thanks very much, you`re welcome in the competition :) and yours daughter too ;) Congrats :woot:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssilencer
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thanks very much, you`re welcome in the competition :) and yours daughter too ;) Congrats :woot:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssilencer
Awesome! Congrats on the daughter as well. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssilencer
Can someone give me a part number for an high pressure cutoff switch? Danfoss ones, for example...
Castel 3060/23C250
Refco EZ-75
.... here you go! ;)
RUNMC is stocking high pressure cutoffs on www.under-the-ice.com
Mine's a 1hp, 6-stager :woot: ! Too bad I have absolutely no idea how this thing was built and how it actually works (and neither does chilly1 :p: )Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwolf
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4879/877xb.jpg
danfoss KP7 <- these are adjustableQuote:
Originally Posted by Ratax
This are safety valves and no high pressure cutoff switchQuote:
Originally Posted by 404Power
Sry .... only read til the word pressure! :D
switches ... so ... no valves! :D
SRY!
So tempted to join in with this but think I'll stick to my cascade first. Got 2 rotaries sitting here asking to be used :(
Boardy
OK? So phase sep need to be home made? Wanted to use spare oil sep I had for it...?
Oh... I would like to join in :)
Compressor not decided, gas... probably mix of following...
R402a, R404a, R507, R116, R23, R508...
(not sure which one quite yet...... there is the fun part I guess)
I like to join too... Compressor 1/2HP or more, gases R402a/R1150...
tnx
you'll have problems using a gas that's blended (like the 400 series) in an auto-c. your phase seperator is going to break apart the gasses.Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
Please all who didn`t show us ice batch shot to do it in next few days, please.
LittleDevil, jinu117 you`re in.
402 will seperate, can not be used;)Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleDevil
are you sure? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleDevil
The use of 4xx series gasses is NOT something that can't be used, it just means a lot more thought has to go into it's use.
The gasses will tend to separate more easily than the 5xx gasses, but if you use more than 2 stages and buffer the first stage with something that condenses at the higher temps/lower pressures then there's no reason you can't.
Also if the 'glide' in a 4xx gas is quite low it's chances of separating in way that's going to drastically affect the operation is reduced as well.
I'm looking forward to seeing how those that are using the 4xx gasses end up myself. It's been done in some successful Autocascading before, by Mr. Chilly1, so it's not like it WON'T work, I just think that the tuning process may be more difficult in using them.
Cheers
Gray
Here is mine.
the polycold system has many stages so you have to worry about it less, every refrigerant will find it's own space in the system.
something like r404a isn't really a problem to use because the amount of r134a is so small in it, but with r402a you have a large glide and the mix contains large amounts of r125 and large amounts of r22. when the r22 condenses and cools down the HX there is absolutly no reason for the r125 to condens in the condensor so the r125 will condens in the HX where the high pressure refrigerant should condens. When you only have a 2 stage, this is a big problem offcourse.
and you can't expect to get the performance from r402a in an autocascade that you can expect from r402a in a single stage.
A 1/2 hp compressor with r402a and ethylene is just asking for very very high discharge pressures.
but I don't care anymore, it's just some advice to make it easier and rule out some factors if something goes wrong. if people don't want to read it fine, I'll shut my mouth about it ;) everbody just do what you like.
Well it's very good advice, Unknown. Really unless you want to get complicated, or make it more difficult to work with, then using pure gassed that you know are going to do what you 'hope' they'll do is always going to be the easiest method for sure.
I'm still torn on using a blend and a third stage myself, but really that's only gonna happen if the mods I'm doing for ppl slows down, otherwise keeping it simple is what I'll be doing, as it will save a lot of tuning time.
So really, your reminders are only going to help people if they listen to you. Especially those that haven't tried an Auto before.
Gray
Actually, that was good advice unknown lol.
