Very nice!:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by 865pe
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Very nice!:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by 865pe
3155mhz :slobber:
i only can dream of that :stick:
Room temp 10c? man arent you getting a cold :exclaim:
I hate the dam 0550 vpmw's
Why you ask?
Because I have its little brother (0550 upmw) and mine craps at 2.8ish, and prime blend... Haaa whats that
^That went fine:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_at_Home
300x9 is no go though, BSOD while loading with 1.4v:( . Dunno if the mobo is having issues with 300, as 299 is happy so far.
I wish I could try 3.1 though.. damn:banana:
ok - got my chip!! Opty 175 CCBWE 0550UPMW
http://venus.walagata.com/w/agunn/My175.JPG
The default vcore came up at 1.29v. I was able to hold that vcore up until 2.53ghz... I am now dual priming at 1.37 vcore at 2.61ghz and 38c max temp... I ran 3dmark06 before that and got 7800! I'm going to prime here over night to help the AS5 to set then toss some more vcore and fsb at it tomorrow... I'm hoping for 2.8ghz... I am thinking I should be able to hit that with 1.50 vcore or so (+or- .02v)... I'll post screen shots later.. must eat now.. wow.. blood sugar bottoming out. ;)
Better than the one I have @ 2.6 (I'm dealing w/ that issue ASAP :D )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosophy
Just received mine.
Opteron 165 CCBWE 0550UPMW
Does that sounds good?
Edit: After some reading I would say yes. I'll try it tomorrow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 865pe
you have got to be freezing your A$$ off with 10C ambient
First, I want to welcome Lord KneeGrow to the forum. This is a great place to learn from, and I have found members to be generally quite supportive. Decent overclocks will come with time, if you follow the advice of the long time posters.
I started my new system up about a month ago, and it has definitely been a work in progress. When I first designed my new computer system, I expected an immediate and stable 2.6-2.7 GHz result out of the box. It didn't happen.
I struggled to hit 2500 MHz, and nothing I tried seemed to work. Then I took the time to read ALL of the posts on this thread, and got some really good information to try and work with.
I decided to remount my Zalman HSF to see if I could make it run better. Once I remounted my Zalman HS/fan with a THIN layer of AS5, I got a stable clock of 2600 MHz( 100 MHz over previous effort with no other changes).
I reread some material from here regarding voltage vs temp limits, and tried dropping the voltage a bit. This got me to a stable 2660 MHz (a gain of 60MHz). Unfortunately, I was noticing an undervolage issue with my Vantec Stealth 470W PSU, and although I ultimately hit a Prime 95 stable 2700 MHz, my voltages (particularly on 12 V+ rail) were all down significantly.
Before I went any further, I decided that I would have to replace my PSU. The OCZ Powerstream 600W PSU was the apple of my eye, but at the last minute I decided to go with one of the New Enermax Liberty 620W PSu's because of the modular cable design.
Yesterday, I replaced my PSU. My voltages went up significantly on all rails, and I was able to bump my OC to 2730 MHz Dual Prime 9 stable. In fact, as I sit right now, I am only using 1.325 V in BIOS (1.296 showing in Smart Guardian).
There was a sale on fan controllers at my favorite computer store, so I decided to throw one in and see if manually tuning the individual fan speeds would help. I was surprised at the big difference.
Before (with 1.350 V in BIOS) and 2700 MHz, I was hitting 46 C on CPU, 50 C on PWM, and 43 C on chipset under load with dual Prime 95 running (temps taken after appx 3 hrs).
Now, with 1.325 V in BIOS and 2740 MHz, I am hitting 37 C on CPU, 36 C on PWM, and 38 C on chipset under load with dual Prime 95 (temps taken after appx 7 hrs).
To say I am happy is an understatement:)
But even more good news. The new power supply is allowing my Muskin Redline memory to run tighter (and higher) than ever before. I am memtest stable to 262 MHz using 1:1 divider, and have timings working at 3-3-2-6.
I hope this info gives insight into the need to have a decent PSU and balancing/having adequate airflow. It made all the difference for me.
