The official GT300/Fermi Thread

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Originally Posted by Marios

Liquid CO2

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yes, its possible to cool with liquid co2, so what?
nobody does it, cause it doesnt make sense...
and you certainly cant cool 7 cards sitting right next to each other in a case with liquid co2... to run folding@home... thats just beyond ridiculous!

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Originally Posted by Chumbucket843

fermi was there. they demoed an nbody simulation on it. they even said the silicon was a few days old. i am guessing you didnt watch it.

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right, they fly press from all over the world to show them their new gpu... and then dont show it...

but the DO have it! i saw an ihs with its code name written on it!
and i saw some flashy animations on a big screen that were run on it...

just like rumsfeld had proof of saddams weapons of mass destruction...
i saw tons of satellite pictures and documents and videos! :P

im not saying nvidia didnt have working gt300 at gtc... what im saying is, there is no proof... it would have been possible to do the entire show they did without even having finished the gt300 design concepts and having no silicon whatsoever... as such, the entire event was a failure and waste of money imo... they didnt show a gt300 wafer, they didnt show a gt300 chip, they didnt show a real gt300 card, they didnt show a real gt300 card in action...

back on topic, and back to reality...
3-4 weeks until gt300 is supposed to be available in retail...
still no signs of it, nothing...
none of the usual suspects is even hinting that he already received a sample or hinting at the performance...

shops usually get cards just days before the launch, sometimes a week or two... distributors usually have cards 1-2 weeks before launch, card makers have them 2-3 weeks before launch... so evga, xfx, asus, gigabyte etc "should" all receive their gt300 cards this week or next... lets see :D

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Originally Posted by Marios

I mean, even though I don't believe FahMan is using fermis, it still is a mystery what he is folding on and I cannot exclude a slight probability he is actually folding on fermis.

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First time I found out Santa wasn't real, I was livid.

Parental Units: Ummm, you know Santa Claus is only make believe, right? We think you are old enough to...

Me: Noooooooooooo!!!!! You are lying! He is REAL!! *slams bedroom door*


When nV gets some working Fermis out, they will run GPU2 clients on them.

It's really not that hard to believe they showed early silicon running a fairly simple (or at least short) demo at GDC. I'm not going to go through the arguments of why, because honestly that's a waste of time. But I think people here are being skeptical for the sake of being skeptical.

While I agree with you on that's probable they had some early silicon able to run when the press event took place, the fact is that they didn't show any kind of proof. I mean, yes, they showed one. One which was proven false...

I think people is being skeptical because they haven't been shown any more than a bunch of gimmicks: a whitepaper by here, a mock-up by there (presented as if it was a real working card)... some people is starting to feel tricked, and so they are willing to be skeptical.

Anyway, I think that the point is not in having actual silicon working, but cards. They didn't even have a single card for their CEO to show to the public in the event, and there are 7 on the hands of some folk out by there? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by saaya

yes, its possible to cool with liquid co2, so what?
nobody does it, cause it doesnt make sense...
and you certainly cant cool 7 cards sitting right next to each other in a case with liquid co2... to run folding@home... thats just beyond ridiculous!

...

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I have good experience with triple SLI 8800GTX overclocked and quad SLI on air. Even though I have no experience with more cards, I find it very difficult to believe CO2 is not enough. Liquid CO2 is very cheap. I believe it makes sense to refill a liquid CO2 tank every five days when we need to run 7 overclocked cards 24/7. We are not talking about extreme overclocking 7 cards for 24/7 folding here.

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Originally Posted by Marios

I have good experience with triple SLI 8800GTX overclocked and quad SLI on air. Even though I have no experience with more cards, I find it very difficult to believe CO2 is not enough. Liquid CO2 is very cheap. I believe it makes sense to refill a liquid CO2 tank every five days when we need to run 7 overclocked cards 24/7. We are not talking about extreme overclocking 7 cards for 24/7 folding here.

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While it is not *impossible* to do, consider:
1. The amount of heat output generated by 7 overclocked cards + CPU is quite high. This will result in a very high burnoff rate for the liquid CO2. Whether a single tank is enough for 5 days (5 days!) is debatable since it all comes down to compression and cylinder size, but it would be a fair amount of CO2 required, which brings us to;
2. Unlike the air you have used to cool your cards, the exhaust from his rig is able to render a man unconscious in a number of seconds and kill him in just a bit longer. There are ways of dealing with this as well via ducting to outdoors, but this just adds in to how elaborate the setup has to be. Again, not impossible... but given he made a single post claim on a random Internet forum, let's not give him too much credit, shall we?

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Originally Posted by Serra

While it is not *impossible* to do, consider:
1. The amount of heat output generated by 7 overclocked cards + CPU is quite high. This will result in a very high burnoff rate for the liquid CO2. Whether a single tank is enough for 5 days (5 days!) is debatable since it all comes down to compression and cylinder size, but it would be a fair amount of CO2 required, which brings us to;
2. Unlike the air you have used to cool your cards, the exhaust from his rig is able to render a man unconscious in a number of seconds and kill him in just a bit longer. There are ways of dealing with this as well via ducting to outdoors, but this just adds in to how elaborate the setup has to be. Again, not impossible... but given he made a single post claim on a random Internet forum, let's not give him too much credit, shall we?

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maybe the guy was high off CO2?

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Originally Posted by Marios

He also gave us a hint that we need to create 16 clients to fold with fermi.
Is this correct? How did he know?

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Who says he knows and didn't pull the numbers out of some place where the sun doesn't shine? ;)

There's still no objective reason to believe his statements were true. Why should NVIDIA give cards out of hand, even when they are "old" silicon? It's not like they got hundreds of working parts...

The only possibility (imho) would be fahman works for NVIDIA and they tested folding on the cards. But would NVIDIA test with extreme cooling methods? I don't think so! Would NVIDIA do it without letting the world know how kickass Fermi is at folding? I don't think so!

Just my 0.02 Euro-cents.

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Originally Posted by Cybercat

It's really not that hard to believe they showed early silicon running a fairly simple (or at least short) demo at GDC. I'm not going to go through the arguments of why, because honestly that's a waste of time. But I think people here are being skeptical for the sake of being skeptical.

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i totally agree, kinda like intels lrb demo...
but they didnt... they "supposedly" ran very taxing gpgpu apps and saw almost 2 digit fold increases in performance... for that to happen gt300 has to be fully functional, gpgpu uses all of the gpus resources, more than when you play a game most likely...

about being sceptic towards what nvidia claims... well it doesnt exactly help that they held up a fake card and lied to everybody out... ;)

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Originally Posted by Marios

I have good experience with triple SLI 8800GTX overclocked and quad SLI on air. Even though I have no experience with more cards, I find it very difficult to believe CO2 is not enough. Liquid CO2 is very cheap. I believe it makes sense to refill a liquid CO2 tank every five days when we need to run 7 overclocked cards 24/7. We are not talking about extreme overclocking 7 cards for 24/7 folding here.

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good experience as in heating your room?
as in flickering stuttering crashing game sessions? :P
and dont get me wrong, crossfire isnt any better either... and yes its useful if you need to get the fps up at high resolutions or in a demanding game... but you DONT want more than one gpu if you CAN play the game with one gpu at the same or almost same settings... thats at least my experience...

but what does that have to do with cooling 7 cards inside a case with liquid co2 from an external container that you refill every now and then... oh please... kinda like a watercooling loop but with liquid co2? thats a retarded idea... you can get the same effect by using chilled water, and guess what, thats what everybody in the industry does... thats how super computers are killed and thats how amd (ive seen the machine myself) and most likely intel and others as well cool very hot chips when running tests and thats how they cool them when doing thermal tests and power tests of some chips.

really, trust me... whoever came up with this 7 liquid liquid c02 cooled fermi cards running f@h thing there is a) mocking people desperate for gt300 infos b) desperate for gt300 himself and doesnt know what hes talking about

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Originally Posted by FischOderAal

But would NVIDIA test with extreme cooling methods?

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as far as i know they do ;)
they had at least 2 cascades and used them to test their chips...
nvidia was the first chip maker to test their stuff on subzero and make sure they dont have coldbugs and scale properly... at the same time or even before ati, and long ago before amd...

its possible they use liquid co2 cooling, but unlikely...
and think about this, a cascade keeping a 200W+ gpu at -100C is going to need quite some juice, my guess is around 800W+ (fuggers tripple stage pulls up to 2000W iirc?), and its not a small cube either... now think about cooling 7 cards... and you get an idea of how ridiculous this is...
and while i can totally imagine nvidia testing gt300 running f@h on it, im sure they do it actually, its unlikely they do it with supercooling, and its completely ridiculous to think theyd do it with 7 cards in one rig... why would they do that? what for? how does it stress the card in any special way to have 7 in one rig? it actually stresses them less if anything cause there is a bigger lag from the cpu assigning them work and there is less pciE bandwidth per card to send and receive data... and if theyd want to test 7 cards to make sure it works fine, why would they supercool them? for what? so they can brag on some enthusiast forum about having a bigger e-penis... yeah right :rolleyes:

enough with this 7 liquid co2 cooled fermi cards running f@h already! lets move on please :P

