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Actually that's the issue as well...there is no full nickel-plated version. They all have exposed copper base, unless you go .925 silver, which is incredibly overpriced. I can get .9999 silver 1oz ingots for ~$20 CAD here and I cannot see machining and all costing approx. €100 (~$150 CAD) extra.Quote:
Originally Posted by NKrader
is the limit for HK modifications. need some time that the WC would set up an innovative product :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
if you think a base is that easy then make one with a silver ingot.Quote:
Originally Posted by dejanh
The machine time required is a lot.
The pins are micro pins.. there machined really nice.
The only downside i see with the block is its not compression fitting friendly.
This is still the thing bugging me. Im especially curious how a company ends up in a design which doesnt allow compressions to be used. My random guess would be that close to half (maybe 30-40%?) of people do have compression fittings so you are leaving out a lot of possible customers just because their expensive compressions wouldnt fit the block. And that's on a market which is relatively small to begin with (although watercooling is getting popular, I dont know if you can call it a big market yet?) and has a lot of competitors.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
It's just really bugging me because it feels dumb as it basicly costs the company money just because one "small" thing is missing. And I would definitely buy this block over all the other cpu blocks out there because it looks really good and performs just as well as the others.
30-40% using compressions...? A not valid statement based on hypothesis and in my opinion far from true...
As to why a company decides not to be compression friendly, maybe it's cause they had performance in mind when they designed the block...? ;)
Didnt I say "a random guess"? Not a statement. :rolleyes:. I dont think anyone really has any valid data on that and I dont honestly have a clue but just my guess would be that around half are using compressions and the other half barbs :D (minority using compressions because of the price). Main point was just to say that there is a big amount of people that it leaves out.
For the design, maybe yeah. But there are plenty of other blocks out with the same performance but are also compression friendly. In that way it makes this block inferior to those. As it lacks one feature but doesnt really have anything that others wouldnt have either.
Don't be a smart a$$. I am saying that I can supply a sufficient quantity of silver to make the base for about $30-$40 CAD, so unless the machine cost is $50 per hour and it takes two hours to make one base it is freaking expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
I'm pretty sure it takes a few minutes per base with the right equipment, not a few hours.
Besides, what I want is a fully nickel-plated version, base and all. Then I'd be looking at this thing :) Only reason why I'm even considering silver is because of the look (really the block in general), but the premium is crazy.
Maybe the block was designed with their own compression fittings in mind? I think most of those will fit just fine. Still, quite narrow minded if that's the case.
Great design nonetheless.
Those are plug-in fittings, but yes, the block was designed with these in mind. Be happy they didn't use G1/8 threads (they're slowly going away from that, thank God...).
@dejanh
Something in your calcualtions must be wrong, since blocks with silver baseplates have always been in that price region... And getting the baseplate nickel-plated shouldn't be much of a problem, if you really need that for whatever reason...
The fact that they didn't design this with compression fittings in mind annoys me though, 1/2" OD with compression fittings is in fact very common here in Germany, not making sure those fit is just pure stupidity. And they obviously haven't learned anything from the Supreme HF's design or the baseplate thicker and the channels would have been deeper.
I found this review today:
http://www.awardfabrik.de/kuhlung-wa...x-kryos-5.html
Um, I don't think so. Pure Canadian .9999 Silver, 1oz is approx. $20 CAD (I ought to know, I bought it recently). 1oz is approximately 30 grams. Say you need about 100g of silver to make the base that would be $60 CAD for basically 100g of .9999 silver. That still leaves approx. $100 CAD for labor then. Nothing wrong with my math, but the premium you are paying for the silver base is crazy. .925 silver is probably significantly cheaper too. I bet you can find it for at least 30% to 50% less than .9999 pure Silver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickel020
Anyway, yes, I could plate the base myself but it is a hassle to do and I don't want to do it. They should offer a fully plated block. It costs them nothing to plate the base when they are already plating the rest of the block. It would cost me minimum $20 CAD on top of the base price of the block to do it, not to mention the hassle of buffing the base to make it mirror finish, cleaning all of the oxidation stains, etc.
Of course the margin is bigger than with a normal block, three times the price usually makes at least three times the margin, and not just because the manufacturers are greedy. There's also more than 35€ tax in the price. And getting silver that can be used for the baseplates is certainly more expensive than buying the equivalent amount of silver on the market, it's very likely harder to source than more common electrolytic copper plates.
Then again, it's nothing new that AC likes to charge a bit of a premium. Just look at the markup between the Pro and the XT, 20€ for a baseplate and mediocre nickel plating of the top only is asking quite a bit.
Nobody needs to buy the expensive silver edition anyway, you're not worse off because it exists - the copper edition performs just as well whether there's a silver edition or not. Also, how much better is sterling silver than copper anyway, it's definitely worse than pure silver for one...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dejanh
*sigh*
Then make one yourself.
And i do consider myself a smart ass... ive brought out 3 innovations to our hobby.
So i think i deserved the title of being a smart ass in this section.
Actually those will work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandr0s
Normal barbs will also work with koolance clamps fine.
i could not get fesser 3/8 compressions on... in fact i cant get any compressions on, so its a no go unless ur going 1/4 ID tubing.
90's will work, so will 45's.
Any bitspower rotary will work, as long as there is no compression.
Let's not forget that most of the silver readily available is in some form of "minted" bar which would need to be reformed to make it usable as a CPU block (+ $$). Also, silver is a bit soft and requires a little extra care (slower speeds and feeds which increases machining time) when machining and good machinists aren't cheap (upwards of $30 US/hr).
