I also have the Enermax 365, a 350W PSU with 18A on the +12V, I have an X800XL 256M, Winchester 3000+ clocked 250 MHz (2250 MHz) at 1.5 V and 1 GB RAM at 3.1 V, no sweat at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens
I also have the Enermax 365, a 350W PSU with 18A on the +12V, I have an X800XL 256M, Winchester 3000+ clocked 250 MHz (2250 MHz) at 1.5 V and 1 GB RAM at 3.1 V, no sweat at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens
W00t! Just tried the 4V jumper and it is working :) 3'45V seems stable by now. I should put an aditional fan to the mosfets, true?
Added a fan, pushed to 3'7v.... and voilá! :D
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=16110
Doing a bit better at 2900 MHz! Very stable. :clap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pjotr
Do you have power going into the card? My BFG has no on board connector. Will plugging a molex into the MB suffice?
Where ever there is a place to plug power I use it! :D
No, it doesn't have it. nVidia boards are more power hungry. If the graphics card has a molex connector, yes, use it!Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens
Yeah, you have a point there mate, and I tried talking on dfi-street.com about this subject, but they give no chance at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Many PSU manufacturers are doing refreshed versions of their 1.3 ATX PSUs just with the extra 4 wires and the PCI-Express connector, to meet the "new" standard.
I agree a good PSU, even 20-pin, if it meets the power requirements in each line, you should have no problems. The extra 4 wires wont give any extra power, they are phisically, eletricaly connected together, in paralell.
My PSU, i.e, there is a "new" model ATX 2.0 compliant, guess what, its the same thing with the PCI-e connector + the 4 extra wires.
The reason to have 4 more wires is to match a standard, and I believe there is much theorectical stuff about how much current each wire can take, but in normal situations no wire would exceed it capacity, so the extra 4 wires are just useless.
As a matter of fact, I tried my self connecting an adapter, and the voltages are absolutelly the same, the wires dont get hot.
To all on this thread:
I don't think I've ever seen the kind of "self justification" that appears on this thread anywhere else. Its shocking to see how hard everyone wants to debunk or disprove the need to use a 24 pin pin PSU with the DFI mobo even though the manufacturer clearly requires it!
Angry Games may have been a bit nasty on his post, but I can certainly understand why. He also has to watch all this nonsense posted about why a 24 pin PSU is not needed. It must be frustrating for him.
If DFI calls for a 24 pin PSU requirement, well, there it is folks. Simple as that. I've never spoken with anyone on DFI Street, but I have had plenty of conversations with the folks at DFI. The 24 pin requirement is an engineering mandate pure and simple. So, either use what's required, or you will get ZERO support.
What many of you are failing to understand is that for every person on here that claims to have a 20 pin PSU "working fine," there is someone else out there with troubles that are caused by the use of a 20 pin PSU.
DFI has the requirement for a reason. Abide by it for best results, or skimp and face the possbility of PSU related issues. Its that simple. Its not a black or white issue that 24 pins work, while 20 pins do not. Its simply an unsupported configuration using a 20 pin.
Finally, I understand where DFI Street is coming from on another related note. I've completely given up on answering ANY DFI trouble posts from users with 20 pin PSUs. Its simply a waste of my time. In the first few weeks alone after the DFI NF4 arrived I had seen dozens of problems cured by going to the required PSU. But, months later now, there is no excuse when the common knowledge is out there. Don't get me wrong, sometimes its not the PSU causing the problems. But, when you are trouble shooting, there is nothing more frustrating than a user who refused to use the required supporting components. It utterly kills the process of elimination.
So, if you are using a 20 pin PSU without issue, good for you and congrats. But, if you are having stability issues with your DFI NF4 the FIRST thing to determine is that you are running the required PSU. If you wish to ignore the requirement when you are having problems, than you are only getting what you asked for.
@mdzcpa,
For the most part I would agree with what you say...
If I were building totally new rig from a scratch, then I would definetely buy 24-pin PSU, like PC P&C SLI or OCZ Powerstream. But some folks here, including myself, still have great PSUs from previous builds, e.g. PC P&C Deluxe 510W or even Fortron 530W (some might not disagree with me on that, I'm sure). That is additional $100-200 savings in your pocket.
Every mobo manufacturer will tell you same thing: It is recomended/required to use 24-pin PSU with ANY PCIe mainboard. Why? Because ATX2.01 standard is mainly all about:
1. Extra four pins (3.3v/5v/12v/GROUND). This is replacing 6-pin AUXliary connector that still exists in some of the PSUs, that was required on some (mostly) Intel boards and which purpose was to supply extra juice for AGP slot. Extra pins are to supply mainboard with enough current to power up PCIe port (75W requirement per PCIe specifications).