Only thing is... in my case, my opinion of how it should work is bit diff from rest of guys looking at it really... I DON'T want 100% separation due to capacity issues that happens or huge static pressure... :p
I want something reasonable that can get colder temp than single stage could that is useful :)
So what I was designing in first place had bit of the "blendid" 2nd stage to see if proper amount of refrigerant with good mixture of gas can get in :p
Yes, tuning isn't going to be fun as Gray mentioned but I got time it seems :P
One major candidate in my eye right now is R404a+R23. (practically same composition as ES-20). Obviously, it will partially separate in this situation which I think might just do the trick for what I want to achieve using not too big of compressor. But than... I got other gases to play with... 116 looks nice since it's discharge pressure is so low... who knows what will happen after all :p
well jinu I had a good lauch when you summed up the gasses you wanted to use. I don't mean this as a flame or anything, I just don't think you really thought about it.
A mix of r404a + r507, these gasses are almost the same r404a=507+4%r134a so mixing them doesn't do anything.
A mix of r508 + r23 +r116, r508=r23+r116!! so r508 is useless if you can mix r23+r116 yourself.
Lmao... I meant probably 2 out of the set I have in hand... lol :p Of course, that makes selection much more varied in my end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
I will repeat, R404a <> R507+R134a. The ratio of two other gases are too diff to consider it similar enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
:clap: :clap: :clap: Thats what I've been trying to tell these guys. Chemical engineers work for years in lab with the best test equiptment to find the mixes for the best performance.There are already over 50 gases avalible for use. You then know the P/T charts and atomic weights. I think the key to a good auto is the correct weights and miscability,or non-miscability. You may also consider the velocity in the seperator.;)
Dun forget how it enters the seperator.
I will not doing autocascade, please delete me... :)
tnx
done :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleDevil
Ok boys and girls, I'd just like to check if my compressor is allowable under the comp rules. It's out of a 12000btu air con and is supposidly rated at 13000btu here's a piccy of the specs (framed in the red box). All my caculations indicate that it's about 1.5hp, but quite a few people have posted so far that they are using 12000btu compressors, ave I calcuated wrong :confused: ?
It is a 1hp rotary as described in the following datasheet (according to your specs it's a QJ222PAA rotary model; here is the QJ222P datasheet; the only diff may be the power input ie 115V/240V, 50Hz/60Hz).Quote:
Originally Posted by aussie_guy00000
its over 1 hp............if ou want to get technical you need to state 1 hp input or output.
You're right, i've missed the basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
input 1194 Watts
1hp = 746W
So it means 1194/746=1,6 HP
Sorry for bad info, but on manufacturer site, it's given for "+1HP"
Thanks walt, that's what I thought, but I see a lot of people refering to a 12-13000btu compressor as a 1hp compressor :confused: . And i've checked the power input of most of them and they're all around 1100-1200w, and therefore 1.5-1.6hp. I just wanted to clarify if I was missing something.Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
*runs off to find a smaller compressor*
Ok, where are you getting copper wools in US? man... I am too lazy :P
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6236/btu9ml.jpg
a quick cross reference - maybe this should be a sticky
Grocery stores. That's where I got mine :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
It's a good table, but I think the problem is that a lot of people mix up the power rating with the cooling capacity, although I don't know how they came up with 12000btu = 1hp :confused:. I guess this table should make it a piece of cake to establish compressor sizing for everyone :DQuote:
Originally Posted by MarioMaster
Can i enter the competition with 34CC compressor?
I'll use TEV\TEV R11,R14,R22,R23 + some specific from secret research labs ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by xooler
*looooooooooooooool*Quote:
Location: Russia,Saint-Petersburg
Be aware of our russian friend with some secret "gases"...
Hehe...just kidding btw... :p:
Yea, of course you can enter the competition, you`re welcome here :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by xooler
I see that you want to use few gasses and it will be few stages autocascade ? I will add you to "Super PRO" division.