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Originally Posted by Cybercat

It's really not that hard to believe they showed early silicon running a fairly simple (or at least short) demo at GDC. I'm not going to go through the arguments of why, because honestly that's a waste of time. But I think people here are being skeptical for the sake of being skeptical.

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People are skeptical because Jensen tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, not hard to understand why people are suspicious and don't trust Nvidia right now.

I'll wait and see, and I'll be optimistic about it. What do I have to lose? Nothing, zero. Why? Well maybe because I can run most games without any problems, and maybe because the 5870 won't just disappear, and maybe because I might end up getting the 5870 for cheaper then I'll get one right now.

We cry because Nvidia showed a fake card. Shame. Somehow I think we're in for a big surprise. But if it doesn't happen, what do I actually lose? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by VoodooProphetII

I'll wait and see, and I'll be optimistic about it. What do I have to lose? Nothing, zero. Why? Well maybe because I can run most games without any problems, and maybe because the 5870 won't just disappear, and maybe because I might end up getting the 5870 for cheaper then I'll get one right now.

We cry because Nvidia showed a fake card. Shame. Somehow I think we're in for a big surprise. But if it doesn't happen, what do I actually lose? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Just my 2 cents.

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QFT

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Originally Posted by VoodooProphetII

I'll wait and see, and I'll be optimistic about it. What do I have to lose? Nothing, zero. Why? Well maybe because I can run most games without any problems, and maybe because the 5870 won't just disappear, and maybe because I might end up getting the 5870 for cheaper then I'll get one right now.

We cry because Nvidia showed a fake card. Shame. Somehow I think we're in for a big surprise. But if it doesn't happen, what do I actually lose? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Just my 2 cents.

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+1 to first bit

2nd bit is soso yeah fake card etc.. but they been very arrogant and made some questionable decisions also ... but meh ... I hope we are in for a big surprise tho...

tbh though im always quite pessimistic with hardware as i always seem to get my expectations met or a bit above the,... even then you say you think we are in for a big surprise.. and if we arnt your gonna be a bit like uh... what a joke lol :D

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Originally Posted by saaya

as far as i know they do ;)
they had at least 2 cascades and used them to test their chips...
nvidia was the first chip maker to test their stuff on subzero and make sure they dont have coldbugs and scale properly... at the same time or even before ati, and long ago before amd...

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Really? Didn't know that before :) Danke!

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Originally Posted by Jamesrt2004

+1 to first bit

2nd bit is soso yeah fake card etc.. but they been very arrogant and made some questionable decisions also ... but meh ... I hope we are in for a big surprise tho...

tbh though im always quite pessimistic with hardware as i always seem to get my expectations met or a bit above the,... even then you say you think we are in for a big surprise.. and if we arnt your gonna be a bit like uh... what a joke lol :D

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it seems like the fermi speculation has been nothing but negativity. all the fonbois are saying it uses 300 watts, it wont come out until sept 2010, it will cost $700, the 5870x2 will destroy it, and the funniest one of all 2% yields.

evergreen rumors: its 2x faster and it will be $250! then people start understanding gpu architectures and their need for bandwidth. gt300 will have ~240 GB/s compared to 150GB/s with rv870. i think this will be a great gpu and too close to the 5870x2 for ATi to be comfortable. its just a matter of time. once nvidia launches this then its clear sailing. especially in hpc market with insane margins and great per/watt. i am also very excited for larrabee. i read a whitepaper that said a 16 core 1ghz larrabee is 1.5x faster than a gtx280. that could put a 32 core 1.5GHz larrabee ahead of gf100!cant seem to find the paper now though.

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Originally Posted by eleeter

People are skeptical because Jensen tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, not hard to understand why people are suspicious and don't trust Nvidia right now.

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The only "people" who are skeptical or suspicious right now are the small % of the market who are the the bleeding edge enthusiasts.

The main marketshare target couldnt even tell you what the hell a "Fermi" is, or who Jensen is.

