Question how does double the pumps double the head? If they are in series? I can see where you could enhance flow with double pumps and a few wye's.
-Brandon
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Question how does double the pumps double the head? If they are in series? I can see where you could enhance flow with double pumps and a few wye's.
-Brandon
yasou, it will double the head. it will work just fine afaik. it will help out quite a bit i thinjk as the l30 and 35 are low head pumps
brandon, in series it doesnt increase max flow, but doubles the pressure. not sure how exactly to explain the way it works though. double pressure = double head. the first pump gives backpressure on teh second pump which helps the second pump perform better. thats one way of looking at it. so instead of having negative ressure around the pump inlet it has high positive pressure. i hope that makes sense.
if you put them in parallel it doubles the max flow but leaves head pressure the same.
think of it this way.. you have two cars... with two cars each of which are 200hp you can cary 2X amount of weight combined between them. they can move at 100mph while carying 2X weight. That is parallel...
series is this. you have those two cars put into one car both of their engines are in one car. so you have 400hp in one car, but the car can only cary X weight due to the size of the car. but the good part is that the car can cary X weight to 200mph now..
i hope that lame anology makes it easier to understand.
Thanks Maxx...
Since my Hydors only have a head of ~75" would you say I needed to put them in series to make a 7' circuiot flow well huh? See here's my delima Ive got the 2 hydors ready to go in an external config mentioned in another thread. However I've also got an Iwaki wmd-30RLZT thats been tested and is just begging for a new home. damn I hate thinking about this crap!
-Brandon
I would think that two pumps in series would increase flow because of the increase in head capabilities. With zero head you get 450gph and with a foot of head you get something lower like 400gph. Now increasing the amount of head these pumps can handle would seem to get you somwhere between 400gph and 450gph, but higher than 400gph. Does this make since?
I'm going to test these pumps in series and maybe in parallel too. I will write back this weekend.
absolutely no point in parallel. the only time parallel would be a good idea is if the pumps have atleast 15 feet of head.
here is the perfect pump. 24feet of head, less than 20watt heat dump (preferably under 10), 12volt powered, and something like a max gpm of like 7gpm.
bandon, if your going to use hte md30 you need ALOT of rad power.. it dumps alot of heat into the system. to really get rid of all of the heat you will need 2-392 heatercores. otherwise the heat dump from it will cause you to loose alot of performance.
MaxxxRacer what do you know about the heat dump with a L30 and L35 hooked up in series. I have a Dual 120mm Black Ice Extreme ProII Rad with 4 high speed Panaflos in a push-pull configuration, but I like to keep the noise down so I run the fans at like 6-7v. Will these two pumps overwhelm my Rad? Sorry for the rediculus question, but if you could help thanks!
well hte l30 and l35 are low heat dump so it should be ok... btw why do u run two of them instead of one 2x120mm rad? having two of those makes you have twice hte fittings and more tubing which equals less resistance. but if you cant fit it i understand
you really dont need to have the fans that high or even have them in push pull.. just have them on pull config and only use two fans. you shouldnt see much of a performance drop at all and ur noise levels will go down.
not a rediculous question btw.
I didn't mean two rads. sorry. I just have one. I'll try two pumps later if I have time then I'll let you know how it works. The only thing I'm worried about is that the pump accepts 3/8 ID tubing and it has to go in to the fitting. On my L35 I have 1/2 ID tubing that slid over the fitting and it works fine that way.
well let us know how it works out.
while trying to convert 3/8 to 1/2 on the hydor L30 I found out that the push on connection used for the waterchill set up seriously restrict flow. Tommorow I'll go to the store to get better fittings then I'll both pumps running. Peace!
Well I hooked both pumps in series and it did increase the flow. I can tell just by looking at the turbulance in the resevoir. The temperature decreased by 1c but my overclock isn't stable anymore. Does anybody know what could cause this? Could it be EMF? Any suggestions?
no idea.. sometimes a little bit of temp improvement wont help overclock.. seeing as how ur on intel it should help more than amd.. this is considering ur on a flamming hot pressy..
