I forgot I had toes from 8am until 5pm today... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Shpoon
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I forgot I had toes from 8am until 5pm today... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Shpoon
Or not matter much at all... do YOU know how much flow a GPU block and NB block like the Swiftechs need to perform well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Peanut
They are both low restriction blocks... a bunch of kits out there trickle-flow to thier respective GPU+NB blocks and perform well. i.e. Koolance and Euro.
I mean the temp. diff on a GPU between air and water is massive... is a bit less flow through an MCW60 going to matter much? I don't think so... same goes for the MCW30 NB block. my 2c !
My question is why are they using LUMIERE for testing, I have some in my fridge and last I checked, it's made for low temp applications. Also why are all the tests done @ 100w and on the CPU, a 2.2ghz 1.6v SINGLE CORE? 100w is hardly over stock and single core is ancient history by now. They need to start testing @ 150-200w and a dual core (preferably conroe) heavily overclocked and overvolted (1.6v+ 3.6ghz+)
The difference between the apogee and storm isn't much at all with an IHS though. If they didn't solder the damn things on it would be storm all the way but it's not worth the flow restriction when you have an IHS to deal with. I'm considering selling my iwaki because of it. RD-20rzt has 22' head but only 3gpm flow :(
so initial idea for this thread is completely devoid of any usefullnes, correct?
Max seems to want to delete any reference on this board regarding
Apogee V Storm :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wang
low restrictions blocks need more flow to perform well. as this testing shows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digz
and your right.
the watercooling section is the worst for misconceptions and blind following and ass kissing to people like cathar/marci/Eddie_EK/etc (however, for the record, i find eddie much much more humble, which is a very good thing)
if you post anything here that even remotely comes close to critisizing cathar/storm or marci/thermochill, expect biased flaming.
watercooling isnt the same as it was 3 years ago when i first started. back then it was done for purely for perfomance or silence. not to waste your money and be trendy showing.
Some of which you seem rather fond of.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
In reference to reservoirs...Quote:
Originally Posted by W.S.P.
Now slightly amended...Quote:
Originally Posted by W.S.P.
As for ass kissing...
I would gladly pucker up (preferably in exchange for a G7) for Cathar- his contributions to the art, not only physical product but explaining the process/reasoning behind them, are immeasurable (not that I grasp more than a fraction of his reasoning).
You on the other hand, seem to have mastered the art of kissing your own ass, which is physically remarkable but hardly in the same league.
it whould be really nice real hard facts how the two blocks differ when tested with a dual core cpu.
this idea just popped in to my head, what do you gues thing if..... and i'm speaking hypotheticly. i whould silver plate the bottom of the my apogee whould it make it equel or mayby even better than storm..... again just speaking hypotheticly.
I don't think so.
Plating a copper bottom would just add yet another interface for heat to traverse.
You are in effect doing that when you use TIM like AS5 when mounting your copper waterblock on your CPU. IMO the best waterblock base is one that is made of silver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarfall
are u sure, so that the hell is the point to silver plate storm blocks, just esteticsQuote:
Originally Posted by clokker
and pimping factor :cool:
No the absolute best is one made of Diamond but we haven't figured a good way to build laboratory diamonds.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCme
Silver would be the second best and then Cu which is about 5% less conductive than silver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
I agree 100%
I went from a Swiftech boxed kit with 3/8 tubing, 6002 block and ddc pump (GASP) to a custom kit using 1/2", D5, Thermochill PA120.2, yate loons and you know what I gained? Nothing. But bad mouth thermochill or the Storm and you get flamed out of here. Personally I would never use the storm for one simple reason, jets. Jets clog, as we've all seen the threads where someone has ripped one open to find their precious storm jets clogged. I don't care if it was a whole degree cooler than the next best block - I wouldn't use it for this reason alone. I dont wanna have to clean it nearly that often.
I've stopped spending much time here in the water cooling thread as there is just too much blind loyalty, common sense had been abandoned long ago. And, when you are talking real world performance, not something on a graph in c/w, we are talking a difference that you cannot see. A tenth or even 1/2 a degree isnt enough to rip apart a loop and drop an additional $50 on no matter how xtreme you think you are. :rolleyes:
Remember a fool and his money soon part. Buy the Apogee and invest that extra cash in a better CPU - you will be much further off... I know this from first hand experience. Flame away.
my thought exactly. that's the why i boaght myself a apogee. the cloging jets on the storm do suck big time.Quote:
Originally Posted by dnottis
:lol: That was hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by dnottis
There are already two threads in the WC section about people having the Storm and getting no better temps than a mid-range heatsink. I'm still a newb to the WC section, but the stickies say the Apogee sucks, while the charts here show it's an awesome block for less. Is it hard cold fact that the Apogee performs just as good as the Storm for less?
So the difference between the Storm and the Apogee isn't a big one. OK that is fine with me, tho I still think the apogee is ugly :p:
What about rads? Thermochill PA rads are still the best rads correct? Though I know the HW labs GTX series was released, I'm curious as to how those perform in comparison. I want the best performing rad unless the difference is only a degree or so, then I'd go for what is cheaper (money plays a big part of it for me).
