the 1/2" shank is a hair too small, so i couldnt get ANY of the saw's i bought to actually fit on. I can see why people make their own.
my Drill Press vise and my last jobs :
Grizzly: $16 :rofl:
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/9461/97143772.jpg
COLDCOPPER V_2 :
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8559/63658294.jpg
COLDCOPPER V_3 :
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4268/24666799.jpg
.
My vise is basically the same thing. Here is the tramming device that I made yesterday:
Attachment 105966
Just a .5" Aluminum round stock, that I milled out a groove. Then drilled & tapped it. Installed it in the 1/2" collet, and traversed the table a bunch of times.
WIN!!
dremel vs saw:
Attachment 105967
Saweeet! Now the saw blade fits on the arbor. I took it to work and messed around with it a bit. Turns out the arbor was .5" +/- .0001, so I figured leave it be. There was a coating on the blade the was preventing it from going on there. Now its perfectly snug.
A little bit of oil goes a long way.
Attachment 105969
That is a 1/16" cutout.
Nate size your pictures to be like 800 wide, they HUGE. :)
micro fins are a go.
Attachment 105988
Keep the work on a new block nate. I would skip the whole fan/wb idea totally though. Focus on making a plain wb... :2cents:
Why would I want to quit?
ROFL! Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
NEEEVVAAAARRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:
Version 1.1 has been completed. Unfortunately, it broke my mill. Now the gears are all messed up. :(
Replacement Mill is on the way. What are opinions on baseplate thickness?
1/4" sounds like a safe middle point
Simple. As thin as you can get from cpu's IHS to water without it overly loosing structural rigidity to not get too deformed when it's mounted on cpu + choosen height of microchannels (higher ones probably will result in lower flow restriction, as overall cross-section for water will be bigger). Afterall best thermal results will be with one atom thick layer between water and coolable surface :)
Heatkiller is 2mm.
...and the microchannels are 1.5mm...meaning parts of the baseplate are only .5mm thick :O
HF's microchannels are ~ 1.9mm though.
2 mm sounds like a good number to me. Its do-able.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/heatkiller-i7.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by churchy
:shrug:Quote:
It's less complicated than it sounds really--the base is 2mm thick and over the width of a typical IHS, it has ~52 microchannels that are 1.5mm deep into the base. What does that mean for you? You have water flowing within .5mm of the very bottom of the base and have a lot of surface area really, really close to the heatsource, your CPU.
i wouldnt get that close at first, how bad would temps be with an extra 3mm in there? cant be more than 1-2C difference
You wouldn't got 2 mm to the base?
If a block's that thin it will bend a lot under the strain of the mount, reducing contact surface. So too thin isn't always that great as well. Though you could try doing a very thin centerpiece, which isn't big enough to cover the entire CPU. That way, the thicker part of the base also still sits on the CPU, which should make it bend less.
Can also be made to "bend" the other way. Use an o-ring to seal the inlet area pathway and create a bow in the base. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandr0s
There is no bending of this base, trust me ;)
The new version is the same exterior (mostly) but the internals are completely different. The motherboard will flex WAY before the block does. So will the space time continuum.
nateman: no bending - so probably solid base part very thick? It won't affect performance of block too much?
the mounting is built to take 70lbs of force like its nothing. if you dont put center pressure on it, then it can flex, even just by a few thousandths of an inch, which then gives horrible contact where it needs the best contact (in the center)
a few thousandths of an inch is what the thermal paste is for.
Not exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
Thermal paste is for little gaps in the surface that you can not see.
Not a surface which is not flat.
Most waterblocks on the market are bowed, so they end up being flat when mounted. There is a certain amount of pressure needed to mount them properly.
On that same token, most waterblocks are also a thinner base plates. I don't see much flex in my block due to its massive size, It has over 1/2" of solid copper. The likelihood of four 6-32 screws warping it before the board is just inconceivable to me.
Nate, that is air cooler thinking and it will lead you down the wrong path to a lot of wasted material. Thinner is better for water. . .please, I beg you. . .trust us on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
I'm sorry, just was saying that the HK LT block is only a thin piece of copper. My baseplate is 2.3mm thick where it makes contact with the CPU. While my baseplate is thin, it also has a surrounding copper body which it will not flex from the "strength" of a PCB.
heres what you can do and its very simpleQuote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
mount your block normally and get the cpu running hot, when your temps stabilize start cranking down the screws a little, like a half turn each, wait 1-2 minutes and see if the temps go up or down or not at all. (the actual amount you tighten the is based on if you use springs or just thumb screws against the block, if u dont have any springs then a full turn will break something cause they are already super tight, so go very minor then)
if your temps go down then you have room to tighten it, if your temps are going up, then you have a base thats flexing. repeat the same test but loosen the block, which should obviously raise temps unless it was already flexing.
theres so much math involved with energy transfer, surface area, and other crap, so knowing whats best takes a rocket scientist, or we just do that simple test and see the before and afters. thats why i like adjustable mounts, its hard to have a bad mount cause you can fix it without having to take everything apart
UPDATE: Baseplate is >1mm
.95mm is what I measured.
Keep up the good work, Nate!
Fixed :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
.65mm now. I am a little worried that when I lap the base its going to get paper thin.
is getting complicated :eek:... sanding can kill you.:down:
Try starting with 1000 grit. I know it sounds crazy but you'd be suprised how much you really can (or cant) remove.
Anything over 800 grit is a waste of time and effort.
Except for a bit of bling factor perhaps :D.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
But yeah, go with 800 or so.
just make sure you give it a good flat surface test, all you have to do is look at the reflection off the base at something with square lines, like grid paper, and if the lines dont go strait, then you might not have good contact
It was lapped to 800. Sorry I dropped off the face of the earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JASSAF
im sorry :(Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
.
its ok. Been busy with life, but will resume in a few short weeks! Looking forward to it like no other!
Woot!