Microstuttering tests on ATI Radeon HD 4870 X2

No, not because of PLX chip, because thats also problem of normal CF setups.
Probably it won't be fixed with drivers either.
We don't know for sure what causes MS, but it looks like it's problem of rendering method (AFR), so it will be hard to solve.
Tomorow or day after tomorow I'll get 4870X2 and I'll see what's going on there ;)

About visibility of MS.
When youre over 50 FPS with your SLI/CF you won't notice MS (well about, CoJ isn't smooth even at 70 FPS. Crysis looses its smoothness below 30 FPS. As long as you don't move your muse too fast :P).
But when your FPS drops below that, you'll notice that game loose its smothness.
Problem is that usualy 50 FPS in SLi/CF means that single card has about 30 FPS there, so whats the point of 2nd card?

The PLX chip supposedly increased the amount of MS that occured by allowing the time differences to vary even greater than normal. Sampsa's little test seemed to show it as the worst offender

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Originally Posted by bedlamite

No, not because of PLX chip, because thats also problem of normal CF setups.
Probably it won't be fixed with drivers either.
We don't know for sure what causes MS, but it looks like it's problem of rendering method (AFR), so it will be hard to solve.
Tomorow or day after tomorow I'll get 4870X2 and I'll see what's going on there ;)

About visibility of MS.
When youre over 50 FPS with your SLI/CF you won't notice MS (well about, CoJ isn't smooth even at 70 FPS. Crysis looses its smoothness below 30 FPS. As long as you don't move your muse too fast :P).
But when your FPS drops below that, you'll notice that game loose its smothness.
Problem is that usualy 50 FPS in SLi/CF means that single card has about 30 FPS there, so whats the point of 2nd card?

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Ah, if it's with normal CF setups as well Ill just get the HD 4870X2 then, saves me a lot of money too:D.

If I suffer a lot from MS, Ill just grab another HD 4870 1GB card, that would pretty much solve any low FPS, if I might have/notice the MS in the first place.

So 4870x2 came to me.
What can I say.
I think you'll be satisfied with this card ;)
MS is not completly fixed, but there is big improvement. So big that most of ppl won't ever notice that smth is wrong.

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Originally Posted by bedlamite

So 4870x2 came to me.
What can I say.
I think you'll be satisfied with this card ;)
MS is not completly fixed, but there is big improvement. So big that most of ppl won't ever notice that smth is wrong.

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How much of an improvement is it over the 4870's or 4850's in CF? I know I've yet to see any MS issues with my cards but as well seems like most games sit at or above 40-50FPS consistantly that I probably wouldn't notice a major issue.

It's not much worse than single card. You can see some pattern, but it has minor influence for your gaming experiance (in 99% of cases).
Problem is with some strange spikes, which i've noticed, but unfortunately I didn't have enough time to check it better.

Hmm? You're saying you have a 4870X2 in your system atm? Any testing/results?

Looks very promising. MS will never be fixed while in AFR since it is just the nature of AFR, but if it is minimized to the point where it feels like a single GPU and is rarely ever present, then it's going to be a damn fine card!

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Originally Posted by bedlamite

It's not much worse than single card. You can see some pattern, but it has minor influence for your gaming experiance (in 99% of cases).
Problem is with some strange spikes, which i've noticed, but unfortunately I didn't have enough time to check it better.

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Excellent. Glad to hear, and im sure a lot of people will be happy to hear that such is the case.

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Originally Posted by bedlamite

It's not much worse than single card. You can see some pattern, but it has minor influence for your gaming experiance (in 99% of cases).
Problem is with some strange spikes, which i've noticed, but unfortunately I didn't have enough time to check it better.

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I don't want to say you are wrong bedlamite, but did you actually manage to push the card below 40 fps to see traces of MS? As many people say, it's not noticeable at high fps, and you really have to throw a lot at a 4870x2 to get it below 40 fps.