I always wondered why there is always :banana::banana::banana::banana: thrown at the Apogee .... This is what I have been waiting for, I have been completely BLINDED BY THE "STORM DOGMA". I agree that best experience is your own (Which is my problem :p: ). And I from now on I have learned that at least for my waterblock restriction is becoming an important factor ... My Alphacool GP2X (brick wall, like AQX MP-1) totally screwed my flowrate off my HPPS (modded Eheim 1046 with 2m maxhead). I really like the comparison of $-effectivity ... I wonder what would it be to compare a Storm with 2xDDC and Apogee with 1xDDC cooling an OCed dulacore cpu and what would you gain for those 100+ $
AFAIK, no one has plated a Storm block- either for bling or performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarfall
Cathar's blocks were made with a solid silver base (hence the cost) replacing the usual copper.
Edit: BTW, is anyone here denying that the Storm actually does outperform the Apogee?
Whether it's by a fraction of a degree or not, if the Storm betters the Apogee then it's not "hype"- it's fact.
Whether or not you think the difference warrants the extra cost is completely subjective and cannot be expressed in a graph.
damn can't remember in witch site i saw a dude how had silver plated his storm.
and yes i don't think that any one is deniying the fact that storm out performs apogee by a margin, I'll SAY it again by a margin and costs allmost twice as much if there are geegs out there who gets a hardon this way i say go right a heat.
lol let the flaming begin
Storm does deserve it's good reputition, but Apogee doesn't deserve a reputition quite this bad. It's a cheap block which performs pretty darn well. I agree with Maxxxs sticky except for the "please try to avoid it" part which is a bit harsh.
The history
Apogee didn't get it's reputation for performing bad. For those of you who don't know the history, here it is (the short version):
Back when Cathar released Storm it performed a lot better than all other blocks. It was every enthusiasts wet dream, but not very easy to get and even harder to pay for. Then Swiftech started to mass produce the G4 which made it possible for us mortal people to get one and everyone was happy.
Then one day Swiftech released Apogee and kinda marketed it as Storms replacement. Apogee is a cheap copy of the old 5000/6000-series, some say it performs even worse but I'll stay out of that discussion. A cheap and ugly (according to most people) block replacing our beloved Storm? You can see how this made us Storm lovers angry and why many of us refused (some still refuse) to accept that it's a decent block. Then there was the testing mess but I'll leave that for now.
Appearance
The craftmanship behind Apogee is lousy compared to Storm and it has no history.
Apogees top is injection molded and you could replicate the bases diamond pin matrix with a hand saw.
Storms top and base however requires very delicate CNC machining and you can really see the craftsmanship in every detail. To a trained eye who understands the effort needed to create Storm it's very beautiful.
After spending countless nights reading about Cathars work over at ProCooling I was very happy the day I received my Storm. It was (and still is) worth every cent.
I do also own Apogee because it serves another purpose. It's a cheap, good performing and low restriction block. Precisely what I was looking for to silence my GFs shuttle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clokker
There are tests out showing that its not necessarily the case in the still unique situation of a dual die quad core Intel.
Yes, I do own multiple Storm (both revisions) and Apogee blocks, so I have actively used both. I am saying that the debate from my standpoint has nothing to do with cost, just performance. And the sad truth is that the Storm, as haloed as it is, may now be surpassed by the Apogee because of the physical nature of a dual die Intel cpu.
Sorry, I'm not lucky enough to be able to buy a Silver Storm, not because of cost, but because I cannot find any available.
if you have been around the WC world long enough, you will know what i am talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by clokker
when i first started watercooling, i owned a RBX, and a TDX. both of those blocks were highly popular back then, and both came stock with acrylic tops.
i got the nozzle sets for each as well.
both now have cracked to hell tops, and the cracks started about 6-9 months and i used to have to clean the jets on the number 5 plates fairly often.
acyrlic cracks, period.
anyone who has been watercooling for some time will know this. but mostly you see noobs going "ive been using an acrylic rad for 6 months and it hasnt cracked" well, thats exactly why you havent seen cracks, they are only into it 6 months.
long time reliability of acrylic blocks, and even worse, res's is terrible.
ask anyone who has used an acrylic topped block for a decent amount of time, and i bet they will tell you it has cracks, and the tops of blocks is over and inch thick. while the walls of res's are mere millimeters.
EDIT: and for the people who think they need a storm to be extreme, think about this, if your going for full out watercooling, you will have at least one gpu block.
and if you have the storm, its perfomance will suffer, and in turn from the restriction of the gpu block, the storms perfomance will suffer.
because the storm is ever very so slightly better in SINGLE BLOCK loop, while im sure most people here cool their gpu as well, and since the storm is a high restriction block, not only will the gpu block recieve less flow, the storm will recieve less flow from the resistance of the gpu block.
Acrylic tops and tanks do tend to crack after a while. Especially with metall barbs and even more with tapered barbs.
But lately I've not heard of much cracking. Maybe because most blocks have delrin tops nowadays, or maybe because the manufacturers use better acrylic? What suprises me the most is that I've never heard of a cracked EK block even though he uses acrylic tops + metal barbs on all of his blocks! He must be using some really good type of acrylic or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
i think alot of it is, that people dont keep full cover blocks in use for very long, as they only fit one card, so they get replaced when a new card is bought.
but my original comment was about acrylic res's being unreliable due to cracking, and i just used my first hand experience with acrylic topped blocks to show my point of how even thick acrylic cracks.
Why in the last 6+ months time, i haven't seen a single acrylic res crack thead...? :p: