creatives next audigy will probably be pcie anyway. all i can say if ati included the above features they would sell out immmmmmediatly.
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creatives next audigy will probably be pcie anyway. all i can say if ati included the above features they would sell out immmmmmediatly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobalt
Dude...you're totally NOT getting our point.
The POINT is that the LESS CRAP we have in a board design, the better.
The how's and why's as to how it's worked out are not our concern. This thread is for us to voice our opinions...and YES, the reps DO listen.
If they didn't care/listen, then some of the top OCers wouldn't be practically sponsored and getting turned into hardware whores from all the free loot they get to "test."
i wanna be a top OC'er, except i'm going to college for civil engineering and not mechanical, which is what i would most likely need to design my own cascade.
maybe i can pick up some stuff in my free time, but i think its only going to be water chillers for me :(
what about a pre-built water tube that goes along all the mosfets, northbridge etc. so that you can watercool them all? Also I want ALL plastic parts on the mobo UV-reactive, DFI forgot the 3pin fan connectors on the UT 250GB
And please don't leave out the floppy connector because you need it to install RAID drivers when installing windows!
So what do we have it narrowed down to now?
I think so far it's:
-2v+ vcore
-3.3v+ vdimm (preferably derived from 5v rail)
-a BIOS that lets you accurately change anything you could possibly want (and that isn't buggy or unstable)
-at least two pci slots
-reliable ports on back of motherboard (and none of the legacy ports that we all disable anyway)
-at least two USB ports on the mobo, only one firewire port needed
-no wasted money on Windows overclocking utils unless they work at least as well as the BIOS
-a single floppy connector (because they're still needed sometimes)
-onboard sound comparable to nVidia Soundstorm
-RAID (a lower-end version without RAID might be nice for people who don't need that feature and want to save some money)
-passive (fanless) cooling of motherboard components because tiny whining fans die quickly
-lots of room around the socket for huge heat sinks
-chipset positioning that will allow for a large heat sink without interfering with a large video card heat sink
-adequate spacing between video card slot(s) and pci slots
-no overvoltage protection
-power and reset buttons built onto the board (like Shuttle AN50R and DFI LanpartyUT)
I think most people don't really care that much about looks, but it can't hurt to make board look nice if it won't jack the price up.
This is a cool thread. Thanks for taking the time to listen to us, Grayskull! :toast:
EDIT: I think onboard 10/100 LAN would also be nice, but that's pretty much a given these days.
you forgot serial attached scsi :D trust me you will thank me when you get yourself a 15K rpm cheetah, better yet 2, in raid 0.
As far as the liability issue goes, have 2 sets of voltage options in the BIOS. The first (default) set of options would be limited to something like 1.7V CPU and 2.8V DIMM or so. Have the ability (Expert mode or the like) to switch to secondary voltage options that ramp up to 2V CPU and 4V DIMM. Also have some sort of notice when changing to the second set about the end user liability. Of course you want quality components capability of handling these voltages, but a simple warning when switching to non-default voltage settings should take the liability away from the mobo makers. That way, the clueless end user won't just accidentally set his VCore to 1.9V and fry the CPU.
Personally, this is what I would want:
-SATA ports grouped together, and designations showing which are the native ports, and which are not. Of course 0,1,0+1 RAID.
-Floppy port
-2x IDE (4 devices)
-Possibly enabling DC in the BIOS, so you have the room to say use DIMM slot 1&2 in DC and slot #4 for something like an OCZ DDR Booster that needs slot #3 for it's heatsinks, etc.
-At least 2V CPU and 3.7V DIMM, 4V DIMM would be nice. As mentioned, DIMM taken from 5.0V rail.
-2 USB ports and 0 firewire ports, with PCI slot card for additional 2 USB ports and 1 firewire port.
-Soundstorm quality onboard sound, otherwise nothing.
-No OVP
-No cluttering around the socket like the LGA 775 boards, i.e. plenty of room for heatsinks
-Full range of memory timings, with 2 sets of auto settings... 1 for basic auto and 1 for advanced auto (cas, tras, trpd, trc specifyable), as well as a full manual mode.
-Heatsinks for the components that get really hot under large voltage loads, mainly the MOSFETs, PLL chips, etc.
-No windows OC utilities, it's a waste of money when the BIOS does everything we could need. The only viable windows based OC utilities are ones that have the full range of options the same as the BIOS, else they are useless. Talk about liability... catering to people who don't know how to OC is just asking for trouble.
-No bling. It's a PCB with a bunch of jumbled capacitors, etc., it isn't supposed to be pretty.
-If possible, place the chipset in an area that can afford to have a 3" tall heatsink on top of it.
-DIMM fan mounting bracket (detachable), to make it easy to mount something like a 60-80mm fan over the DIMMs without some sort of ghetto rigging, or a wind tunnel type contraption that you could attach a 60mm fan to channel wind over the DIMM slots.
No, I clearly understand your point that the less crap the better for overclockers. I was just saying that its not in the best interest of ATI to introduce a board that has nothing on it because not many will be sold. While I agree on somethings that are not needed (seriel ports parallel ports ps2) many overclockers still want and need many onboard features that motherboard makers include. THe people who want nothing on the motherboard make up such a tiny amount of the market that im sure ATI is not going to introduce a board with nothing, even if the reps listen. ATI is about making money; not pleasing extreme overclockers that number less than 200. Its just not in their best interest to make a board that has no features so we can achieve a bit more performance. In the past, we haven't asked for such things. With some motherboard manufacturers, we asked for more voltage options etc... but we did not ask them to design a board totally for our liking. I'm sorry if you cannot understand my point, but ATI is not going to release a board specifically for less than 200 people. They will make $2000 (9.3x10-7% of their $2.14 billion revenue) if they sell 100 boards at 20$ profit; if they make a board with features and good overclocking, they could sell many MANY more boards and make much more money.Quote:
Originally Posted by hollywood
this man has a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torin
I agree in all points with you Kobalt!
Things which are really NOT necessary:
Parallel Port
Serial Port
Edit: Onboard Sound
I think a lot of guys are still using a PS/2 Mouse, because PS/2 is faster than USB and doesn't put as much load on the cpu.
There aren't many thinks which shouldn't be on a board.
OnBoard sound is crap in my opinion, because you often heare a whistling in the background which really sucks. So leave this away too and for shure no onboard Graphic card ;) The real ATI Cards are still the bests!
2 PCI slots are too less, don't you think, too?
Many guys have a:
1. Raid Controller
2. Sound card
3. Network card
So there shouldn't be less than 3 PCI-Slots!!
Ati really won't make a board only for overclockers, it will have alot of features for overclocking and a great design, but won't be without any onboard features.
Doing a search on USB vs PS/2 mouse refresh rates I found default USB refresh rate is 125Hz and, of course, ps2 is configurable to 200Hz, but the 125Hz limitation is from windows drivers, not the USB interface; that even with USB 1.1, mice can be configured to 1000Hz in Linux. USB 2.0 implementations are said to be less flaky. There are hexedit howto's and pre-done binaries to up the default limit of the windows drivers and 'gaming' mice that are sold which replace the drivers with higher refresh settings, so, USB is faster, but as mentioned, PS/2 uses fewer cpu cycles. For benchmarking sake, either would do, since you're not messing with the mouse during the benchmark run, unless USB uses more cycles than PS/2 even when idle. How much of a hit USB causes at 1KHz, or any other rate, is still a question since I didn't find an answer to that in the search. I suppose you can file this in the "perhaps more than you wanted to know" department:)
go check out the pc games part of this forum and you will see a 500hz tweak for the usb port.
@ kobalt, I don't understand your guess of 200 overclockers potentially buying a board. :confused: It's got to be in the thousands, or 10s of thousands, at least. ;)
Not to rehash what has been said because I like the explanations people gave, but a list of my own is another vote for what I like:
1.9 vcore is sufficiant. with 90nm it is insanity to use more, and the hardcore would actually be slightly disappointed to never break out an iron.
vdimm should go to 3.8. There are many ddr's that thrive with high vcore. bh5, tccd, eb, and vx to name the obvious. forget liability, that is up to the ram companies. and us. people will still break stuff modding, and by doing stupid stuff with bios options. you could be asus and take the fun out, but then you would not have many of us interested.
stable power is a must, as said. ram should obviously be off of 5v.