Who knows, this overclocking experiance has been rough. I've been through two processors and two mobos. I had to learn to solder and do mods now I'm learning everthing there is to know about cooling. I've taken apart my computer like 100 times. Its like a bad crack addiction, but I like it.
yes it is like a bad crack addiction.. evil stuff these computers are.
Not to get of the subject or anything, but whats a normal delta between water and core temp.
Can anybody estimate how much head would be in a system with a RBX block a MAZE4 block and a Black Ice extreme ProII
for what flow rate?? to get good flow rates you want around 15feet of head.
Which one is better for dual pump setups?
2X 50Z, or 2X MCP350 (modded)?
Here is an email sent to me form Iwaki about the RD-30 this might help somebody. I don't think this is the pump for me.
Estimated life on an RD-30 running continuously is 29,000 - 36,000 hrs (based on testing with ambient temperature water).
Temperature rise of pumped fluid will depend on operating point and physical properties of fluid. We have not done any specific testing to establish an average, but it is logical that there would be some heat input form the radial and axial bearings as well as from the motor. Are you pumping a temperature sensitive fluid?
The RD-30 at 24V DC has a rated current of 3.2 Amps, starting current of 10 Amps. We have not done any hydraulic or overall efficiency ratings of the pumps.
If you have any other questions on this information, or an application you would like us to review, please let us know.
Regards,
Peter Brule
This is not quite true:Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
The DDC @12V has 13' of head, @13.5V it has 14.5' of head.
The 50z @12v has 10.5' of head, overvolted I don't know.
To find the best performing pump for your system... study the pumps' PQ curve against the other.
The truth is out there....
(I miss the XFiles!)
wang that was written before the DDC even existed.. but thanks for pointing it out...
and overvolting the DDC has been known to kill it...
wow iwaki rules.. ive never seen such a inquisitive email from a company.. btw that pump rules.. but uber expensive.
Ummm, ok WTF??? How can you spout untruths like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Why is it ok to overvolt the 50Z then?
Laing themselves have the pump running at over13v in thier PQ chart!!
So unless you know "more" about the pump than Laing themselves......
I don't know why you posted that.....
IF of course you have proof.... please post it.
I also value this forum as much as any other in the water biz.
Please try and be unbiased.
Thanx.
this is coming from several users at procooling. i know its rated for 13volts. but several users had reported that overvolting ther DDC had killed it. just relaying reports...
I visit Procooling and never noticed those posts.... links?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Straight from Laing's site: http://www.lainginc.com/DDC_Series.htm
Voltage Range: 8 to 13.2 VDC
Starting Voltage: 9 to 13.2 VDC
So, unless there's substantiated evidence.. I believe that comment was/is an irresponsible spreading of "factual" info.
Think of the "new to watercooling" reading such info.. and going away with perhaps a flawed picture of a fine piece of hardware.
As you can see, I have a hard time with FUD... nothing against you Maxxx.
I looked on pro cooling and couldnt seem to find the information. Its possible I was mistaken, but I recal hearing about some failures at 13.8 volts. Either way I make no mention of overvolting the DDC in the main guide, so no worries there.
One last thing. Overvolting the 50Z past 13.8volts has been known to make the impeller seperate from the impeller shaft due to the increased torque placed on it. I'm sure you aware of this as you are a pro cooilng member.
FUD?
A god friend of mine has been running two DDC's in parallel at 13.8 volts for 6 months now with out a issue. I can't seem to find any issues on the net (google). Some one should email Laing about max voltage operation. They are really good about answering emails too.
I've done alot of pump research before buying.... I always do. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
(I hate gettn ripped-off or buying a sub-par unit)
Reading of the "known" issue threw me for a loop. I still don't recall those failures tho. or the users involved.
Yes, I remember Cathar mentioning that about the MCP600/50Z.
FUD= Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt (spread of false info) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
I highly doubt that any of this info is false.