2. Providing more than 18A on 12v rail by either raising amperage on one rail or adding second rail for that purpose.
So, If one has strong, great performing 20-pin PSU that outputs min. 30A on 12v then I strongly believe one should have no problems with running NF4 mobo.
Considering, that all power hungry PCIe video cards use additional power connector, it makes it even easier for people with 20-pin supplies to stay with it until they make bigger upgrade.
What, in your opinion, are those xtra molex and FDD connectors onboard for??? Doesn't that give you any hint? It gives me on... I wrote about it some post above.
Also, honestly I think that AndyOCZ was wrong with his justification for 20-pin causing damage to memory sticks. If the guy has some super crappy PSU, then I could discuss that further, but damaged due to 20-pin PSU... Come on, gimme a break :)
Concluding... Get 24-pin PSU if you have money or building new rig from the scratch. But if on the tight budget but with excellent 20-pin PSU from previous built, it should make no harm.
I will swallow that if my 20-pin PC P&C or Fortron 530W burns any of the components... But I kind of don't see it happening :)
regards,
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdzcpa
I would agree with you 100% I also think if you are having stability issues or any issues and have a 20 pin it would be right on top of the list to get a 24 pin power supply. In fact it still is even with no issues. But untill then I will run with no problems. I wanted to see how many others had no problems and also hear from any that had hardware damage from running a 20 pin.
I also know that AMD will only warrenty there cpu if it has there fan and heatsink on it! Will not many of us use there cooling. If you had a ATI x800pro you should never flash to a ati x800 xt platinum bios but! You Should never unlock the multi on the XPs! Shall I go on??
If I was doing trouble shooting with these boards I would most likley say the same thing however with a bit more respect for my customers but thats a diffrent issue. I wanted feedback from users!
I completely agree :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
I just wanted to add this has NOTHING to do with Angry Games post. I would have the same policy if I were working for DFI.
But we all know we do things here that are not always the manufactures best wishes. I posted here because the discussion was no longer allowed there. I have been a mod at ABIT and I totaly understand that. Nothing against DFI or thier forum! I also know that many 20 pins dont have the guts to run this board. What concerned me the most was a post about damage to the memory or CPU if a 20 pin was used. It did not make sence so I came here! :cool:
Although I do not dispute your fine analysis of the new ATX spec, suffice it to say that my opinion is based soley on what DFI told me about the board when I was acquiring a review sample, AND what they further told me after I had a board of my own and was analyzing how it reacted with various PSUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
Not only do you have to take into account what the differences are in the ATX spec, but you must also take into account how the DFI board itself specifically handles the power supply. Trace lengths, capacitance, and voltage regulation on that board is optimised for a 24 pin PSU. I'm not an electrical engineer so I can only repeat what I have heard.
But, I will make one thing clear, the requirement for 24 pin PSU is an engineering requirement based not only on the new spec, but on actual board design as well.
Again, we're not talking about a fixed pass/fail issue here. We are talking about optimal configuration. The board was designed to work best with the 24 pin PSU and it goes beyond rail amperage and wattage.
Although I can only rely on what the DFI folks have told me, I do know that they are VERY adament about it. They have no motivation whatsoever to lie about it. Obviously a new PSU requirement hurt sales, not help. Think about it.
Power delivery and trace length...period. When running significant CPU and PCI-E slot power hungry components, the connections provided a cleaner localized power source. Nothing more, nothing less.Quote:
What, in your opinion, are those xtra molex and FDD connectors onboard for???
Per DFI, these connections have nothing to do with supplementing 20 pin PSUs. Its about trace length.
Quote:
Also, honestly I think that AndyOCZ was wrong with his justification for 20-pin causing damage to memory sticks. If the guy has some super crappy PSU, then I could discuss that further, but damaged due to 20-pin PSU... Come on, gimme a break :)
I whole heartedly agree. I completely discount any theory that damage would result from the use of a 20 pin PSU. The only issue is potential instability with crappy 20 pin PSUs, or stability issues when the mobo is loaded out with Ultra's in SLI, fan headers used, PCI slots used, etc.
Quote:
Concluding... Get 24-pin PSU if you have money or building new rig from the scratch. But if on the tight budget but with excellent 20-pin PSU from previous built, it should make no harm.