Also, a smaller run will always significantly increase price as well, never underestimate the effect of economies of scale. Of course the margins are higher than with other blocks, but their costs are definitely quite a bit higher than your "calculations".
I'm guessing also that part of performance might be influenced by inlet placement in block reading about mentioned tests of many variants of block, so maybe it was choice of AC to choose performance over better CF compatibility, not just to spite us :)
The difference is negligible, just look at the numbers for the two inlet configurations of the Apogee XT:
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/APOGEE-XT.asp
They probably just didn't think many people would care, their usual customers certainly won't, they use thin tubing. But this time around they actually made a higher performance block that other people than their usual customers might be interested in.
Got mine too, testing this weekend... results seem to be promising...
Had some issues with my sample and the REX III board...
1) Screws barely pass the PCB... so replaced mine with 15mm variants... good solid fix now... (Sven told me it is not necesarry, dunno bout that, I rather have a screw well threaded in then just a mm...)
2) There's an annoying mosfet on the rear of the REX III that has just got enough clearance to not scorch the rubber... had to cut the rubber...
3) Due to the thickness of the backplate/rubber, the 4 mounting screws touch the Lian Li's mobo tray... not happy about position at all... will prolly use another backplate.
I think the rubber plate is unnecessary on 1366/1156 boards, did you try it without it? These insulators are necessary on 775 boards so the metal doesn't directly touch the PCB, but you're only touching the metal socket backplate anyway on 1366/1156. The fact that there are problems with installing it the way the manual tells you to is disappointing, considering the quality AC usually delivers.
Yeah, included mounting system is basically unusable on E758 as well (no cap on the back, the socket's backplate is enough to cause interference). Needs longer screws for sure, but not too long or else the thumb screws will bottom out, but a little longer (12mm should be enough, stock is 10mm, your 15mm sounds good too). Overall I really don't like the mounting system, even if longer screws were included.
It's performance is definitely good so far, will be interesting to see how the thicker internal o-ring performs too.
Without the rubber it touches the Mosfet which is not good :) so either gona use another backplate or a thinner rubber to avoid interference with the mobo tray... Will post piccies when I'm home again... I also made the holes in the mounting plate a bit wider to have a bit more clearance for easier install...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickel020
I'm sorry, but imho comparing two different waterblocks even though with seemingly similar inner structure is nevertheless 'apples to oranges' comparison. I doubt AC didn't think of fitting compatibility issue, and we don't have on hand real numbers of their different test block varieties to objectively state something. You have your guess, which is just as possible as guess of mine :). At the end fitting compatibility is just one of waterblock features in doing purchase decision, and if this waterblock will shine in other areas good enough in independent trustable 3rd party tests, i'm shure people will buy it nevertheless this shortcoming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickel020
There is no real effect on the flow rate. Of course I have picked up a good looking base for the photos but that was pretty easy since the quality of the manufacturing process in the last runs was very high so almost all bases have a clean look. You should also keep in mind that after mounting and using the base some pins will be bent. As some others already mentioned: it has almost no effect on the performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I also noticed that the light and angle of view has some influence on the overall look of the base.
No, we don't offer it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cstkl1
Yes, it has :D We tested a lot of different variants.Quote:
Originally Posted by StAndrew
As written above, the bases from the last runs look very clean with none or only slightly bent pins.Quote:
Originally Posted by dejanh
Not sure to whom you are talking to. We did all tests in the same environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsiddius
Producing such a block in your mind and in reality is a difference ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dejanh
We pay 65.00 EUR + VAT (19%) for the raw material that is used for milling. Don't expect to get clean silverware in the necessary shape for the typical market price. If you still thing you can do it with ease for under 77.00 EUR: send your offer for a 62x56x4 .925 sterlin silver block to info@aqua-computer.de. That should already make you thinking that there is something wrong with your calculation ;)
Around 65% of the additional charge is for the raw material and 35% for the additional work. When we produce such silver bases all tools are always exchanged with new ones which costs time. These silver bases also need to be handled with kid gloves.
And did I mention the "ooops-factor"? :D
Ooops, has the machine killed my beloved silver base...?
You can use compression fittings with the block but not those XXL-fittings.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
We had no specific fittings in mind. The current distance of 20 mm is used for many of our products.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandr0s
As said: no, we had them not in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickel020
Slowly going away from G1/8"? - We don't use that anymore since quite some time now for new products.
You can use 1/2" OD compression fittings with this block. I have even used them for the photos on page 1.
We already had a look how the top could be changed to allow the usage of larger compression fittings like BP 16/11 mm. Don't expect a solution within the next few days but I can promise it will be available in the near future :)
You are just right. The inlet must be above the center and we can't move it anywhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
As said a slightly different variant for larger fittings will follow.And I still think using such large screws could get you into new trouble. Make sure that you can screw them completely into the bolts since they do not offer much space for larger screws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeghoofd
If you use the block without the rubber plate you will lose cooling performance. The rubber plate is necessary to get a proper pre-load.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickel020
Hehe, my main Excel sheet for the tests contains more than 2.000 measured values (all entered by hand) for temperatures, flow etc. I'm happy that this testing-horror has come to an end :)Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
Well i can't wait for the new variant of the block. I'm going to get one asap. Change my enzotech saphire to this one. No problems with the temps, q9650 @4,5 and 33C unn an 21C room..
But your block should be better and looks 100 times better..
Welcome to my world, well not the hand entry part. :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoggy