2 Stage Autocascade

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Originally Posted by kayl

thats magic cryo-tek.
can you do a basic drawing of the hxs.
i got some copper tubing today and thinking i want to make a hx similar to that.

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IIRC, he uses a mandrel to bend the tube in shell hx's. ;)

You guys are great! I have been playing with autocascades for years and my friends just roll their eyes when I start talking about them. No interest at all! zero, zip, nata!!

Now I have found a place where there are other people who enjoy playing with cascades and you think creatively. I was amazed when I found the thread with the cold heads. Everything from heads built with a drill and file to CMC turned. Creativity at its finest !!


This 2 stage autocascade project started with an old Missimer environmental test chamber that I found in the back of a paper converters shop. Must be from the 60s, it is all old school relays and controls. It had a 2 stage cascade with two 1 H.P. compressors. They were the first things to hit the trash.
The rebuild is designed around a 1 H.P. condensing unit. The liquid receiver became an expansion tank to lower the head pressure during the initial cool down. This also helps to keep the warm static pressure down. The compressor didn’t like starting when the static pressure was over 120psi.

I wanted to precool the cascade before the load from the box was applied so a solenoid valve was installed at the inlet of the final captube. It’s located low so that the discharge refrigerant flow from the second cascade is all downhill through the valve to the captube. The valve is a sporland A3S1. The A3F1 would have been nice but it has a nylon seat and it leaked past when cold. The A3S1 has a metal seat.

Captubes are easy,:confused: A one H.P. needs a total flow of around 1.787. I threw 60% at the CC1. 20% at cc2 and 20% at the evap.

OOPS! got to go, dinner is burning! I hate the smell of hotdogs burning on a hot discharge line:eek:

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Originally Posted by cryo-tek

Captubes are easy,:confused:

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Speak for yourself :p:

s7e9h3n, Thanks for answering the questions. I have a problem with your unit, I said that I would give you -120c I was wrong........you have -141c. Is this OK ?:banana:

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Originally Posted by cryo-tek

s7e9h3n, Thanks for answering the questions. I have a problem with your unit, I said that I would give you -120c I was wrong........you have -141c. Is this OK ?:banana:

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I guess I can deal with it :p: Time for me to start a new thread as I'm guessing you're about to be bombarded with questions that could take a couple of pages to answer ;) That's just insane :toast:

P.S. Nice blurry pic by the way :D

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Originally Posted by s7e9h3n

I guess I can deal with it :p: Time for me to start a new thread as I'm guessing you're about to be bombarded with questions that could take a couple of pages to answer ;) That's just insane :toast:

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I'm just having fun !! :)

cryo-tek may i ask what is cooling your Aux condensor?
I only understand taht You have condense part of the mix in your normal condensor then it travels to this aux condensor and that is where i am curious. I know what is cooling your cc1 and cc2 but not your aux condensor. And may i ask if there are Co2 autoc in the industry?

This is good:toast:
Awesome temps there Cyro:)

@Stephen...It will tame prescot:)

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Originally Posted by cryo-tek

I'm just having fun !! :)

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Have fun fielding questions :D

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...66#post1413666

You, my friend, ARE THE MAN :toast:

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Originally Posted by Nyx

cryo-tek may i ask what is cooling your Aux condensor?
I only understand taht You have condense part of the mix in your normal condensor then it travels to this aux condensor and that is where i am curious. I know what is cooling your cc1 and cc2 but not your aux condensor. And may i ask if there are Co2 autoc in the industry?

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Hyx, The suction refrigerant that comes out of CC1 is still very cold and it would be a waist to just dump it into the compressor. Is it is used to cool the discharge refrigerant before it gets to the first separation point.

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Originally Posted by s7e9h3n

IIRC, he uses a mandrel to bend the tube in shell hx's. ;)

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thanxs s7e9h3n. bending that by hand would be a mission.


Cryo-tek im interested in what the purpose of r123 in your autocascades.
Looking at pressure charts I see that it boils at only 27c ? but it has a molecular mass of 153g/mol so it has the potential to remove a large amount of heat.
Do it mix with either of the other gasses to give that refrigerant a lower boiling point or just used to help first stage cascade condenser??

Would using butane achieve a similar effect in a hydrocarbon autocascade??
Ie r600/r290/r170/r1150/r50

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Originally Posted by kayl

thanxs s7e9h3n. bending that by hand would be a mission.


Cryo-tek im interested in what the purpose of r123 in your autocascades.
Looking at pressure charts I see that it boils at only 27c ? but it has a molecular mass of 153g/mol so it has the potential to remove a large amount of heat.
Do it mix with either of the other gasses to give that refrigerant a lower boiling point or just used to help first stage cascade condenser??

Would using butane achieve a similar effect in a hydrocarbon autocascade??
Ie r600/r290/r170/r1150/r50

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Maybe to faciliate oil moving? Just wondering.

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Originally Posted by jinu117

Maybe to faciliate oil moving? Just wondering.

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Actually Kayl's got it...If I understood Cryo correctly, it's used as a first stage gas due to it's ability to move such large amounts of heat @ a high boiling point....

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Originally Posted by s7e9h3n

Actually Kayl's got it...If I understood Cryo correctly, it's used as a first stage gas due to it's ability to move such large amounts of heat @ a high boiling point....

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funny thing though it boils above the average room temp?? and would be close to the temp of the condenser out temp??

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Originally Posted by kayl

funny thing though it boils above the average room temp?? and would be close to the temp of the condenser out temp??

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hmmm sounds like the oil idea is more correct... it makes alot of sense actually, how do we fix our oil issues? add a gas that doesnt evaporate into the system to carry it all the way through. then when it runs to the aux HX (i think its an SLHX, im just guessing though) it finnaly biols off in the last step of the system.

I am completly guessing though i am the biggest noob to post in this thread so far.

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Originally Posted by cryo-tek

Captubes are easy,:confused: A one H.P. needs a total flow of around 1.787. I threw 60% at the CC1. 20% at cc2 and 20% at the evap.

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humm sorry Cryo, but is there some table, formulas or some more information on how to do this calculations available?

like a book or internet webpage... :D

Hey cryo is there any chance you could answer this question. Just im planning my auto cascade and are wanting to know which way to flow my auxiliary condenser and the cascade condenser. Is flow direction important to stick to the traditional way /
ie cc1 cc2 and coaxial hx
ie evap entering the bottom, suction leaving the top of each stage coil stage condenser
with the high stage entering top of the coil condenser and exiting bottom.
i cant confirm but it looks like one of the cc's flows high stage entering bottom??
I follow this diagram but trying to picture direction of flows of the real thing?

Also the ratio size of each stage compared to the others, ie are c1 c2 and the axillary condensers all the same length. o


http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7808/cryo11nv.jpg
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...5&d=1145658788

I,m the one who questioned cryo-tec knowledge, as he never posted anything but auto cascade designs, even that he was asked to post pictures or answerers to very specific questions. Those design drawings have been available for 15 years or more. He did post the above picture of his work, the one above using fiberglass insulation. That told me he knew very little about thermodynamics or cooling in general. As moisture will pass right thru the fiberglass insulation.A professional working in cryogenic cooling would not do work like that,especially since it would be so detrimental to the outcome,you would lose much of your capacity. It sure doesn't look like the work from a professional to me.

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Originally Posted by wdrzal

I,m the one who questioned cryo-tec knowledge, as he never posted anything but auto cascade designs, even that he was asked to post pictures or answerers to very specific questions. Those design drawings have been available for 15 years or more. He did post the above picture of his work, the one above using fiberglass insulation. That told me he knew very little about thermodynamics or cooling in general. As moisture will pass right thru the fiberglass insulation.A professional working in cryogenic cooling would not do work like that,especially since it would be so detrimental to the outcome,you would lose much of your capacity. It sure doesn't look like the work from a professional to me.

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thats becuase you have good blinders on and missed a rather logical explination as to why he chose to use it, IE fast to get rid of to make mods then replace with new. All so comenly knowen as winging it for a fast prototype.

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Originally Posted by wdrzal

I,m the one who questioned cryo-tec knowledge, as he never posted anything but auto cascade designs, even that he was asked to post pictures or answerers to very specific questions. Those design drawings have been available for 15 years or more. He did post the above picture of his work, the one above using fiberglass insulation. That told me he knew very little about thermodynamics or cooling in general. As moisture will pass right thru the fiberglass insulation.A professional working in cryogenic cooling would not do work like that,especially since it would be so detrimental to the outcome,you would lose much of your capacity. It sure doesn't look like the work from a professional to me.

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Actually:

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Originally Posted by cryo-tek

I guess its best to test in fiberglass before foaming. I hope this works! the pictures that is:confused:

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He makes his work good, s7e9h3n can confirm his awesome job (are you jealous?) ! You always say the same and we all know it... I think 90% of the forum don't interest for you boring safety drivel! A lot more people want to know who to build a working autocascade... if you are so clever tell us how to do!

Please stop posting such stupid posts in conjunction with cyro-tek....

What insulation would you use if you perhaps must work there later? -.-

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Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony

thats becuase you have good blinders on and missed a rather logical explination as to why he chose to use it, IE fast to get rid of to make mods then replace with new. All so comenly knowen as winging it for a fast prototype.

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professionals Don't "Wing it" it is designed on paper(or CAD now days) & built ,fiberglass insulation will do more to harm to the unit than nothing at all,as moisture passes right thru and it will freeze to a solid block of ice. someone who is a specialist in cryogenic cooling would know that, you'd have to be pretty dumb not to know that about insulation.:stick:

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Originally Posted by wdrzal

professionals Don't "Wing it" it is designed on paper(or CAD now days) & built ,fiberglass insulation will do more to harm to the unit than nothing at all,as moisture passes right thru and it will freeze to a solid block of ice. someone who is a specialist in cryogenic cooling would know that, you'd have to be pretty dumb not to know that about insulation.:stick:

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So you're basically saying that to test the unit, he should have cast it all in foam, and then had he found a problem he would have to completely remove all the foam? Considering the fiberglass was just for testing, I hardly see a problem with it. That's like saying "I don't know if this compressor works or not. Instead of turning it on for a second or two without it plumbed into a system, then changing the oil afterwards if it works, I'll just completely build a unit and then test it when it's all finished!".

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Originally Posted by Moc

He makes his work good, s7e9h3n can confirm his awesome job (are you jealous?) ! You always say the same and we all know it... I think 90% of the forum don't interest for you boring safety drivel! A lot more people want to know who to build a working autocascade... if you are so clever tell us how to do!

Please stop posting such stupid posts in conjunction with cyro-tek....

What insulation would you use if you perhaps must work there later? -.-

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I have a lot of very technical information that would move the forum forward, but as long as their are guys who think their is no danger and do sub-standard work, and MOC,k safety MOC, I will not give out designs that are even more complex and potentially more dangerous if not built will ALL the safety devices as designed.

So if everyone starts taking safety seriously I may be inclined to release some info,keep in mind a few of my current design may have commercial value, so there may be a underlying reason not to release the design, I figured out how to condense R23 at ambient temperature 72f at a very reasonable pressure of under 250 psi. Single compressor,single gas.

I have quit a few more ideas also. Even that I have a very large inventory and a complete metal shop to build cases and paint room to paint them,I don't try to sell anything here on XS,as I want the younger members who work hard and many are getting introduced into running a business for their first time to make the profit.

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Originally Posted by Carlz0r

Actually:

Thanks for bringing up a 7 month old thread to essentially flame someone, by the way.

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I brought up the thread my mistake,I went back to grab that pic with the fiberglass insulation then posted there in stead in the new thread as I intended to. you can see I made the same post there also.

AS to testing, Engineers do their design on paper or CAD,enough is know about how every elbow,bend(depending on radius)and length of pipe affect friction,thus mass flow and pressure. If it does not work on paper it Will not work in real life. To you think pro's go to a job with a tractor trailer load of parts and keep switching out parts until the find a combination that works.Thats what I keep telling you guys ,these forums only touch on less than 1% of the informant ion you need to know.

I did not attack cryo personally, only questioned the information he provided and his work looked sub-standard for a cryogenic pro. Pythagoras and I ask for more pics of his work several time but he never provided any or anything other than 15 year old or older designs that can be found anywhere.

carlez the dumb comment in post 72 answers your question in post 73.