would it be impossible to include the mounting holes for socket A style coolers? this would leave the option of MANY more cooling solutions. also I like the dimm fan cooling bracket idea. didnt abit do this one? for mosfet cooling, toss in some small sinks like epox. they will find thier way to what needs em, even some vid card ramchips! abit's OTES is a good idea that takes very little work on ati's part. jsut a cheap plastic shroud, and a a small fan that will have plently of room out the back when you take out the serial/parallel ports ;)
agree with everyone that plenty of room around cpu is a must - and dont keep the cpu socket too low near pci-x slot, it would be hard to mount phasechange.
though I would gladly omit it, onboard sound is a must, but keep it to minimal overhead so it does not hurt overclocking or stability. audiophiles/gamers/overclockers wont be using it, and the rest wont know the difference between soundstorm and ac97.
foget the floppy - I have personally seen over a dozen floppies die, jusr die. give us a 16mb usb keychain with ati on it, and we'll all wear them proudly.
PCIx16 slots should have ample room in between - if you cant mount at least a dangerden maze4-1 to each, or at least the maze4, then that's no good. it also hurts ati's own ability to use 2slot coolers if that becomes necessary.
clear cmos jumper should work. shouldnt ever have to pop battery, pop bios, or do voodoo ritual to get a post.
well guess I liedm but this is a fun excercise. I think that you all over at Ati realize that guys over here not only represent the fervent who will snap up the best clockers, but that untold people follow our lead. rest assured that if there is a buzz here, that buzz will filter around quickly, plus, each of us probably controls the hardware buying decisions of a half dozen people or more. I know I do.
finallly, when compromizes are necessarym always error on the side of perforamance expectations. we will forgive a whole lot of quirks - even work on independant solutions for them, if the speed is there. if it isnt, then no one will bother.
I can't wait. I only buy ATI for my rigs, even in situations like this summer where some claimed nv40 was the be all of chips. I didn't buy into that and I'm glad I didnt. companies like OCZ and DFI pull a lot of weight in this community because they make top performing gear, and in return they get loyalty and good pub. ATI vid cards already have that, and I know we cant wait for the chipsets.
oh yes, and an agp version please, vid cards got real expensive. :D
btw, has anyone else raised an eyebrow at the statement that the HTT capability of the chipset is way beyond ddr? quite a challenge! :stick:
DevilsRejection – Regarding integrated Ethernet, ATI has decided that integration of Ethernet into the SB is not a very good idea. Large OEMs agree with us for reasons that I won’t go in to. Some of the other chipset vendors have a partial Ethernet integration (mac) and still require an external chip for the PHY layer. It’s not really all integrated. If an external PHY chip is needed and going to occupy board space, there is no overhead (in terms of board space) in supporting a completely external device.
Macci – Some of the SBIOS settings like multipliers (for HT for example) and some of the memory timings cannot be changed on the fly in a Windows based utility because they require a reboot. However your point is taken, simple and clear Windows based overclocking and overvoltaging tool. Actually we already have a very extensive one with a bunch more features but it's for internal use. And no, I can’t release it. :(
Holst – Agreed with the inaccurate monitoring devices. I can’t tell you how many boards I‘ve seen with inaccurate voltage and temperature monitoring. What’s worse is if these inaccurate readings are used to actively control fans and frequency throttling. It can really spoil an otherwise nice motherboard.
Kobalt – I agree that some of the requests that have popped up in this thread are pretty hardcore and in some cases could limit the acceptance of a motherboard to a wide audience. The key is to try to balance everything. ATI is willing to listen however, to all requests. And no, we don’t think people are “retarded” for making some of these “hardcore” requests. It gives insight as to what people really want out of their product.
As for powering devices through the board, it may make things a bit tidier in the case, but it will go against the whole maximum overclocking goal. As others have pointed out, the name of the game is clean and strong power delivery. Powering HDDs, CD ROMs and other devices through the board will only disrupt power delivery on the board.
I agree with your choice of color, red is nice. :D
To all – Thanks for your opinions and input and keep it coming. Some may think that this is a useless exercise but let me assure you that it isn’t; don’t be surprised if you see most of these requests actually make it to market.
Encouraging... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayskull
Could u post a more current picture of the Radeon Xpress 200 than the one found in reviews ?Quote:
I agree with your choice of color, red is nice.
Thx, Perkam
Thanks for responding:
Sorry for putting words in your mouth; retarded was an exageration. I was just saying that I think ATI doesn't want to cater to a very very small group of people when they can please a much larger group while pleasing that very very small group of hardcore overclockers. I hope this is true, because I am a stock holder of ATI.
I thought powering devices through the board would be cool and original, but if it disrupts power like you said, then its fine to leave out since I wasn't sure what kind of consequences there would be.
spaceman - While there are thousands of overclockers, very few want a board for benchmarking only; having no features essentially makes the board benchmarking restricted, and especially since such a board would have 2 or less regular PCI slots. Its very difficult to explain my point because I have no idea what the benifits would be of removing a floppy connector or onboard sound. I don't know; I just see a big :D face when I think of a good overclocking board with nice features from ATI, and I see a big :shakes: face when I think of a board strictly for overclocking. Aren't the features like dual gigabit lan and higher bandwidth sata what help make the nforce4 chipset so much better than nforce3?
EDIT: If ATI actually does deliver boards with high voltage options I will /huggles ATI and sell my 6800 LE-> Ultra :toast:
NO DON't! He is a spy from Nvidia! lol... :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by perkam
Kobalt, the fact that the RS480 is the first AMD K8 PCI-E chipset with integrated graphics (and a very potent one at that, comparatively speaking) is a good indication that ATI is aiming to please the masses. The IGP market is very large and the business potential is enormous. However, just because we have catered to the masses in the past and continue to do so, doesn't mean we can't widen our scope to include the hardcore enthusiasts. This has been a goal of the RS480/RX480 project.
As for the spy comment, yeah I know that this is a public forum and our competitors are undoubtedly watching very closely. This is why I can't tell you about some of the exciting things that we are working on :D . One thing I will say, there is a lot of work happening around servicing the enthusiast market. We've even gone so far as making silicon revisions targeted specifically to further optimize our chipset for overclocking...over and above the current exemplary results that we are seeing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobalt
The board hasn't changed visibly since the reviews. We have had the board manufactured in both red and green. There are pictures of both versions floating around on the web.
I will post pictures of the Bullhead based machine that we put together for CES once I find a place to host the pics. It features a Bullhead board, FX-55 processor, OCZ memory, OCZ Powerstream PS, ATI X850XT PE, Raptor HDD, and Swiftech water cooling equipment.
The Bullhead reference board has spawned a few "brothers" so to speak. Pictures of those will have to wait. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by perkam
Grayskull, this may be a bit off topic to ask, but do you know if the folks at ATI have considered putting ram sockets on their cards so they could sell say a base card then allow us enthusiasts to buy faster ram for our cards if we want it?
Would be nice to do this on motherboards with integrated video too so you could dedicate more ram to the graphics..
Other thought is to put slots on the video cards (or on the motherboard) like system memory which would allow large ram banks for raw storage while smaller amounts of fast ram would be dedicated to the core..
Thanks for posting here, really shows a lot when manufacturers and vendors chose to put up with us enthusiasts and our rather extreme demands and sometimes outlandish ideas ;)
EDIT
I can host pics and there is an image attachment option on the forums too.
EDIT
May as well mention this while i'm up - There is a way to power HDD's and such through the motherboard and it would be fine for OEM systems and case modders but if you had too many devices powered through the setup I am thinking of it would overpower the circuitry of the board if it was not adequate. Costs could add up too probably, not to mention every case is not designed the same so you wouldnt gain on wire cleanliness much.
Okay found the image attachment feature, let's see if it works...
I like the placement of the 12v power [dfi [lower left of socket] caused trouble when I still had my xp-120], but hopefully the area on the left and right of the socket will be slightly less cluttered in a future revision.
And although some people wish it wasnt there, I think onboard sound is necessary, as are ps/2 ports and sata raid/floppy ide.
oh! some sata II support would be nice. i think via's and the first looks of ATI's boards showed only regular sata support and no NCQ support.
Can you tell us anything about different versions of the board? I assume there will be a high-end model with more features, so what will the "budget" board lack as opposed to the top-of-the-line model?
And, just as an aside, ATi pwnz j00!