Gary, just makin sure u can see everything, i know my dad is having a hard time helping me w/ solders and he's only 53! And thank you so much for your advice, this thing would be a POS if you hadn't guided all of us!
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Gary, just makin sure u can see everything, i know my dad is having a hard time helping me w/ solders and he's only 53! And thank you so much for your advice, this thing would be a POS if you hadn't guided all of us!
You are very welcome. :D
On mounting the cooler: Let's imagine that we could build an insulated partition, all the way across, between the cooler and the rest of the system. Let's imagine that our partition is sized so that we can put the original window A/C cover back on, separating it all into two compartments as it was originally.
The cooler could be strapped to the partition, perhaps with a spacer in between to make it easier to open the cooler lid. and if we wanted we could put the whole thing in the window (at least in the summer), keeping the noise and heat outdoors.
then would i have to cut out the control unit and part of the shroud, then put the top unit back on? The cooler sits a good 5-6" off the side, i think i need to shave that shaft on the motor back as far as i can, and then cut part of the shroud that was intended to suck air in over the evap. I'd take it completely out, but then i'd have to build a new motor mount for the condenser fan. ( i wanna just have a switch for the fan, anyone know how to do that pm me) I would love to get it completely put back together kind of, but the cap tube would also be a little big for it
jamaljaco & gary
yea i will reduce the rez. it might develop into a piece of plastic roughly the shape of the evap and probably as close to the actual evap as i can manage. the only thing bothering me with this idea is the size of the pump. either i fit the pump inside that new plastic bowl with only the pump inlet passing through the plastic or i'll have to make that plastic part small enough to fit the pump inbetween evap and plastic.
hm. on another thought, what would be the optimal setup for a radiator type evap like those from the a/c units? i'd think it would be best to have the rez barely big enough for the evap to fit in. so with mrnuke's setup, i'd put something in the empty corners of the rez, to further limit the amount of coolant - and maybe fit the pump into that "something" just so the inlet reaches the coolant and the outlet can be reached.
lol, i work out a lot, and it was a PAIN to get that pump as far down as it would go, i thought i was gonna break the cooler......
Keep in mind that I can't see it from here, so you will be the better judge of what can or cannot be done. :D
Here's another thought: If you look at the original cover, you can see which part is intended to be outdoors and which part is intended to be indoors. The indoor part of the cover could be cut off. Then you could make a partition that goes beyond the width of the unit, mounting the cooler and the controls to that.
Why do you want a switch for the fan?
i'm redoing my water chiller which would hit -20C and i'm now aiming for -40c i'm redoing the evap and wanted to know if i should use a spiral evap or one with 180 turns on it
the res is a iglo playmate if that helps
also i'm getting a digi-cam for Christmas so then i can post some pics of it
As I recall, your chiller has two major problems:Quote:
i'm redoing my water chiller which would hit -20C and i'm now aiming for -40c i'm redoing the evap and wanted to know if i should use a spiral evap or one with 180 turns on it
the res is a iglo playmate if that helps
also i'm getting a digi-cam for Christmas so then i can post some pics of it
1. The cap tube is WAY too restrictive.
2. The reservoir is WAY too big.
And then there is a laundry list of lesser problems.
also there i was klink on the suction line
and the new res i have holds 2 gallons instead of the old on which had 5 gallons
also the evap will be smaller so the cap tube might work better and if it doesn't i will change it to .028 right now its 6ft of .026
i'm also going to try to get R22 to work in this sys
I want a switch for the fan so i can turn it on when i put the compressor on high cool. I think thats why i got it so cheap is that the fan doesn't go on the higest setting. If i could make a switch for it, i could set the compressor to high cool and have the fan blowing across the condenser and hopefully get better results. I'm currently lookin for a piercing valve and a set of gagues. How low do you think she can go?
The size of the evaporator has nothing to do with it. It's about the load and the refrigerant. The .028 cap tube isn't big enough either. Using R12, you need about 10 feet of .042 cap tube.Quote:
also there i was klink on the suction line
and the new res i have holds 2 gallons instead of the old on which had 5 gallons
also the evap will be smaller so the cap tube might work better and if it doesn't i will change it to .028 right now its 6ft of .026
i'm also going to try to get R22 to work in this sys
Using R22, you will need about 8 feet of .036 cap tube.
so if i stay with i have now i will not beable to get past -20C
Frankly, I am surprised that it gets that cold, but I am not surprised that it takes forever to get there.Quote:
so if i stay with i have now i will not beable to get past -20C
This is not like a direct die cap tube. A chiller has a much heavier heat load, therefore it needs a lot more refrigerant flow, hence a less restrictive cap tube. And R12 has less high side pressure to push the refrigerant through, so it needs to be even less restrictive in order to get sufficient flow.
this is alittle off topic but would a 1/4 hp compressor make a good compressor for a water chiller
and do car AC condensors work well on water chiller
Yes, and so would a 1/8 HP compressor, or a 100 HP compressor. And a car A/C condenser is large enough for about ten of these.
sorry i meant would a car evap work as a good condensor for my water chiller
Ok, lets all remember to keep these projects as simple as posible to achieve the desired results. I did most of the obove quoted stuff because I was comfortable with that work. the simplest way to solve your cooler mounting problem would be to mount the whole unit (beer cooler included ) on a sheet of plywood.As for the electrical you would want the fan and compressor on one switch I think. If your not comfortable with that leave it the way it is and just figure out how to remount the switching.Quote:
Originally posted by mrnuke
then would i have to cut out the control unit and part of the shroud, then put the top unit back on? The cooler sits a good 5-6" off the side, i think i need to shave that shaft on the motor back as far as i can, and then cut part of the shroud that was intended to suck air in over the evap. I'd take it completely out, but then i'd have to build a new motor mount for the condenser fan. ( i wanna just have a switch for the fan, anyone know how to do that pm me) I would love to get it completely put back together kind of, but the cap tube would also be a little big for it
ok Sky,are you talking about making an insert or using an object to put into the existing resevoir to displace the coolant? if so great idea.As for your pump I wouldn't pump through or breech that object thus risking leakage. And for the pump can you run that inline? Mounting it outside the resevoir.Running a pickup tube to the bottom of the coolant? Forgive me if I'm a little slow this morning.;) :p:Quote:
Originally posted by sky
jamaljaco & gary
yea i will reduce the rez. it might develop into a piece of plastic roughly the shape of the evap and probably as close to the actual evap as i can manage. the only thing bothering me with this idea is the size of the pump. either i fit the pump inside that new plastic bowl with only the pump inlet passing through the plastic or i'll have to make that plastic part small enough to fit the pump inbetween evap and plastic.
hm. on another thought, what would be the optimal setup for a radiator type evap like those from the a/c units? i'd think it would be best to have the rez barely big enough for the evap to fit in. so with mrnuke's setup, i'd put something in the empty corners of the rez, to further limit the amount of coolant - and maybe fit the pump into that "something" just so the inlet reaches the coolant and the outlet can be reached.
when using R22 would 5ft of .031 workQuote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
The size of the evaporator has nothing to do with it. It's about the load and the refrigerant. The .028 cap tube isn't big enough either. Using R12, you need about 10 feet of .042 cap tube.
Using R22, you will need about 8 feet of .036 cap tube.
Yes, that should get you pretty close.Quote:
when using R22 would 5ft of .031 work
also would a Danfoss TL2.5F R134a compressor work well in a water chiller and could it be filled with R22
here is its PDF
http://www.danfoss.com/Compressors/p...3_Cd42b622.pdf
opps sorry i posted the wrong compressor its the danfoss TT2.5F
here is the PDF
http://www.danfoss.com/Compressors/p...3_Cd42q622.pdf
With a compressor that small, I wouldn't expect to get much below 0C, even with R22.