Yes I did -.-

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Originally Posted by praesto

I don't want to say you are wrong bedlamite, but did you actually manage to push the card below 40 fps to see traces of MS? As many people say, it's not noticeable at high fps, and you really have to throw a lot at a 4870x2 to get it below 40 fps.

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If I was to buy a 4870x2 and force it to run at 40fps, I'd be better off using that money as toilet paper.

You're missing the point to me!

Targeting areas so when one has low GPU limited areas in scenes at times you know that your hardware will be smooth in these scenes. Does one believe their new card is going to offer 60 ideal frame-rate numbers for lows in every single title and scene for the next year or two? With future engines? Or an IQ setting you enjoy to use? What about adding adaptive technologies?........One expects to hit 60 ideal frames at all times here?

If a single GPU is smooth between 25-45 -- one would desire multi-GPU's to be.........this is something a gamer would desire instead of ignoring and mocking it. Hopefully it has been improved and the transition between multi-GPU and single GPU is much closer.

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Originally Posted by SirPAuly

You're missing the point to me!

Targeting areas so when one has low GPU limited areas in scenes at times you know that your hardware will be smooth in these scenes. Does one believe their new card is going to offer 60 ideal frame-rate numbers for lows in every single title and scene for the next year or two? With future engines? Or an IQ setting you enjoy to use? What about adding adaptive technologies?........One expects to hit 60 ideal frames at all times here?

If a single GPU is smooth between 25-45 -- one would desire multi-GPU's to be.........this is something a gamer would desire instead of ignoring and mocking it. Hopefully it has been improved and the transition between multi-GPU and single GPU is much closer.

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Crysis is the only problematic game.

Other than that, yes the HD 4870X2 should play most games coming till Summer of Next Year above 40FPS just fine, and at resolutions up to 1920x1200 w/ AA and AF. Don't come to me with Console ports or badly optimized games though, those will sark at any resolution.

Perkam

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Originally Posted by SirPAuly

What are your thoughts on micro-stuttering in general if you don't mind?

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My thoughts are that there are significant improvements in MS issues with the 4870X2 relative to the 3870X2, and we will find out more on August 12/14th or whenever launch is.

Perkam

Thank you! That's what I am hoping for!

Thanks goes to AnarchX:

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/682...f58ba4fvl7.jpg

Computer Base stuttering info: http://translate.google.com/translat...m_mikroruckler

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Originally Posted by jmke

Computer Base stuttering info: http://translate.google.com/translat...m_mikroruckler

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surprise, surprise. Nothing changed.

As long as afr is used nothing will change in this department. The only good thing is that the 4870x2 is so fast, that you push beyoned the 40fps region, and ms gets less noticed. :yepp:

Can I use two 2 x 3pin in the HD 4870 X2 ?

in my experience with Crysis/GRID, if you have an AVERAGE of 30fps in a game, you are bound to hit FPS dips which go low enough to be noticeable, and thus it will add only on to the effect.

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Can I use two 2 x 3pin in the HD 4870 X2 ?

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1x3-pin
1x4-pin

required:)

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Originally Posted by Hornet331

surprise, surprise. Nothing changed.

As long as afr is used nothing will change in this department. The only good thing is that the 4870x2 is so fast, that you push beyoned the 40fps region, and ms gets less noticed. :yepp:

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And that's the point.

On the 4870 X2, how many games are going to run at 35 FPS?

I imagine that in the future, eventually some games will.

I sitll get stutter in 3870x2's in DevilMayCry 4, @ 300FPS. Not one other person has come up with an example of microstutter such as this, and as such I remain quite skeptical that the problem has been solved, as I do not think anyone is testing properly.

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Originally Posted by zlojack

And that's the point.

On the 4870 X2, how many games are going to run at 35 FPS?

I imagine that in the future, eventually some games will.

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CRYSIS! :ROTF:

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Originally Posted by zlojack

And that's the point.

On the 4870 X2, how many games are going to run at 35 FPS?

I imagine that in the future, eventually some games will.

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just run current games at 1920x1200 @ 4aa and your already in the 60s-70s, next gen games will push this into the 40s. Tought the ammount of console ports will increase, so even a snigel 4870/280gtx will be enough. :yepp:

LOL, madshrimp says the exact opposite about Crysis with their setup.

Source

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At 1920x1200 we see a ~5fps drop for both cards, but numbers are still acceptably high. We did notice a lower min. FPS on the HD4870X2, suspecting that this was maybe due to micro-stuttering we manually measured the FPS with FRAPS in-game in the same Alien Spaceship level, but we didn’t notice any stuttering, the 23 fps drop was early on the level.

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TestBed from madshrimp review:
Intel Core 2 E8200 @ 2.66Ghz
Cooling Scythe Ninja 2
Mainboard MSI P45 Platinum
Memory 2 * OCZ 1Gb PC2-6400

Testbed computerbase:
Intel Core 2 Extreme QX9770 (overclocked by multiplier to 4 GHz quad-core)
Noctua NH-U12P Noctua NH-U12P
Asus P5E3 Deluxe WiFi-AP main board Intel X38, BIOS-Version: 1104 test for Crossfire systems
XFX nForce 790i Ultra (Nvidia nForce 790i, BIOS-Version: 811N1P01_Beta) für SLI-Systeme
2x 1024 MB G.Skill DDR3-1600 (7-7-7-18)
2x 1024 MB Patriot DDR3-1600 (7-7-7-18)

Clearly 2 different testbeds. Also, we know that stutter can be induced and can be the results of something other then the GPU. Another thing, these "stutter charts" have no legend nor does the creator explain how each plot on the chart is obtained. Making these type of charts vague. Leaving it up to the reader to make assumptions of how it was obtained or, some validating it without any rudimentary information of where the plots on the chart come from.

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Originally Posted by Calmatory

CRYSIS! :ROTF:

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:rofl:
I don't really care about Crysis. Been there, done that. (Ok, not totally true, I do look at the Crysis benchies, as well.)

Anyway, I too have my doubts about the microstuttering tests posted.

Very vague and by no means conclusive..

I definitely see microstutter on my 3870 X2, so I know it exists. In Age of Conan, for example, the nametags sort of blur when I'm moving but when you look closely you can see they are stuttering.

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Originally Posted by Hornet331

just run current games at 1920x1200 @ 4aa and your already in the 60s-70s, next gen games will push this into the 40s. Tought the ammount of console ports will increase, so even a snigel 4870/280gtx will be enough. :yepp:

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I can run my games on that res on my 3870 X2 and still get ok frames.

For me right now, I look at how a card does in Age of Conan (which is hell to bench on) and COD4.

Again, everyone looks at things from their point of view and based on their needs.

Considering I took this issue on full force, and now it's gone out of hand, and I see now people complaining of other problems, and calling it microstutter, I wish I could kill the beast I created!

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Originally Posted by cadaveca

Considering I took this issue on full force, and now it's gone out of hand, and I see now people complaining of other problems, and calling it microstutter, I wish I could kill the beast I created!

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I don't know what else to call what I see then. The screen looks "jittery".

Is that not a possible sign of micro-stutter?

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Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

LOL, madshrimp says the exact opposite about Crysis with their setup.

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yup, was eager to find out if microstutter would show; but several manual runthroughs later... no signs of it.

@zlojack: the stutter is as of the screen freezes a millisecond and you then jump forward in frames quickly, as if some frames were "cut out" of the animation. PCGameshardware has a few movies on these, check at the bottom of this page: http://www.pcgameshardware.de/?article_id=631668

they do miss the ball though on this movie: http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,6...on_HD_4870_X2/
the FPS is just way too low for fluent gameplay and they are mixing stutter with FPS dips

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Originally Posted by zlojack

I don't know what else to call what I see then. The screen looks "jittery".

Is that not a possible sign of micro-stutter?

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Nope. not if FPS is below monitor refresh....then the problem is something else.

Microstutter is exclusively:

high-framerates drawn, less displayed. You cannot measure Microstutter below monitor refresh..if your eyes are sensitive enough, you'll see issues at anything below monitor refresh, and it won't be due to the hardware design, it will most likely be software limitations.

people don't understand that the Crysis video I posted was with 60+++FPS, and they also seem to have neglected to read that the problem is @ 1280x1024, while 1680x1050 runs butter-smooth. The problem is evident only when framrate is above monitor refresh, and the system is obviously not gpu bottle-necked.

Like DevilMayCry4.... approx 300FPS, still stutter, @ 2560x1600. This is what happens when the crossfire connection is not capable of feeding rendered frames to the primary gpu...and does not show itself until the bandwidth of those rendered frames exceeds the bandwidth of the interconnect.

Anyone talknig about Microstutter @ 60FPS is just on the hypewagon, because it looked fun, but they do not know where teh wagon is headed...


Provides a good chance to see which reviewers are worth thier salt, and which are not, IMHO. I've yet had anyone contact me from online media asking about the issue...so I'm not too sure that they are even aware of what the problem is, nevermind that most don't have the hardware to properly create the issue.

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Originally Posted by zlojack

I don't know what else to call what I see then. The screen looks "jittery".

Is that not a possible sign of micro-stutter?

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Originally Posted by zlojack

...In Age of Conan, for example, the nametags sort of blur when I'm moving but when you look closely you can see they are stuttering...

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IMO, possible ghosting which is more LCD related then video card related.

start a 'jittery' thread :p:

micro-stutter shot jfk.

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Originally Posted by cadaveca

Nope. not if FPS is below monitor refresh....then the problem is something else.

Microstutter is exclusively:

high-framerates drawn, less displayed. You cannot measure Microstutter below monitor refresh..if your eyes are sensitive enough, you'll see issues at anything below monitor refresh, and it won't be due to the hardware design, it will most likely be software limitations.

people don't understand that the Crysis video I posted was with 60+++FPS, and they also seem to have neglected to read that the problem is @ 1280x1024, while 1680x1050 runs butter-smooth. The problem is evident only when framrate is above monitor refresh, and the system is obviously not gpu bottle-necked.

Like DevilMayCry4.... approx 300FPS, still stutter, @ 2560x1600. This is what happens when the crossfire connection is not capable of feeding rendered frames to the primary gpu...and does not show itself until the bandwidth of those rendered frames exceeds the bandwidth of the interconnect.

Anyone talknig about Microstutter @ 60FPS is just on the hypewagon, because it looked fun, but they do not know where teh wagon is headed...


Provides a good chance to see which reviewers are worth thier salt, and which are not, IMHO. I've yet had anyone contact me from online media asking about the issue...so I'm not too sure that they are even aware of what the problem is, nevermind that most don't have the hardware to properly create the issue.

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Thanks for the comprehensive response. :up:

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Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

IMO, possible ghosting which is more LCD related then video card related.

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Interesting. I'll have to check that.

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Originally Posted by adamsleath

start a 'jittery' thread :p:

micro-stutter shot jfk.

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I'm jittery this morning from the double espresso! Maybe that's the problem.

I knew I saw some weird framrates on the grassy knoll footage!

Microstuttering is the smallest problem in the history of problems.

You obviously dont own a SLI/CF solution then.

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Originally Posted by Cooperdale

Microstuttering is the smallest problem in the history of problems.

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thank you. :up:

To see what microstuttering really is, just try Test Drive Unlimited with 2x 7900GTX's in SLI like I had for a while back then...

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Originally Posted by Bo_Fox

To see what microstuttering really is, just try Test Drive Unlimited with 2x 7900GTX's in SLI like I had for a while back then...

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Works fine with 9800Gx2 also to se the same thing, or even better.

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Originally Posted by Aberration

You obviously dont own a SLI/CF solution then.

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I own a CF solution and I still have yet to see what all the fuss is about. I've even been purposely looking for it.

you won't see much, deathman, because of your vgas. I notice this problem more than most due to running 4 gpus...and the problem is almost completely solved for dual cards...but only because performacne is what it is.


But, to test, you must try singlecard, notice decent performance, and then enable second card, notice performance improvement FPS-wise, but onscreen display is worse than singlecard.


The problem can occur at any FPS number...so looking for it @ less than 40FPS is stupid. Trying to attain such is a waste of time. You will never be able to distinguish problems because of lack of v-sync.

Mcrostutter is LESS FPS DISPLAYED THAN DRAWN. the problem mostly stems from inter-gpu communication, and is why I see this problem far more than anyone else...4 GPUs create far more traffic than 2.

I'll shoot some video of DMC4 and show the problem above 200FPS. Not using FRAPS...which is a waste of time as well, but by setting up camera external to pc. The problem has NOTHING to do with FPS, other than FPS given by FRAPS or ingame counters does not jive with what's displayed onscreen.

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Originally Posted by E.R

Works fine with 9800Gx2 also to se the same thing, or even better.

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Perhaps the max frame rates were enough that microstuttering no longer really noticeable. Say, it runs at 70 fps, but microstuttering makes it more like 40 fps, which is still nice and fluid.

Well, with my 2x 7900GTX in SLI, Test Drive Unlimited ran at 35 fps, but the microstuttering was unacceptable. It actually looked more like 18-20fps. My 8800GTX on the other computer also ran it at around 40 fps, yet it felt solid.
(Now I have 8800GTX on both of my computers which have the same CPUs for equal performance.. I'm a retired SLi veteran.)

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Originally Posted by Cooperdale

Microstuttering is the smallest problem in the history of problems.

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Originally Posted by Aberration

You obviously dont own a SLI/CF solution then.

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Actually I owned both sli and cf, am about to build a new system with a 4870X2. I really don't think it is/was such a big issue. There are people who say it's there, people who say it's not. People who think it's there because something else is there. I really never noticed much of anything. Just an opinion of course.

For anyone who is still unclear what MS is about.
Low FPS = high delay between frames. High fps = low delay between frames.

For single card 60 FPS is 16.6 ms delay between two frames.
For dual card 120 FPS can be three frames during that 16.6 ms, BUT the delay between first and second frame is e.g. 2 ms, and then the delay between second and third frame can be 14.6 ms("fps" is 68.5 between second and third frame). In this case the increase in FPS would be unnoticeable. All that matters is the maximum delay between frames. High delay is called sttutering.

Single card: |----------|----------|---------|-----------|-------|--------|----------|----------|-----------|----------|---------|
Dual cards: |-|--------|--|------|----|--------|-----|---------|-|-------------||------------|--------------||---------------|-|
| presents new frame, and - presents delay between those frames. The longer the delay is, more the image stutters.
Single card has alot smoother delay between frames, whereas dual cards draw more frames but sometimes with higher delay between frames, thus more stuttering. Also differences between frames can be noticed. If you have 70 fps, it jumps to 40, then to 120, then to 30, then 120, then 30 and then 200, you will notice it even if you wouldn't consider 30 fps bad. For some this is bigger problen than for others. Some use v-sync to stabilize the fps to the monitor refresh rate to get rid of FPS jumping, while having lower average FPS.

i want to shed more light on micro stuttering. i run an SLI system and have had enough of this micro stuttering garbage so i decided to take footage of it for you guys. micro stuttering negates the higher fps achieved over the single card and makes me feel like this entire multi-gpu solution is a scam!

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeZmgb3eOBI

guys is it better to get 3 4870s or 1 4870x2 and 1 4870
i wanted to get 3 because it would add bling to the system but then again costing more!