Now for a dumb question. I see everyone posting screen shots to show results, but I am unsure how to do this. Could someone walk through the process from capuring the image off the computer to posting it here?
Just hit [alt] and [Print Screen] and you have a screenshot saved in the clipbook, then open Windows Paint and paste it there.Quote:
Originally Posted by kberguy1
I prefer Quick Screenshot Maker though, has a bit more features and I can choose only parts of desktop and so on.
The best way is to use a little proggy called Irfanview, here is a link and a guide of how to use it here @ http://i4memory.com/showthread.php?t...ight=irfanviewQuote:
Originally Posted by kberguy1
Hey guys, Quick question. I have been outta the AMD HW scene for a bit, working on phase cooling projects and now doing rosetta, plus school so im kinda out of the loop.
So, what are the hot stepping DC opty's? I.E. the CABNE 0530 of today? I am looking to go dual core from my opty 148 and am unsure as to what is best. I have only really seen one stepping so far which is hte CCBWE's and they seems to vary alot...
Thanks for the help!
Brandon J
0550VPMW is the hot dual core stepping, akin to 0530APMW, however they are very coldbugged. Very good CPUs though, i run mine 24/7 at 3.15 Ghz on water. Most are still good for 2.9-3 Ghz with sufficient cooling. The scary thing is, many people have better 170s than me (glares at Clint).
*sigh*...I wish my opty could do 3.1 GHz :(
Me too :( , but when I get my phase from kayl it WILL do 3.1GHz :DQuote:
Originally Posted by K.I.T.T.
I just got a bulge in my pants :eek: :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by 865pe
My 170 is gonna be here today... hoping for the best :(
Does anybody know the best place to sell and buy processors? I'd like to get rid of this 0551 UPMW 165 and get a 0550 UPMW. My original plan was to upgrade, not downgrade from my old processor.
eBayQuote:
Originally Posted by r3w4
I got myself 3 165 0550 VPWM's a couple of days ago which I was chuffed about. I thought I must surely get over 2.8Ghz this time with one. I quickly tested all 3 and non of them will get to 2.8Ghz. None will do more than 2.65Ghz on stock volts even with mid 30's Deg temps which is ok but not great. Core 1 always bombs out on low volts then anything over 1.5v core 1 fails - proberbly heat related as it get around 50 deg. Im wondering whether theres something else in my system holding me back as these chips peak at almost the same as my other 2 165's 0551 UPMW & VPMW and it seems too much of a cooincidence 5 chips all maxing out 2.75-2.77Ghz.
Ive tried higher chipset & LDT voltages, lowered by HTL to 2x, lowered by ram divider. My room temp is quite low 15Deg. Could the bios be the problem, Ive tried Tony's 704-2bta & 623-2bta?
Wellllll... being that I hate IHS's I popped mine off last night.. yes, on a 2 hour old chip.. lol.. it worked, that's all I needed to know before I grabbed the box cutter and went to work... it litterally took 30 seconds.. maybe less... the glue was soft, and the box cutter only exposed just the corner tip of the blade, which was the pefect safe depth.. I made two passes and it came right off.. whew.. easiest one yet...
http://venus.walagata.com/thumbs/agunn_Poppedopty2.JPGhttp://venus.walagata.com/thumbs/agunn_Poppedopty1.JPG
Sooooooo.. that was fun... I burned in the cpu at 2.5ghz all night running dual prime at 1.29 vcore (default) and am now tossing some more FSB and vcore at it... I am testing at 2.75ghz with 1.47 vcore now.. yeah, sadly this does not appear to be one of the uber magic 0550UPMW's, but I'll hit 2.8 with it I am sure.. which is all I really "needed" to hit in my mind.. anything over that will just be icing on the cake... one important note is that my psu has been straining a lot, and it dips down to 11.67 on the 12v rail when I dual prime, so I have a new one on the way.. a much more powerful one.. Topower 750 with a 40 amp 600W 12v rail.. Topower makes psu's for OCZ and other high end companies.. I am hoping more stable 12v power will lower the amount of vcore I need to maintain an OC.. we'll see. :)
All I can find on ebay are 0551s, for obvious reasons. Since the 0550s are becoming rare, a new 3800 X2 may be the way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyK0t1c dRe4mZ
Dunno if this is allowable. Had to divide the Redline as it doesn't like 270 HT. Goes to 265 ok tho :)
This is on water with a Zern block
Its not prime stable but is usable. I didn't try benching as I'm not too comfortable with the volts, even though temps are ok.
2970:
http://upload.sysxtreme.com/0.X/0.681225/28secs.JPG
CPU-Z validation: http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=79703
Here's a prime stable one tho:
2.8GHz:
http://upload.sysxtreme.com/0.X/0.254925/2900opty.JPG
Load temps:
http://upload.sysxtreme.com/0.X/0.254925/2800water.JPG
CPU-Z validation: http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=78752
And a 3DMark score as I didn't get a screenie:
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm05=1877788
Devious - my guess is you've got a bottleneck somewhere else in your setup. Maybe RAM related? Seems like most 0550VPMWs will do 2.8. It is very unlikely that you would get three and none of them would perform well!
I would try putting one of your VPMWs in a friend's system to see what kine of clock you could get
good luck
still waiting on my peltiers, mail from canada is too slow :(
It seems almost every dual core Opteron has one core that is stronger than the other. My strong core is core 0, which would probably hit 2900 MHz on air if it had it proper match. However, core 1 has started crapping out on me at anything over 2800 MHz.
I have tried more volts (up to 1.425), and things get worse. I have tried less volts (down to 1.300), and things get worse. I thought perhaps it was a memory issue, so I dropped down to a 12 divider, and that didn't help.
So, I have decided to burn in core 1 using a "CPU Burn in" application. Now the question is which one? I am looking for a software pkg that allows me to designate one core or the other, and I can't seem to find one.
I heard CPU Burn was a good program, but I don't see how I can set just one core.
Is there anything out there that will do the job? Please help!:confused:
Use task manager to assign a core
right click tool/quick launch bar > Task Manager > Processes
:)
Air cooling.. Default vcore 1.312@2800mhz VPMW ;)
Very good result, 865pe
I literally hate you guys with VPMWs now, I got an 0543TPMW and it barely does 2.8 @ 1.55v
My 0551 barely does 2.6 @ 1.55V after burn in so I hate everyone. I heard AMD will raise prices soon so that would probably be a good time to sell this black sheep.Quote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
Well, mine is for sale if anyone's interested. 2800 is good enough for most people, just not for me. I want 3ghz and I want it now!
You better go with a 170 or 175 if you want that. I just need an average 2.85 GHz and I'll be happy.
Holding off for a Conroe may be a good plan now. Nice move AMD, releasing processors that only overclock a pathetic 50%. You're practically telling us to buy Intel.
I hope to god that was sarcasm :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by r3w4
2800 at 1.4v or less? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
A lot of people are between Opteron and Conroe for dual core. Increasing prices and decreasing quality isn't very encouraging. They may just be trying to sell X2s better though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Repoman
Mine seems to be happy with 1.5v @ 2907 MHz. Been priming large FFTs for about 45 minutes now and no problems so far. Temps are 39*C under load. Befre anything under 1.52v would cause core0 to crap out in 5 minutes :)
It seams that this vpmw's are very stressed when testing mem ctrl. Anyone noticed that?
Mine can dual-prime small ffts with 1.46V (12h+) but for large ffts or custom (8-4096, with large ffts in place /15min) it needs bump to 1.5V. And 2GB are even more stressing than 1GB.
Well, i'm still :banana: with my 3Ghz duale ..
Well current LDBHE 06xx X2's are going down in price, and doing better than a lot of opties on air and water, not to mention phase. I'd jump on one of those if I didn't already have an awesome opty ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by r3w4
PS just got all my watercooling stuff in my case, but I'm going away for the weekend so I will fill and leaktest on monday! :D
I sold my CCBWE 0551 UPMW two days ago and I am going to get CCB1EQuote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
0550 VPMW next week.
Mine UPMW did 2.75 -same as yours :)
Welcome to the club of CCB1E owners :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by famich
May the OC gods be with you:D
Id go buy one, IF I COULD FIND ONE! Does anyone know where I can get my paws on an unused VPMW? Or on that is known to go to 3ghz????
You and me both bud. :slap:Quote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
Ohh man, I feel ya.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
I've seen you everywhere looking for that stepping, and here comes another one.:p:
I ran CPU Burn for about 6 hrs on my weak core on my Opty 170 0550 UPMW last night. Temperatures in Smart Guardian never got above 37 C at CPU.
I started running Dual Prime 95 at 2740 MHz with 1.350 V, and it failed almost
immediately! Note that I had done 2780 MHz for 4+ hrs with no problem before.
My new "stable" Prime 95 appears to be somewhere around 2670MHz with 1.350 Vcore(2 hrs stable so far). My load temps today are:CPU 42C, PWM 44C, and Chipset 39 C. If I try to bump up FSB, it fails. If I try to raise Vcore, it fails:mad:
I thought burning in the CPU would help, but now it is worse:confused:
Have I somehow damaged my CPU, or am I just missing something?
Should I try a different HSF (Currently using Zalman CNPS9500)?
Options for new HSF include: Thermaltake Big Typhoon, Thermalright XP90C with Vantec Tornado fan, Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro, Gigabyte G-Power Cooler Pro, or Scythe Ninja with 120 mm fan.
http://search.ebay.com/search/search...170&category0=Quote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
EDIT: wow - there were about 10 0550vpmw sales on thursday but I guess word got around fast about those.. whew. there's one upmw which looks like a good OCer.. anyways.. ebay or the FSFT forums are your best bet to get a good OCer..
I am in the same canoe as you (all) with 0550upmw's which barely get to 2.8 with max comfortable vcore... and I even spent the extra $100 for a 175.. silly! I think I might get 2.8 with 1.6 but not sure it's worth the extra vcore... right now I can do 2.75 @ 1.52... anything lower core0 bombs within 10 mins... I even popped the IHS on this one in the hope of adding a little extra UMMMPH to it's OC.. no dice.. it does run cooler tho.. :) I dunno... I had high hopes for 2.8ghz with medium vcore.. I guess I can live with 2.75.. but I feel dissapointed whenever I sit down at my desk now. lol. I should be happy I got this far, but oh well.. that's the spoiled hardware brat in me I guess... I think I might sell this one, or sell my 3ghz 3700 and grab a vpmw off good ol ebay.. :)
Is that delidded 170 worth buyin? 2.9 @ 1.4 seems pretty good. I just want 3ghz.
Wellllllllll - it's always a gamble buying something someone else says is a good OCer.. variances in mobo's voltage regulation and power supply voltage regulation.. etc.. might make a difference.. but I'd say at 1st glance this is the best easy to get potentially very good OCer chip within arms reach of you atm... or anyone.. the other option is open a thread on the forsale/fortrade forum stating you want to buy a 0550vpmw, etc... hardforums and anandtech have good and active selling/trading forums.. good luck to you! :)
As it sits right now, my Opty 170 0550 UPMW has failed dual Prime 95 at 2670MHz (after about 4 hrs):( I am retrying at 2650 MHz, and expect it will be fine there.
Part of me is upset that I slipped back a bit on my OC. With others achieving higher overclocks, it is tempting to push things a bit. But from what I have read, getting 2600+ MHz from an Opty 170 UPMW is a GOOD result, and I am doing it with 1.325 V in BIOS:D
So I have nothing to complain about. This processor is probably a good candidate for water cooling, and once I get my video cards, I may try that.
For now, I will wait for advice before going further. I will try a different HSF come payday to see if I can get back past 2700 MHz again, but if that fails, I am done.
Yea, do have a thread open here, at H and at AT.
Steppings to look for on the 170?