How do you overvolt a Z50? I'd guess that you use another PSU. But like what kind? I know of the Meanwell series, but how does those work?
that is the quote i was refering to about the mcp600...
to overvolt it you can buy a 12volt to 13.8volt setup up transformer, or a meanwell. i have no idea where in the world to get the step up transformer. i think cathar knows. you can send him a pm over at pro cooling. he is a member here but he doesnt come around much.
That's what I'm saying, I don't think you've read anything yourself about these DDC overvoltage deaths have you? you've got an opinion about something that we haven't seen ourselves, which may or may not be real.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowing
This is supposed to work well for one 50Z and cheap!
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=129-068
wang thanks for that 13.8dc converter. ppl always ask me but i can never find one for cheap... ill have to use that link from now on.
Np, I always love a good deal myself!
I still use my original RLQO as my main H2O pump due to its insane performance in a reasonably sized pump (just a bit larger than a mag3). They produce seriously mean flow and head while being dead silent. Pentair Aquatics really blows for changing the design.Quote:
Originally Posted by arDAWG65
why not add dual monster cores arDAWG? lol - you have the room available in that massive SUN Mass Storage Unit we used for your external box and the RLQO will push water through 2 of them with no probs (just tested that). Without the water cooling gear being in there, I can crawl inside that case and almost stand upright. we need to get the waterchiller mounted in there as well. :)
I want one of those pumps. How can you tell the diff between the new and old RLQO pumps? Btw Weapon, APC - Pet is one of my favorite songs.
How much dump you think this 4000HH has. It looks like it would kick azz.
I like the idea of 2 quiet one 3000s in series. Dump might be two high though. Here is the P-Q
http://www.pentairaquatics.com/produ...00_flow_ft.jpg
40w a piece.
any of the ones with names like 3000, 4000, etc. are the new designs from Pentair Aquatics.
the new PA design looks like this:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...=6&pCatId=9849
Pentair claims that the closest to the original design is the 4000HH but it uses a lot more power to get the same results (and likely has a lot more heat dump)
*goes digging through image folders*
pic of one of the original RLQO pumps attached. That was before I found the new fittings that are now on it so it is a bit more compact in length and height now as no adapters are used - overall, it is just a bit larger than a mag3. The white rear section of the RLQO is a Grundfos motor - which is entirely metal...they are heavy duty.
where to get them? tough questions - Rainbow was bought out by pentair more than a year ago and they changed the design immediately. There were a few left in aquatics shops for a while but they have all pretty much vanished.
Would you think the heat dump to be around 50% of what the pump consumes. Cause then for two 3000 you would be talking about 40w heat dump. I think my rad can handle that. What do you think?
http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-pmp-31.html?id=wkhCkT29 is this pump really that good? 13ft of head :o
thats the DDC. check out the first page of this thread where my guide is. it lists the DDC. its a very good pump.
thanks MR
no prob. ohh. page5.
Hi I am in the purchasing mood for a Iwaki pump to my watercooling but now I have some questions.
1. Do American stores carry the 50Hz version(230w) of the MD-20RZ or the WMD-20RZ? Becuse I have looked up the swedish branch of Iwaki and the want 280USD+Shipping:eek: for it, little to pricey for me:mad:
2. Could somebody explain to me why the 50Hz has two meters(6.56feet) less head than the 60Hz version? (Look in the attached file)
3. Is the Iwaki pump still a good choise after it has lost 6.56 feets of head or is the 50z better?
I hope for some informative answers
2. AC motors depend on the line frequency to set their speed, a pump running on 50Hz will spin slower than on 60Hz resulting in lower pumping performance.
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Butcher_
1. there is no 50hz version - the motor just runs slower at 50hz :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Pessimisten
so you just need a 220V or 230V model (or i guess a suitable transformer)
2. the speed of AC motors is governed by the frequency of the supply - so at 50hz us europeans/australasians get less speed and therefore less head....(slightly compensated for by lower power draw 40W not 50W)
3. depends on your rads - and what you are paying (you can do better for $280 that's for sure..)
you could go for a 30RZ (8M head at 50hz) if you have a good rad setup to cope with the extra wattage...
ebay is your best source of cheap iwakis if you're patient.... (no suitable pumps on offer atm) i got a couple of 30RZs that way
Yea I agree but almost all of the ebay sellers only ship to US and Canada and it's hard to convince the seller that the lands over the ocean also belongs to the US or Canada :)Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
no harm in asking - i find a polite question as to whether they will ship to you is almost always successful (that's how i got my iwakis in fact - my very first ebay purchases...) after all there's a limited market for 220V iwakis in north america, and it's not like you're from a country with a bad rep. for fraud/mail going missing or whatever. shipping to sweden by USPS isn't too bad either (a WMD-30RZ is 11 pounds shipping weight) http://pe.usps.gov/text/imm/immicl/immiclss_024.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Pessimisten
and i guess you may (or may not) have to pay swedish VAT (MOMS in swedish iirc) on the goods+shipping (+ any duty)
What do you all think of this pump. Its the Little Giant 2-MD-SC magnetic drive pump LINK
It consumes a lot of power but it says that the pump has a Thermally protected open fan-cooled motor with sleeve bearings. Also the Magnet housing acts as an insulator to prevent motor heat from being transferred to the fluid being pumped. Does anybody have any experiance or comments on this? :banana:
Oh yeah I dont mind to have 100w dumped into the case air because I have very good circulation.
I dunno, I'm now leary of using my WMD-30rlzt, According to some it uses in excess of 90 watts which atleast 50% gets dumped into the loop. So, I wouldnt think that the LG would be more efficient at dumping heat. Therefore I wouldnt think it'd be wise.
-Brandon
PS What do you not like about your Hydor's in series? Ive got 2 L30's Ive thought about bridging in series.
well when I tested them on my counter top I got around 1.77GPM with my blocks rad and res all hooked up, but I'd like to get more flow so I'm searching for the perfect pump? I found the little giant pump because i was just searching around google to discover a pump nobody has used yet. People have used Little Giants but I'm not sure about the one in my previos post. I'll be finding and posting other pumps that I haven't yet been used in watercooling so that we may discover the perfect pump. If it hasn't already been found.
I would think based on the proposed application of that LG model and on the other statements I have posted from theLG website that there is less than 50% dump on that pump.
This is the pump I hope to be buying soon. Blue Line 20 HD I'm jsut not ready to commit to one pump yet though.
-B!
Brandon_Tyler I'm no expert on this subject but that pump seems like it would work well.
Oh I know it'lll work well. I just need to rehash the design of my external enclosure to make damned sure thats what I want. :)
-B!
the blueline 20hd is exactly the same as a iwaki Md20.. like exactly. its even designed by the former head designer of iwaki. its the reason that the pump looks almost exactly the same.
Max, do agree with me that my WMD 30RLZT is going to heat up to much to be effective in a dual core system, unless it were two of Wepon's Monster cores?
-B
MaxxxRacer please comment on the Little Giant I posted previously. I know you know a lot about pumps. What do you think the heat dump will be like based on their statements in my post.
That pumps specs are similar to the Iwaki MD20. However, it has a higher wattage (heatdump) but higher flow. Overall I'd say it's not worth it.
EnJoY what do you think this statement means? Do you think it is just marketing poo or that the pump really dumps most of its heat into the air? Or is this just the code for normal pump stuff?(Thermally protected open fan-cooled motor with sleeve bearings. Also the Magnet housing acts as an insulator to prevent motor heat from being transferred to the fluid being.) The only reason this cought my eye is that the pump produces 300GPH at 9ft head. I wonder if my blocks could even handle the pressure. I would have to leak test for a week or something. (Watercooling joke. get ready its hilarious) I've been looking for pumps nobody has used yet and I've come across alot of pumps that can actually pump 300GPM of terd. I think intel may be using these pumps to cool their marketing department. Its been running hot lately. I have no clue why I thought of this. Peace!
enjoy the wattage is 45.. same as the md20...
yasou, that pump is very similar to the MD20 and the blueline that was just mentioned. the 3 of them are nearly the same thing. they are all rip offs of the MD20 :p:
but that little giants heat dump is gonna be way wya wya too high to make it worth using. the MD20 would be a much better option.
Brandon, the MD30 is not worth using unless you have a very large rad like the monster core. not sure if you would see gains over the 20 with a 302, but you would see gains with a monster core.
yaou: the pumps based off the iwaki designs have a relatively low heat dump as the impeller is seperated from the motor housing. this is why they only dump about half of their heat into hte water unlike pumps like hte DDC and 50Z which dump about 95% of their heat into the water.
9ft of head is equivalent
MaxxxRacer would you say that the statements I posted were describing normal pump features or something different in the design of the pump but pretty much useless because the heat dump is still very high. Something that I've noticed is that pumps with high flow consume alot more power, even if they have low head. I'd like to find a pump with high head and flow but is aircooled. I thought that is what I found. I guess I'll search further. It could pay off in case I need to find a terd pump or something. :hump: :explode: :cheer: :gay: :cheer2: :poke: I'm going crazy
Honestly there are pumps made for pumping terds. Could you imagine studying terd dynamics. I bet you could learn a lot of usefull crap in that class. :banana:
what do you mean by (9ft of head is equivalent). On the spec sheet I think it said something like 3%$GPH@9ft
Thank-god the DDC only consumes about 8 watts!Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
yasou just get an iwaki.. it will make ur life easier...
lol. Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Wich pump shall i take.
Alphacool AGB-Eheim 1000 Station = 55euro
Or
Eheim Universalpump 1048 220 Volt + reservoir = 73euro
most certainly the 1048, although both of those pumps are way underpwoered.
and btw dont get one of those aluminum resivours. get a normal acrylic one. the aluminum ones will cuase corrosion and are just dumb.
Could you explain (why the 1048) whats better :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
If i take the 1048 i will buy this reservoir Cape Coolplex 25 external
Well thats the european way, we don,t like to much power :DQuote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Normaly we use a 600 L/h pump, 1000 l/h is considered verry heavy here.
the maximum flow rate doesnt mean a whole lot. especially for the EU blocks and tubing. head pressure is the biggest thing. EU gear is so restrictive you need a very high pressure system to overcome this.. even an iwaki md20rz is gonna get choked up.. scary though if u ask me.
the 1048 is better in this case as it is not dumping all of its heat into the water like the other pump. both of the pumps are underpowered so that isnt much of a consideration at this point. its all about the heat dump. when your pump is submerged in the water it puts all of its heat into teh water.. but the 1048 wont do this. it will dump a little over half of its heat into the water (this is an estimate of course as eheim isnt about to release heat dump numbers as there is no reason to).
if you get that res make SURE you use anti corrosion as it has aluminum endcaps. one thing ive noticed with most of the parts on that site you linked me to is that everythign uses aluminum which is a big no no if you are using any copper in teh system which you will undoubtedly do.
btw take a quick read to my introduction to watercooling guide if you havnt already. it will explain some if of the points im talking about here in more depth..
Do you have any idea which Iwaki MD-20 performs best? RLT, RLXT, RZ, RZT or RLZT?
My guess is that the RLT and RLXT perform less than the Z's but which of those are best?
Edit:
Here we go... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Don't forget to tell that this pump is the Swiftech MCP600/AquaXtreme 50Z; looking at what you posted above it make it seem that you're talking about the Swiftech MCP350/Laing DDC.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Don't forget the link. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
That should be 8W, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
It also dumps less heat and makes less noise. :p:
the RZT performs best with restrictive systems.
the RLT is best for really unrestrictive systems
all the others should not be botherwed with
did i not put the link in there??
"It dumps less heat and makes less noise."
you refering to the 50Z and D4 comparison?
Not the answer I was hoping to get; thanks anyway. I think it's rather stupid that even Iwaki doesn't give us any information about the difference between their pumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
I'm an idiot. :brick:Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
BTW, according to this review, the D4 has more head than the MCP600/50Z. :wth:
yah... i dont know what happened with that mcp600.. but if u read his 50Z review ull see the oposite..
what do you want as far as an asnwer regarding the iwakis?
I hadn't read that review yet; I'm pretty sure the reason is that he's using a MCP600 Rev. 1 pump.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
What the difference is between pumps like the RZ, RZT and RLZT.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
Those are all the same lol, just different abbreviations.
The real model numbers are:
RLZT - High head pressure
RLT - Medium everything
RLXT - High flow
^^^ what he said :p:
Those are exactly the same?
Then why does customaquatic.com sell 3x the same pump and has 1 out of those 3 in stock and 'dropships' the other 2? :confused:
The T stands for threaded inlet and outlet and the non T has barbs.
Hi,
I have asked this before but haven't got a answer that I'm satisfied with :p:
I live in Europe and we only have 50hz not 60hz in the wall outlets and becuse of this the MD20RZ losses 6.56feet in head and with this information it's looks like the MD30RZ is more like the MD20RZ for us Europeans in the terms of head :)
In the pumpguide MaxxxRacer tells you that using this pump is bad from cooling perspective but with the 10hz decrease in pump performance is it still a bad choice? Or should I look for another pump like the aqua extreme50z?
If you have a big enough rad (120.3/monster core), the MD30RZT is fine running at full 60hz. At 50hz, it's even better, but I'd still reccomend atleast a Thermochill 120.2/BIX2/Weaponcore 302.
Thank you for that answer. Now I only have to find someone that could perform the role of a middlehand so I can buy one from an Ebayer that only sends it inside the US :( .Quote:
Originally Posted by EnJoY
Anybody up for it?
i can help you out with EU shipping pessiministen..
120.3 isnt enough for the 30Z.. monster core is though.. but getting the 30Z still is not really worth it imo..
if u want to go crazy like that get an RD30
Even when it's underpowered? To much heat in the loop?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
its acctually worse at 50hz.. the motor speed runs less but the voltage is still high.. the pumps were relaly never designed to work at 50hz but they do run so iwaki didnt make two versions of the motors and just gave different pq curvers for 50 and 60hz.
Thank you for that answer.
MD30RZT is more powerful than an RD30, higher flow, higher head. A 120.3 Thermochill would be able to handle one just fine. With a 120.2 it only brings down performance by 1c or so, so a 120.3 would be able to handle it just fine.
Even with the heat output in the loop?Quote:
Originally Posted by EnJoY
My statements were made considering the heat dump in the loop. So, yes. :cool:
enjoy i really have to disagree with that one.. niksub1 has a 120.3 and with his rd30 he turns it down to 18 volts due to the high heat dump at 24 volts.. and he gets better cooling performance.. tells you something there..
Well I of course haven't done testing on this. But I figured since cathar tests his pumps with his cpu block, 7/16" id tygon and a 120.2....and the results he gets are all within 2-3c of each other. I figured a 120.3 would make all the difference in the test results. However, your statement certainly makes me rethink my statement. I don't have my links with me right now, so I can't compare the stats between an MD30RZT (60hz) and an RD30 (24v).
So whitch one should I choose? MD30RZ on 50hz or Aquaextreme 50z or some other pump? I'm going to use a thermochill HE120.3 or a Weapon dual core or maybe the monster core so whitch pump for me :confused: ?
well u need to decide on the radiator first.. lol.. it makes a huge diff...
Ok. let say that I choose the monstercore, is that enough for the MD30RZ? Or if I choose the dual weaponcore is that enough or should I choose the 50z over the 30RZ on this one?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
monstercore... then 30RZ no problem!
daul core... its hard to say... 30RZ i would think would give better performance. but if you have a low heat output system (like 90nm amd and a weak video card) then it wouldnt be a good idea to go 30RZ 20RZ woudl be better for that.
Thanks for those answers. It's leaning for that I get the Monstercore(only have to get the shipping cost from Weapon).Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxxRacer
This is not the type of Iwaki pump that I should buy, right?
Max head seems rather low. :(
about the AquaExtreme 50Z.. are there no revisions to worry about like with the Swiftech MCP600?