Good luck
Update: You`re in, please post your ice bath shoot here ;)
TEV on second stage ?? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by xooler
R11 ..that's having + 23.8* C boiling point in 0 bars ...:rolleyes:
I think, that Your auto-c would be something special :D
Really ? :D +23,8*C ? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by piotres
r11 isn't a bad choice. I think someone did his homework :D
2 LukeXE LOL,Yeah,i've SS =)
I'm not idiot ;)
High boiling temperature gases are used to provide liquid phase after first HX ( mix-to-air) and make it easier to control separating pressure via 3-d valve and thus presence of low boiling components in gase phase after separator.
We try to make mix with "wide fish" on P-Xi diagramm and extra high temperature glide.And, we don't need separator presence, but, because of not too good heat exchanger, we have to separate liquid, not allowing it to pass through high pressure HX side.
Looking at his site i would say that he has the appropriate experience, why must you all be so quick to ask that question, its always statements like the one quoted that i see pop-ing up, I'm sure the man wouldnt have signed up for the competition, without previous experience/knowledge...Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
The *smug* clowd grows, in this little section of XS..
thanks
[ZIZI]
Xooler, [ZIZI] @ I`m sorry, I had today bad day (it`s quite late now in poland, I must go to bed quickly), don`t be mad at me, I didn`t want my words have that bad meaning, I`m such an idiot now :cord:
Really, I didn`t known that gas with + boilling temp could be used in autocascade but from now I will know that it`s possible, thanks for explain and sorry again for that stupid question :yepp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleDevil
Little devil don’t quit the autocascade comp, just use something other than r402a.
Why not try r290/1150 I was hoping for some competition. :toast:
I'm currently unsure as to whether or not I'm gonna be able to compete in this competition. I have expenses at around $600 a month right now, and for a 16 year old in between jobs, it's hard enough to manage as it is, without having to add in getting all the parts for an autocascade together.
We have a lot of time for build it, still we have 4 months to do working auto-c. Maybe you will be in better financial situation in next 2-3 months ?
Absolutely no need to appoligize, I jumped the gun as well: I too had a rough day and it's just that i see so many of such posts that i probably misunderstood the point behind your question as an act of arrogance, for that i appoligize, as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
forget about it :D :toast: :toast:
As for the autocascade competition, you competitors better start showing some updates im getting nervous ;) keep up the good work.
[ZIZI]
I plan on waiting until August 31st to start posting updates :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by [ZIZI]
... but honestly, I probably won't get started until june, too much to do this semester.
thanks :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by [ZIZI]
and about competition, some people posted they projects here, at Teampuss : http://teampuss.com/forums/index.php (in the middle of forum). check this out :)
Also what are rules concerning multiple units? Could I enter both co2 and open division?
Really I don`t know...but you should stay in one division, maybe next time you will enter open division ? but this is only my opinion, Runmc and Chilly1 should tell us they opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Well I entered co2 due to a lack of gases, now I will have enough before september hopefully. I still want to attempt co2 though.
Starting my build this sunday :woot:
Going to pick up some ethane this weekend :D
Everyone's hitting up the ethane train? :( Damn there goes the advantage.
Yep :stick: :p:
It's because ethane has a low boiling point given the pressure which it condenses at, and has a decent latent heat of vaporization too.
Yup! :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkiing
about time some one started the first autocascade hey gkiing.
200psi and autocascading at -20c :toast:
thats cheating:slapass:
cant wait to see some cold temps their gkiing.
havnt seen you for a while:D
im in for the open Class autocascade competition.
ill use 1hp r410 rotory, probably r507/r410-r1150
all parts will be here next week so im expecting the project to end within a month since im getting obsessed when competing :D
if the project turns to good temps it will be the first stage of my new 2stage cascade!
nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by esdee
thats going to be a beefy auto:toast:
Yeah, I haven't been around since about last september because of work, but now I have some time to build once again :woot:Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
Yes the gas(es) came in!!! Now... how naive of me to think it would have more common fitting... now I have hydrogen regulator sitting here not being utilized (for ethylene tank)... time to search for CGA 660 fittings... and bunch of them... lovely.
Congrats ! :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
esdee --> you`re in !
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
sweet. the hydrogen regs fit 1150 bottles nicly. is the CGA 660 fitting for the refrigerant hose to screw onto, that was the only thing i had to change on mine. I got mine of oxygen reg not in use.
i have the impression we need to set some standards for out heat load testers.
like what resistors to use, same dimensions copper plate and same temprature measuring place
I find heatcartridge to be most efficient while others abide by resistor. And evap temp reading and inside load tester temp reading should be taken at same time really to see how well both side of story stacks up. (evap temp can be anywhere if we have set load tester temp measuring point really as we want cooler CPU even more than cooler evap :)
I am not really sure how this will unfold now with cryo-tek in there but hey not stopping :p
I personally don't see the point for the oil seps to be homemade, since those who will choose to buy a comercial oil sep will have no performance advantage in their autocascade!. how about we change this rule?
keep in mind that an oil sep will also act like a phase-sep
He hasn't yet officially thrown his hat in the ring, so no worries......for now ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
yes this is possible too, but i was planning to pass through the oil sep only the 2nd stage gas, since first stage gas has no problem with oil carrying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
i like your idea...this would give lower static pressures too
Ok, we have 26 members...but ONLY 10 members gave me their ice bath shots ;]
I'm waiting on my thermometer, dt200 is being sent back, then buying echow's.
Okey, so other people please post your ice bath shots (if you can :D).
Ok so I will be using either a 1/2hp rotary or a 3/4hp rotary 507/CO2 captube both side well thats the spec so far but the 1/2hp could be a scroll
LukeXE,
Yes, we know, and keep on mind about ice bath, but we have no thermometers which will be installed on our systems.
As soon as they arrive - we'll make some shots.
Hehe, okey, I can wait :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by xooler
Henery 450 psi releif valve on ebay , this seller has 5 for sale. This is 3/8" which is a little larger than needed ,but they are all the same price. he has 1/4" and 1/8" also the same seller has multiply valves and pressures.
http://cgi.ebay.com/HENRY-RELIEF-VAL...QQcmdZViewItem
Remove me from the list, I won't be able to afford to compete :(
Some of you know I was building a r290/r170 cascade, it was finished this weekend but the tests didn't work out as I hoped. It worked much better as my previous autocascade but the r290 and r170 blended too much. The condensed r290 didn't contain (much) r170 but the r170 stage did contain much r290. Too bad. I don't have a pure replacement refrigerant for the r290 but maybe I'll try r507 for testing. If that doesn't work my autocascade charging methode is still faulty.
In gasdynamic physics terms it should have 100% seperation (I always understand theory better then practise) .
well I'll tell you guys more info if I get it working.
edit: I just realised that fluor bases refrigerants are slightly negative charged on the sides of the molecule while r290 and r170 are slightly positivly charged. So fluorcarbon bases refrigerants will probably blend even better with r170 as r290. :( I think when your using mostly fluor based refrigerants the negative fluor charge helps in the seperation. maybe the higher molecular mass of the fluor based refrigerants helps something. I think I'm going to do a minor chemistry. :lol:
Chemist present?
Unknown road How about r134a and 170. Another option to help separation is to have SLHX before the phase separator and HX after. That is how I will be doing my auto when I catch up on current work load. Have you updated TP with pics dieing to see the auto hey.
well I still don't trust SLHX's to be part of the operation proces. For efficiency ok but such a setup would mean that when you apply to much load to the system the whole seperation would fail. But I might have an idea that will have the same effect but is more reliable. I'll post pic's etc soon ;) Want to experiment some more before that
oh btw, I don't have r134a here either :( need to import some gasses I geuss because I can't get them here.
Hmmm,so who already have built working autocascade for this competition ? :)
I`ve built one, it`s not working as I wanted, but I think I will do something with it ;)
I havent found the time just yet for my autocascade, but I need to work out some more kinks in my design.
Hehe, I will found some free time for auto-c when I will end school (the end of this year semester in poland is on 23 June) :D :D
Can someone help me with capillary lenght ? From what lenght I should start, now auto has 2,35m of 0,031" on I stage (r290) and 2,5m for 2 stage (r744)and I`m stil playing with gasses ratio (without positive effect :/ )
can you give some more info? what is exactly the problem? why do you think you need different cap tube length?
I`m stupid, I forget that I didn`t write any info on this forum about auto-c.(on TP yes).
So...
I`m using R290 and CO2. Charging autocascade is looking that:
1. Static charge with R290 to 3-4 bar (40-60PSI).
2. Turning on auto-c and charging with R290 until HX will frezze.
3. OK, so I stage is working...now I must start charge with CO2...
4. I`m charging with co2 until evap temp will go down.
5. I`m playing with ratio of gasses, try to keep I stage holding II stage etc.
6. Lowest temp I saw -- -55*C
Pressures 0,6bar // 16bar, HX temp ~30*C.
So, I`m wondering, what I should do, play one more time (vacuum and charge once again) or cut/add cap tube.
Now if your initial charge is pure r290, there is still some r290 then moving thru ur low side, that area isnt just in vacuum. Maybe try charging to 20-25PSI with co2 first, then add r290 till the hx freezes along with evap, then begin to play.
does the evap only starts to freeze when you add co2? that would be weird.
imo the way in which you charge doesn't affect anything since the gas is continues pumped round
when you HX and evap are still fed enough refrigerant to cool it there is no need to shorten the cap tube. adding cap tube is only usefull when you have lots of floodback.
Evap starts freeze only when I will add co2, not earlier.
co2 in autoC is not very good cause to prevent dice you need some other gas to "wash down" (or something lol) the dice
i got same -56 on Cryos design, with R23 you should have good temps :)
R23 is fine, but very exepnsive
cascade works good with co2+r290 r290 is also a heavy gas if the mixture is right there s no problem @ all
best things to think about is a good evap design and a nice suction line (bigger tubes)
it can hel to use bigger captubes .31 instead of .28 and tweak it for load (short captube)
you can easy get -80 to -90C unloaded without freezing co2, its all about right mixture.
can you show us this -90 Co2 autoc ? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by andL64
i also thought about to go up with the low pressure site because i thought then it wouldnt evaporate that cold and it wouldnt get frozen, thats wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
you should cut captube, yes
i think youve got too much R290 in the system you dont need that much.
just start with bout 1,5-2bar R290 static and add some R744 about in the ration 2:3, so i used about 2bar R290 and 3bar CO2 and it was fine, but sure such things are very variable depending onb the system you built.
i just got the -85C with oridnary R290+Co2 cascade and it works great (finally) i used 1st stageR290 and 2nd R290+R744, i only used about 1,5-1,6m of .28 0,7mm captube, i think if i had teaked it for temps (longer captube) i may reached -100 but the load temps are worse then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaster
it was hell of tweaking i had problems with about -70C evap temp or little less and i couldnt find a solution so i tried everything and finally i came to -85C unloaded without freezing the evap anymore.
i just thought it would be possible 4 sure to do this in autocascade too, but s sure even harder
i can only show you pics of the -85C co2+r290 cascade which isnt freezing and can hold load temps well.
yes on normal cascade is easy to "trip" the dice problem by adding another gas to 2nd stage
on the other hand, on autoCs its much harder cause you need something to "carry" the dice, and if you have full separation that will not happen
sure thats true, full seperation will not work, but s not hard to seperate a part of the "lower" gas.
even with CO2 I doubt you can get anywhere near full seperation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaster
I thinked about adding second gas that will have low condensing temp, maybe similar to co2. It will go with co2 to evap and "push" dice from it....but which gas ? :| It`s easy to say/write, but much harder to do :|
Now I really see, that do working autocascade with co2 is very hard job, we will have real competition in co2 division, good luck to everyone !
Unknown_road @ could I add you to members list ?