I have seen a lot of numbers thrown around
0550 UPMW <- has really good and really bad CPUs
0550 VPMW <- best
0546 XPMW <- get 2.85-2.9 average
0530 TPMW <- not quite sure what to tell ya here, was the favorite before the 0550's
THX, Clint, Im going to see, how this 170 s gonna go,Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint
do hope, that it ll be a little bit better than 0551 UPMW ;)
yes, and may the Force be with us all .... :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
seen this on ebay :
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-AMD-Opteron-...QQcmdZViewItem
0546 XPMW :)
and the seller is really good
DONT buy there!
Buy from dave, he has 2x @ $430 shipped.
flickerdown.com
Anyone Here using ballistix ??
I got A Opteron 165 but i think it hates my memory. Cpu douse 2.6 @ 1.35v not a verry good one. Because it will not to 2.650 @ 1.35 and its ramping voltage after that. Maxed out @ 2700 1.52v.
Maybe i should get a new 4400+ VPMW. Opterons dont go well with me A8R32-MVP. Max v-core is 1.55 with opterons. A64 X2 can get up to 1.65.
That 165 is better than many.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astennu
Yeah dude, CCB1E 0550VPMW is a sick 165. The culprit to th ebad voltage scaling is more likely to be your mobo/PSU.
'Ve anyone got results from clocking an Opty 165 with this stepping:
CCBWE 0604TPMW
Anyone knows if this is a decent stepping?
Even 0550 VPMW's must have a few "duds" though, wouldn't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute_0
Not really, most that dont clock high have been issues related to something else, mobo limitation, heat, psu, ram etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aversio
Oh man, now I just want one all the more. Thanks alot! :slapass: :stick:
Just got my 170 0551 UPMW.
Tried same settings as my 146@2900 and it booted into Windows but Prime crashed.
Tried same setting but@2800 and it Primes both cores 100% stable. 2800 so far... going to dual prime all night and see what happens.:D
Boy are those duallies hot.... needed to actively cool down the PWMIC..
I know, now you know where I am :slobber:
Yeah - I tossed an old case fan blowing on my pwmic last night... it was still going to 60c today in the afternoon heat.. gah!Quote:
Originally Posted by Badge56
my opty `65 CCBWE 0551VPMW is stable at 2.7 @ 1.525 volts, i didnt try lower vcore yet tho.
Exactly what mine did, seems to be the 165 average.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red.Sky
looks like my 0550UPMW is topping out at 2750 with 1.525v... 2.8 is doable with 1.6v... but it gets really warm.. even with watercooling.. during the heat of the day it was hitting 47c load... I guess that's not too bad, but I am used to 43c TOPS in the afternoon...
I might try 280 x 10 with a divider and see if that changes anything.. who knows... a little dissappointed... but oh well.
EDIT: I will likely sell this chip off, for a good deal also, along with my 3700 which does 3ghz and I will be on the hunt for a 3ghz dually . . . but after I get back from my travels, beginning of April.. maybe I'll get one for my B-day... w00t.
It'll be a tough hunt, good luck... along with me
I'd be happier if I had only bought a 165 which topped out where mine did. lol. I feel a little silly going for the 175 now.. but the 11x multi is nice... I can run my memory @ 1:1 now.. :) There will be chips out there for sale, I am not worried about not finding one at all, just when...
EDIT: in other news.. my new psu added 40mhz to my 7800GTX memory overclock.. I can hit 1390 now stable w00t.
i'd buy someones Opteron 170 CCB1E 0550 VPMW
wouldnt we all?Quote:
Originally Posted by noktekniq
my 0550 upmw isnt great either itll do 2880 low volts but prime is killing me.. core 1 fails after a few secs
Here is what my Opteron 170 is doing today.
[img=http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/982/my1stsp2004shot1rn.th.jpg]
I hope to improve on it, but will let things run to 24 hrs with dual SP2004 before I post again.
I got a Asus A8R32-MVP And A Coolermaster 550 Watt psu. Should be enough ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute_0
Took my old venice for a spin but its much better already. Booted 290 mhz x 4 Htt. The Opteron 165 only did 250 max. Its also locking op @ a v-dimm of 2.85. I'll test the venice with my ballistix soon. It did 280 Mhz with those modules on a DFi Ultra D NF4. And the opteron could to 250 max. Its realy a weak one on the HTT and the MC side.
Is your LDT multi at 3x? Remember that LDT multi * FSB should not be more than 1000. Less is ok :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Astennu
PS: your avatar resembles mine a bit ;)
I just won ben805's old 170 on ebay.
0550UPMW, 2.9ghz @ 1.4v... heh $475 shipped. Not too bad.
I know that of the HTT speed. But its for Nforce 4 and Xpres 200 users. I plugged in my Old Venice. And it did a blistering 280 HTT @ 5x mult !!!.Quote:
Originally Posted by K.I.T.T.
Tis opteron only handles like 230 X5. My venice did 270 1:1 mem @ 5x htt mult.
Opteron cant handle 270 1:1 @ 3x htt. Max stable = 260 @ 3x. So both the MC and HTT bus are not clockable.
I think i'm gonna sell it and look for a new X2 3800+. the 4400+ Are to expencive here. 305 for the 3800 and 370 for the 4400. Cant get any 165/170 opty's here in the nederlands.
And about the avatar. Its indeed the same picture only edited with photoshop :)
So it was you that drove the price up. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
Congrats on finding a good chip!
where would i be able to get a nice 0550 VPMW? opteron 170 preferred?
That's a million dollar question my friend :)Quote:
Originally Posted by noktekniq
doubt u will sell ursQuote:
Originally Posted by TheMeatFrog
Nope not anytime soon. Anyways you wouldn't want mine, it's kind of weak compared to some of the other ones out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by noktekniq
lol, was I competing with you? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Aversio
No. I went to bed without ever placing a bid. But I thought it was going to sell for more than it did. I guess I should have bid!Quote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
Oh well, I'm happy for you. Plus, now you can help me find a VPMW. :)
I'll do what I can for ya m8.
I dont think bidding would go any higher without the IHS :cool:
Ah well, you can tell why my other 170 needs to sell, quite an expense to get an ub3r one. Still not sure if im nuts to pay $75 more for 200mhz :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
How much?
Hey anyone know anything about
0550upmw?
Ah well, not sure XS mods like discussing sales outside the sale forum...
If this crosses the line just deleteme mods, dont want to disobey any rules.
Im asking $395 shipped.
200mhz more being 3ghz, Im gonna bump volts up til i hit 3.0
0550UPMW is up and down, I just bought one that does 2.9 @ 1.4v, but some cant even hit 2.8 @ 1.55.
What did you get with your other opty?
2.73ghz is definitly stable @ 1.5v for me. Havent tested extensivly above that.
1.425 for 2625 or so
the last 2 0550VPMW's that I have ordered were from ebay...
Enclosed is my first full dual SP2004 24 hr stress test. I hope to do better over next 24 hrs, but it is probably a faor representation of what many UPMW 170's are doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by phelan1777
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/548...shot9qt.th.jpg
Any insights or advice would be appreciated.
Thanx
Anoyne know of peeps using the 180-185, and if they got any OC's out of it, as I ahve seen 0 mention of them.
Basically the only difference between 17-180 is where they start out, they all top out at about the same place.Quote:
Originally Posted by phelan1777
heh.. you bought the ebay one? nice.. I was eyeballing it.. but had a feeling you were on it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
yea, I was ALL OVER it ;)
Nice! well be sure to let us know how easy it glides to 3ghz... and beyond :) (hopefully)
I have been running benches all day and my new opty has given me a decent gaming performance boost... not as much as I had hoped, but I will take it.. I guess I was a little spoiled with my 3ghz sandie ... a tough act to follow. ;)
Well I did some more testing on my new 170. Tried lowering VC to 1.5 and X to 282.... failled Prime95..
Back to 280 ( 2800 ) and VC 1.558 (100% stable)
I did up my RAM from 166 to 180 ( 253mhz )... Nice and stable. Heat is under control.
Just one question about those drivers (AMD & MS). All whent well and system feels stable. When I reboot It stops after windows screen. I must remove registry entry to be able to boot into Windows.
How can I be sure that my dual-core is running as it should be. Is there a test?:slap:
I dunno, I havent used ANY patches at all and i have no issues.