I am guessing it will come down to benchmarks and pricing, not what happened at an event months earlier.

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Originally Posted by Chumbucket843

evergreen rumors: its 2x faster and it will be $250!

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Rumours of the 5870x2 being $250? Or are you talking about something else?

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once nvidia launches this then its clear sailing. especially in hpc market with insane margins and great per/watt.

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It will only be clear sailing when Nvidia has a top to bottom DX11 lineup to counter AMD. And the HPC market is a tiny slice of revenue for Nvidia. Yes it has potential, but that won't happen overnight.

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Originally Posted by OCguy

The only "people" who are skeptical or suspicious right now are the small % of the market who are the the bleeding edge enthusiasts.

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Isn't that most everyone on this forum?

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The main marketshare target couldnt even tell you what the hell a "Fermi" is, or who Jensen is.

I am guessing it will come down to benchmarks and pricing, not what happened at an event months earlier.

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Okay. :shrug:

so this card is going to hard launch within a month ? and we have no info ? lulz.

Can't make cards without chips ;)

We had little hard info on the 5870 before it launched.

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Originally Posted by orangekiwii

We had little hard info on the 5870 before it launched.

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What's the point answering to explicit flamebaits? Let that guy and his mockery alone, he knows it best.

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Originally Posted by VoodooProphetII

We cry because Nvidia showed a fake card. Shame. Somehow I think we're in for a big surprise. But if it doesn't happen, what do I actually lose? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Just my 2 cents.

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whos crying? cant speak for others but me, no, im laughing! :D

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Originally Posted by FischOderAal

Really? Didn't know that before :) Danke!

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well at least thats what i heard, but i trust that guy 100% :)
oh wait i just remembered, a technical nvidia guy at the nvidia apac HQ here in taipei confirmed that to me when i visited them with shamino a while back...

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Originally Posted by OCguy

The only "people" who are skeptical or suspicious right now are the small % of the market who are the the bleeding edge enthusiasts.

The main marketshare target couldnt even tell you what the hell a "Fermi" is, or who Jensen is.

I am guessing it will come down to benchmarks and pricing, not what happened at an event months earlier.

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true, to most people and to nvidia themselves actually, itll only matter how gt300 cut down parts perform... cause thats what they will make some real money with... but you cant have cut down mainstream gt300 parts without gt300... thats the thing :/

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Originally Posted by Luka_Aveiro

What's the point answering to explicit flamebaits? Let that guy and his mockery alone, he knows it best.

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hows it a flame bait?
we did have infos about 5870 before launch... we knew thered be rv840 and rv870 and later some even further cut down chips. we saw wafers of rv840 at computex, months before it launched, we saw pics of the cards months before they launched as well... amd did live demos with REAL rv840 cards months before the launch, actually i think they had that at computex already... and they had rv870 demos behind closed doors as well back then i heard...

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Originally Posted by Chumbucket843

it seems like the fermi speculation has been nothing but negativity. all the fonbois are saying it uses 300 watts, it wont come out until sept 2010, it will cost $700, the 5870x2 will destroy it, and the funniest one of all 2% yields.

evergreen rumors: its 2x faster and it will be $250! then people start understanding gpu architectures and their need for bandwidth. gt300 will have ~240 GB/s compared to 150GB/s with rv870. i think this will be a great gpu and too close to the 5870x2 for ATi to be comfortable. its just a matter of time. once nvidia launches this then its clear sailing. especially in hpc market with insane margins and great per/watt. i am also very excited for larrabee. i read a whitepaper that said a 16 core 1ghz larrabee is 1.5x faster than a gtx280. that could put a 32 core 1.5GHz larrabee ahead of gf100!cant seem to find the paper now though.

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All fonbois said all that about GF100? Generalizations...

Anyways, not sure where you think you read about 16core Larabee @ 1ghz being faster than GTX280... Certainly not at gaming since they will need 32-64cores on the final product.

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Originally Posted by saaya

i totally agree, kinda like intels lrb demo...
but they didnt... they "supposedly" ran very taxing gpgpu apps and saw almost 2 digit fold increases in performance... for that to happen gt300 has to be fully functional, gpgpu uses all of the gpus resources, more than when you play a game most likely...

about being sceptic towards what nvidia claims... well it doesnt exactly help that they held up a fake card and lied to everybody out... ;)

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It was closer to a 5x increase, and it's very possible they had to disable some TPCs to get it running.