No harm...agreed. But you might be leaving some overclocking stability on the table depending on the configuration. Your BEST chance for max performance is with 24 pins....per DFI themselves.
I certainly do not condone Angry Games' tone of that post. I only understand the frustration. After speaking directly with DFI many times on this issue, I was told by a rep that thier support crew is just tired of "fighting" customers who claim to have stability issues but refuse to get a new PSU.Quote:
Originally Posted by thesaucier
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesaucier
I think your post is great and this topic needs to be aired out for all to see. I also think DFI Street is making a mistake by being so negative about it.
But, the bottom line is the the manufacturer spec calls for a 24 pin PSU....period. So, you either run what's required, or you are on your own. DFI Street needs to just keep explaining that. They are in the customer service business so that's just the way it is.
Your post here is appreciated !
24pin psu out of the box and this ultra-d never fail to run @ extreme oc or stock :toast:
I also absolutely understand where DFI is coming from.
Lots of users not really knowing what they're doing, buying low quality, low wattage PSUs, trying to run 2 Ultras in SLI and crying because their DFI NF4 board is not stable @ 2.7GHz and DDR600 :rolleyes:. I would be fed up with them too :lol:
I just decided to add my :2cents: after I read that thread on DFI Street, with the all "histeria" started by AndyOCZ, then closed by Angry Games' a bit too harsh voice of frustration.
Anyway, it's always great to read your wise advice Mike :toast:
I got too admit I know how frustating things can get. I feel for them! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
I've accepted the fact that I will likely have to get a new PS when I add my 2nd 6800 GT. But just as it was posted earlier - I have a 450W SilenX PS that I simply love! It is dead silent and it runs like a champ with everything in my sig. I will plug that 2nd card in and cross my fingers - but at the first hiccup I'll order the PCP&C 510 Sli and some earplugs. I'd still like to know if anyone is running SLI / 6800 GT's and a ~450W PS with a 24 pin adapter. :(
Thank you sir, just trying to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by bachus_anonym
I'm no DFI cheerleader or anything, I just know that of all the vendors I have dealt with over the years when it comes down to answering tough questions on review product, the folks at DFI have consistently been very forthcoming and helpful.
I also wouldn't advise anyone to junk a perfectly good high quality 20 pin PSU either. I'd say "try it out" and see what happens. If overclocking goals are reached and the system is stable...all is well. Its only time to jump to the 24 if your pushing the envelope or have other stability issues with the 20 pin. So your advice is also right on target :toast:
I am using 20-pin Antec TrueControl 550. See my results in San Diego OC thread.
Many many great 24pin PSU's are just 20pin + extra 4 pins added from the same lines, just as bachus_anonym and some others already said. This applies to the PCP&C 510W SLI as well (notice that PCP&C will rewire your existing 20pin PSU (vanilla 510W for example) to a 510W SLI model for a $50 charge), which indicates the PSU doesn't actually conform with the ATX2.0 standard (dfi-street.com had a hefty discussion on that "conforms" or "is compliant" stuff as well). Yet it is even in the nVidia SLI certified list.
Or take the OCZ Powerstream 520W which is not an ATX2.0 PSU as well but is considered to be a fine PSU to run with DFI. This leads me to believe that the "absolute must of a 24pin" is a bit too harsh stressed because I've not seen any documented explanation whether such a 24pin PSU (which is essentially a 20pin one) is worse than a 24pin ATX2.0 PSU with split +12v rails when used with the DFI motherboard. The dfi-street.com guys for the most part have avoided this discussion by simply using their main weapon "24pin PSU is a must" to bring down any questions on this subject (but I understand the behaviour if a user with a crappy 350W 20pin asks "why do I have trouble"?) However, if it is the case that many "24pin" PSU's are considered to be fine, this means a quality 20pin PSU should work without any problems except maybe the most extreme cases where the PSU complete power itself would be challenged (and I don't see 300htt or 2.6 Ghz CPU as an extreme overclock especially if you're not running SLI).
So this comes down to trying and isolating the cause of instabilities, and if they persist (by swapping memory, cpu's, maybe even motherboards), it's worth looking into your quality 20pin PSU direction, just as mdzcpa said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlobber
This is what I thought as well. Will it good to get this feedback. Next stop 3.4 vdimm! :clap:
3.3GHz SP8M stable and 3GHz StressPrime2004 stable 2h with 20pin Antec TC, nothing difference with 24pin PSU ;)
A64 3500+ 130nm CAA2C Cpu and VapoChill LS