i could get a Tecumseh RKA54 9100btu Compressor instead
would that be loud tho
if i put it in a box and inslute the box will the sound be alot lower
i'm going for an insert, so i can dump my pump in there. then i'll cut a hole into it to put the inlet nozzle through there and finally seal it off.Quote:
Originally posted by jamaljaco
ok Sky,are you talking about making an insert or using an object to put into the existing resevoir to displace the coolant? if so great idea.As for your pump I wouldn't pump through or breech that object thus risking leakage. And for the pump can you run that inline? Mounting it outside the resevoir.Running a pickup tube to the bottom of the coolant? Forgive me if I'm a little slow this morning.;) :p:
btw the pump doesn't need to be submerged, so it's either way. but i'm probably going to fill the insert with water anyway.
ok here's a pic of what i think it might look like
http://www.abi02.de/deepblue2k2/pixx/_remake.jpg
the red part is the insert, the blue parts are pump and tubing. the pump will actually not have any tubing attached to its inlet, as the throughput almost halved when i had it running with a piece of tube there. the inlet nozzle is a pretty strong piece of plastic that protrudes a bit, so it's ideal for sealing.
hm all of this could even be used to dampen the vibration of the pump some more. - as it is right now, the vibration of the pump travels through all of the reservoir and that's not a pretty sound. so i'll probably put that insert (figure something like an icecream can for now) on some rubber feet and drop it in the rez. then the pump will be placed on another set of rubber feet which should quiten it down to inaudible. the seal used for the inlet-nozzle will have rubberish to do the same :).
i got my digi-cam today here is a pic of my sys and res
Res
sys
and then my rig
and the tools
I just finshed brazing it here are some more pics
sys
res
ghetto brazing
1st time i used my new mapp/oxy torch and wow it makes the job so easy compared to a mapp gas touch
brazed 2 3/8 tubes together without union:toast:
should i surmage my pump or run it inline with the res
fixed my subcooling problem
tape can go along way
I wouldn't fill the insert with water. That would be the same as if you had no insert at all. putting an extra load on the system. I would insulate the extra space.Quote:
Originally posted by sky
i'm going for an insert, so i can dump my pump in there. then i'll cut a hole into it to put the inlet nozzle through there and finally seal it off.
btw the pump doesn't need to be submerged, so it's either way. but i'm probably going to fill the insert with water anyway.
ok here's a pic of what i think it might look like
http://www.abi02.de/deepblue2k2/pixx/_remake.jpg
the red part is the insert, the blue parts are pump and tubing. the pump will actually not have any tubing attached to its inlet, as the throughput almost halved when i had it running with a piece of tube there. the inlet nozzle is a pretty strong piece of plastic that protrudes a bit, so it's ideal for sealing.
hm all of this could even be used to dampen the vibration of the pump some more. - as it is right now, the vibration of the pump travels through all of the reservoir and that's not a pretty sound. so i'll probably put that insert (figure something like an icecream can for now) on some rubber feet and drop it in the rez. then the pump will be placed on another set of rubber feet which should quiten it down to inaudible. the seal used for the inlet-nozzle will have rubberish to do the same :).
yep, i guess i got carried away. of course the insert would have to be insulated if i were to fill it with water - which seems to be a stupid idea now that i think of it ;)
monday will be the day of the first test run with g48 instead of plain water. it will show where the temps are headed - atm i can get around -6°C with no load and tap water. depending on its success i have to start thinking of a cover for the rez, since g48 or paint thinner don't really smell all that good ;). atm i'm thinking of clear plexi with some sealstring or silicone around the edges and where the tubes pass through the top.
right on ,looking forward to the results.:DQuote:
Originally posted by sky
yep, i guess i got carried away. of course the insert would have to be insulated if i were to fill it with water - which seems to be a stupid idea now that i think of it ;)
monday will be the day of the first test run with g48 instead of plain water. it will show where the temps are headed - atm i can get around -6°C with no load and tap water. depending on its success i have to start thinking of a cover for the rez, since g48 or paint thinner don't really smell all that good ;). atm i'm thinking of clear plexi with some sealstring or silicone around the edges and where the tubes pass through the top.
You can't get much below 0C with tap water. Once it starts making ice, the temperature can no longer drop. Instead of being a chiller, it becomes an icemaker, with all of the system capacity being used for that purpose.
I would suggest using windshield washer solvent for the coolant. This is a mixture of methanol and water. If it starts to slush up, you can strengthen the mixture with gas line anti-freeze, which is pure methanol.
Sky , I use this its ethanol denatured with methanol and I mix it with antifreeze ( ethylene glycol) which also contains corrosion inhibitors. I've changed my ratio from what I had in my earlier posts from 70% antifreeze to 30% alcohol to a mixture of 50/50 it gets about 5 degrees cooler and pumps way better. I tried the windshield washer mixture as Gary mentioned but it slushed up and would hardly pump at my temps -25 to -30c . however you may not have this problem with your higher temps.Oh , and whatever you do for a cover make your tank so you can get in and out of it a lot , If your like me you wont be able to resist the temptation to look in there a often :DQuote:
Originally posted by vlad
Use 100% denatured alcohol. you can get it at any hardware store, Ace/ trunvalue/ homedepot, look in paint dept in solvents.
yep i noticed that. was funny to see actual tap water reach -6°C for a short time - later on temps got back to around 0°C. i thought it was impossible for water to get below 0°C (physics and all) but then again, who knows what chemicals are in your average tapwater anyway. and i'm not going for windshield washer stuff, since that tends to foam - heard that from a lot of people and have seen it first hand on my windscreen ;).Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
You can't get much below 0C with tap water. Once it starts making ice, the temperature can no longer drop. Instead of being a chiller, it becomes an icemaker, with all of the system capacity being used for that purpose.
I would suggest using windshield washer solvent for the coolant. This is a mixture of methanol and water. If it starts to slush up, you can strengthen the mixture with gas line anti-freeze, which is pure methanol.
i'm going to use g48, which is a coolant used in engine cooling circuits. a 1:1 mixture of destilled water at that should reach -40°C, straight g48 will go down to -70°C - not that i need for those temps. and besides it also includes some chemicals that stop corrosion inside the coolers - especially in circuits combining cu and al.
anyway, thanks for the tip!
i went through a good deal of diy-stores today and all i have to say is BAD IDEA. only nutcases around, i was starting to have temper-problems ;). besides that. they didn't have any of the stuff i needed. sp i'm gonna try windshield solvent now for a quick test. maybe i'll try again later this afternoon, but all those stores were crowed with people as if tomorrow the stores would cease to exist (argh).Quote:
Originally posted by jamaljaco
Sky , I use this its ethanol denatured with methanol and I mix it with antifreeze ( ethylene glycol) which also contains corrosion inhibitors. I've changed my ratio from what I had in my earlier posts from 70% antifreeze to 30% alcohol to a mixture of 50/50 it gets about 5 degrees cooler and pumps way better. I tried the windshield washer mixture as Gary mentioned but it slushed up and would hardly pump at my temps -25 to -30c . however you may not have this problem with your higher temps.Oh , and whatever you do for a cover make your tank so you can get in and out of it a lot , If your like me you wont be able to resist the temptation to look in there a often :D
anyway what kind of tubing do you use? so far i have some cheapo pvc-tubing, which is a major pain since it's just too easy to bend and also contains some materials that given enough time will be washed out of the tubing and will then jam my coolers. i tried getting pur/pun type tubing but to no avail. also neoprene for isolating my mobo / gfx-card wasn't around - so i guess this day was pretty useless so far.
ah and the cover of my machine will be made from clear acryl-glas that i got some time ago. and i love the idea. i know i will be looking at it alot :D
Du mu¦Â winter grad anti-freeze, es soll sehr gut arbeiten f¨¹r dich und es ist gut zu fast -25c. Ich liebe Deutsch!
:stick: <- meQuote:
Originally posted by mrnuke
Du mu¦Â winter grad anti-freeze, es soll sehr gut arbeiten f¨¹r dich und es ist gut zu fast -25c. Ich liebe Deutsch!
Yea ,Sky, I'm using this, Tygon (formula R-3603) It has a temp range of -49 to 158F. It resist most all inorganic chemicals. It also resist cracking , aging and colapse . the stuff in the pic is .500 ID X .750 OD with a wall size of .125 . Its largly sold as medical equipment and is a bit expensive at $3.00 per foot U.S. You might get lucky and find a distributor near you ;) I order mine from the Danger Den just down the road a bit from where I live. hehe .:D
:DQuote:
Originally posted by mrnuke
Du mu¦Â winter grad anti-freeze, es soll sehr gut arbeiten f¨¹r dich und es ist gut zu fast -25c. Ich liebe Deutsch!
funny.. every club i've been to in the states the guy at the door would pull out some german sentences on seeing my id ... is it common to learn german in school or do you have relatives over here?
@jamal
i hope you don't mind me shortening your nick ;).
i've been looking into tygon r3603 last week and they sell it only in 15 meter rolls for about 86 euros. that's way more than i need - and on browsing the pages of ismatec sa (tygon factory guys) i found something that bothers me. in the specs they say r3603 incorporates softeners (don't know if that's the correct term) and is basically yet another pvc-mixture. and it is said that r3603 isn't recommended for use with solvents - solvents here referring to stuff as in paint, etc.
that's why i started to worry about you running paint thinner or similar stuff through it.
it should be ok for alcohols or similar stuff, but i spent some more time at their site and browsed for other materials and found tygon mh 2075. that doesn't incorporate softeners and is resistant to solvents of any type. the temp-range is given as -70°C to +52°C (not exactly my range...). so now i'm trying to find a reseller that lists this. so far i only found about 4 shops in all of germany (!) that offer r3603 - and those are mostly medical equipment suppliers, just as you said.
anyway. my windshield solvent test wasn't as successful as i hoped. temps went to about -10°C since that stuff started slushing. i had the chiller run for some time and had to do other stuff, when i returned i had a fat piece of ice in my rez - doh. so that mixture was crap and it stinks pretty bad. i didn't have enough of it (and if i had i would have been woozy all day) and had to add water - too much it would seem ;)
so next up is the test with real car-coolant - that should give me an idea of what temps can be reached.
@gary
is it better for the compressor to have the fans (2x 120 mm deltas with ~95cfm each) pushing air through the condenser, or having them run at low speeds with less than half the volume pushed through the condenser?
btw happy new year from 2004 already :D
With the system under heavy load (during pull down), the difference between the air temperature entering the condenser and the air temperature leaving the condenser should be no more than 14C. If the difference (called delta-T or dT) is more than 14C dT, then it needs more airflow. I like to see the condenser dT less than 10C.
i guess i'll have to test that soon but i'm pretty confident that i can get to within 10°C dT, maybe less. i messed up with the fans in my last post. each fan actually has 106cfm throughput. the condenser came with a single fan worth 95cfm throughput, so if i run those 2 replacements at full speed they have more than doubled the original throughput - and the exhaust air is barely warmer than ambient. i'll post the actual temps some time soon, maybe later today.Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
With the system under heavy load (during pull down), the difference between the air temperature entering the condenser and the air temperature leaving the condenser should be no more than 14C. If the difference (called delta-T or dT) is more than 14C dT, then it needs more airflow. I like to see the condenser dT less than 10C.
thanks Gary very useful info, I have something to measure, may have to redesign my shroud, hehe.Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
With the system under heavy load (during pull down), the difference between the air temperature entering the condenser and the air temperature leaving the condenser should be no more than 14C. If the difference (called delta-T or dT) is more than 14C dT, then it needs more airflow. I like to see the condenser dT less than 10C.
just checked I'm right at 10-c assuming the air going in is ambient.Quote:
Originally posted by jamaljaco
thanks Gary very useful info, I have something to measure, may have to redesign my shroud, hehe.
Sky, found some distributers of DANGER DEN stuff in Europe.Quote:
Originally posted by sky
...i'm trying to find a reseller that lists this. so far i only found about 4 shops in all of germany (!) that offer r3603 - and those are mostly medical equipment suppliers, just as you said.
btw happy new year from 2004 already :D
At least one of them sells the Tygon R3603 that your looking for..heres a link or two.....good luck! :)
Denmark:
http://www.coolerkit.dk/group.asp?group=31
Germany:
http://www.cybernetic-design.net/catalog/index.php
Heres a link to Danger Den themselves, and their other European distributors:
http://www.dangerden.com/base_pages/...ors_Europe.htm
Good Luck in finding what you need! BTW....Happy New year 2 U 2!! :) :) :) :)
Hello Sky, Jamal is my name;) My kind g/f posted some links for the r3603 as you have seen. Yea I'm familar with the mh2075 and wouldn't mind trying it but I think it would be overkill for our application and a bit expensive.the mh 2075 is for much stronger chemicals like methyl- ethyl-ketones , xylenes and such.I work with these solvents every day and know their properties first hand. The r3603 has excellent resistance to milder chemicals such as methanol as you have stated. I have had my r3603 in my coolant for over a month and see no signs of degrading .Quote:
Originally posted by sky
:
@jamal
i hope you don't mind me shortening your nick ;).
i've been looking into tygon r3603 last week and they sell it only in 15 meter rolls for about 86 euros. that's way more than i need - and on browsing the pages of ismatec sa (tygon factory guys) i found something that bothers me. in the specs they say r3603 incorporates softeners (don't know if that's the correct term) and is basically yet another pvc-mixture. and it is said that r3603 isn't recommended for use with solvents - solvents here referring to stuff as in paint, etc.
that's why i started to worry about you running paint thinner or similar stuff through it.
it should be ok for alcohols or similar stuff, but i spent some more time at their site and browsed for other materials and found tygon mh 2075. that doesn't incorporate softeners and is resistant to solvents of any type. the temp-range is given as -70°C to +52°C (not exactly my range...). so now i'm trying to find a reseller that lists this. so far i only found about 4 shops in all of germany (!) that offer r3603 - and those are mostly medical equipment suppliers, just as you said.
anyway. my windshield solvent test wasn't as successful as i hoped. temps went to about -10°C since that stuff started slushing. i had the chiller run for some time and had to do other stuff, when i returned i had a fat piece of ice in my rez - doh. so that mixture was crap and it stinks pretty bad. i didn't have enough of it (and if i had i would have been woozy all day) and had to add water - too much it would seem ;)
so next up is the test with real car-coolant - that should give me an idea of what temps can be reached.
btw happy new year from 2004 already :D
Yea , I wouldn't add any water to the coolant just a mixture of engine coolant and methanol. Equal parts or a bit heavy on the methanol side works best for me, and yea it produces a vapor that is unpleasant and not to healthy :slobber: Make your cover, but you really should insulate it .
Being a professionally engineered system, its not too surprising that the condenser sizing/airflow combination is just right. When you take the next step, adjusting the refrigerant charge, this will drop the delta-T a little, lessening the airflow needs. And should you go beyond this and replace the cap tube for lower temps, this will drop the delta-T substantially, further reducing the airflow needs.Quote:
just checked I'm right at 10-c assuming the air going in is ambient.
Understood, but seeing how I had to relocate everthing ,omit the shroud ,reconstruct the shroud, alter the fan speed switching, I thought it might be prudent to check it out,:DQuote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Being a professionally engineered system, its not too surprising that the condenser sizing/airflow combination is just right. When you take the next step, adjusting the refrigerant charge, this will drop the delta-T a little, lessening the airflow needs. And should you go beyond this and replace the cap tube for lower temps, this will drop the delta-T substantially, further reducing the airflow needs.
I agree wholeheartedly. Professionally engineered or not, when I am checking out a system, I monitor a minimum of 8 different temperatures, and sometimes as many as 12. None of these temperatures tell me what I need to know. It is always the temperature differences, condenser delta-T being just one example, that tell the story.
It is indeed prudent to check it out.
Right, I do something similar everyday at work as a painter,For ideal application I have to monitor ambient,surface,coating,
temps.Humidity and dewpoint. Its the relationship to the ambient that tells me whats going on the individual temps. Alone they mean nothing. understanding humidity and dewpoint has helped me alot in considering insulation factors and such. Anyone who has carefully monitored their temps on their computer should have a fair grasp of this but after a lot of reading i'm not so sure some do, hehe..
Indeed, everyone should be aware of the dewpoint in their area. The insulation and/or heaters (ugh) must keep all surfaces above dewpoint to avoid condensation problems.
But beyond this, the better the insulation, the more system capacity is devoted to cooling the evaporator rather than cooling the ambient. Even if I lived in the driest desert on Earth, I would overinsulate everything in sight.
Insulation is our friend. :D
Not in the attic I just crawled out of it isn't :)
LOL... I know just what you mean... fiberglass hell.
How are the window A/C chillers coming, guys? I don't want to hear that you're happy with the temperatures you're getting. You have a 1/2 HP compressor. We can leave vapo's in the dust, and kick the crap out of a few prommies, too. :D
Shhheeeeeesh! Gary don't you sleep?
:D
Yea Gary < just spent the last few hours clocking, can never get what I want , my temps are just fine...
I wish I could just walk right in to home depot and grab some line taps, manifolds and few guages and a 20 lb jug of hooch. But it just dont work that way . Ive browsed the net looking at the 608 test but man those folks want money just to get a gander at the study books.,LOL , I could do the r134 thing but I want the goods
I pass out once in a while. Does that count?Quote:
Shhheeeeeesh! Gary don't you sleep?
Not unless you make it to rapid eye movement for at least 20 mins.Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
I pass out once in a while. Does that count?
The 608 test is open book, online. The degree of difficulty is right up there with the drivers license test. Keep in mind that it is not a refrigeration test. You are getting a material handling certificate. You just need to learn the EPA rules and regulations.
Maybe we can get Runmc in here to give us a few pointers. He passed it a while back. And there may be others in the group as well.
Just as soon as I can aquire some gear we can start a new thread and call it step 2,Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
How are the window A/C chillers coming, guys? I don't want to hear that you're happy with the temperatures you're getting. You have a 1/2 HP compressor. We can leave vapo's in the dust, and kick the crap out of a few prommies, too. :D
Uh , Gary, LOL , Ive never had a DL ever.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jamaljaco
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
WOW... Very nice work. :D
I like your way of making a compartment for the returning coolant. How did you get it to stay in position?Updated pics, I was draining my res to try a different coolant mixture. Thought I would show how the Danner pump ended up in the cooler. This was the only way I could get it in there and still have room for the hoses.Quote:
Good morning Gary. Thats pretty much just where it wanted to be . It did seperate from the side wall towards the bottom of the tank positioning the Danner pump (which went in first) took care of the that.
I had to add an elbow to clear the evap. The pump rest about 3 inches below the coolant surface.
This pic shows a little better (than the pics on page 7) the two seperate compartments .
OOPs forgot the pic :D
After seeing this post I went searching for online testing and found www.epatest.com . They are EPA certified (I confirmed this, they are on the EPA's list of Technician Certification Programs ) to test for 608 Type 1, 2, 3, and universal but only the type 1 testing is available online the other are closed book with a proctor. They have a nice pdf that covers the core and type 1 stuff which you can keep open during the test. The test is $24.95 and you are allowed 3 hours :rolleyes: to complete the test although it should take a lot less time to complete. Passing each section requires correctly anwsering 21 of the 25 questions (84%), there are 2 sections for the type 1 cert (the core and type 1 sections).Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
The 608 test is open book, online. The degree of difficulty is right up there with the drivers license test. Keep in mind that it is not a refrigeration test. You are getting a material handling certificate. You just need to learn the EPA rules and regulations.
Maybe we can get Runmc in here to give us a few pointers. He passed it a while back. And there may be others in the group as well.
My only pointer is read the majority of the pdf document before you start the test.
The one question I have is what refrigerants does the type 1 cert allow you to purchase? I'm sure 404a is allowed but what about 410a?
@geekgoddess & jamal
almost forgot to thank you for the links ;) - i've browsed through those sites and found some interesting bits. as for the tubing.. atm i'm throwing around various tygon type tubes, but now i got a good starting point for my inquiries.
anyway. i haven't been working on my chiller since i've been waiting for parts. i spent some time preparing the vmods for my gfx-card and did some oc-tests. 2406 on air, 2480 boot into windows but not much more - damn my psu needs to be replaced 300w :D
SKY,
Always glad to help a fellow Geek! :D
how much would a window AC unit cost? I'm thinking about chilling my TEC and maybe doing some direct dye. How much would a decent AC unit cost? Gary do you have any I could buy? since your local.
No I don't Slick, but they are relatively cheap. Places like Walmart have 5200 BTU window A/C's for less than $100, brand new.
Don't let the low price fool you. These little window A/C's have some real cooling power.
Many A/C's have multi-speed (actually multi-HP) fan motors. Once you have trimmed the refrigerant charge, it may be possible to go to the lowest fan speed, thereby reducing the noise.Quote:
just checked I'm right at 10-c assuming the air going in is ambient.
Funny you should mention it. My fan is at the highest speed right now .when I rewired everything I omited the the fan speed control leaving the extra wires intact but caped off . I think I'm getting sick of the sound as it seems to get louder every day.LOL. I've been reading the manual for the 608 test type 1 , Very dry reading :slobber: It puts me to sleep about every other paragraph. Still I trudge onward ,Igotta .:DQuote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Many A/C's have multi-speed (actually multi-HP) fan motors. Once you have trimmed the refrigerant charge, it may be possible to go to the lowest fan speed, thereby reducing the noise.
I know exactly what you mean. If I ever start writing like that, somebody please shoot me... lol
BTW, airflow requirements diminish as the coolant temperature drops. You need full airflow while it is pulling down to temperature, but once it is down there, you could probably switch to low speed and still maintain delta-T @ 10C or less.
On the other hand, you may find there is little difference between high and low speed, since the evaporator fan has been removed. The speed of a multi-HP motor is heavily dependent upon load. With no load at all (fan blades removed), all settings have the same speed.
Eventually, you will probably want to replace it with a nice quiet muffin fan or two.
Right now you need about 225-250 CFM for pulldown, but with the proper cap tube, trimmed charge, and good insulation, this could be cut nearly in half.
Another possible strategy would be to use two fans, and turn one off when the coolant is down to temperature. We could automate this using the temperature control that came with the A/C.
As the coolant temperature comes down, the liquid line temperature will also drop. We could strap the temperature sensor to the liquid line, insulate it, and have it turn one of the fans off and on as needed.
so could i get a 5200 BTU AC and get a baker evap block 4 my video card, then get an AC shop to change the evap to the baker block for me? There are plenty of refridgeration places near here.
Yep. In addition to the block, you will need a cap tube that is matched to the load using R22, so we need to know the load. You will also need the flexible suction line.
Thinking Bowman and Baker need to add such things to the kit. It would be very handy to be able to purchase an assembled block, captube, and suction hose. The assembly could simply be hooked up to a condensing unit, evacuated, and charged.
My thoughts exactly.... as I assembled one this afternoon. I thought that these should be offered as they are the most difficault part to assemble correctly.
Bowman has announced that this is in the works. :D
You can't imagine how tempted I am to come out of retirement. If I could afford it, I would now be building an auto-cascade prommie mod... LOL
DO IT GARY!
Got a prommie and a blank check?
Great post !!
Jamal , can you post back some temps when you get that GPU in the loop.
Whenever you guys are ready, I have been doing some research and have found a couple kickass refrigerants that can put your system up into the R502 range, making them competitive with R404A and R507 systems:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...threadid=26839
I sure will. Hey! welcome to the sickness!:D I was kinda wanting to do a vmod on my 5900 before i chilled it but i've been a little chicken.:eek: was thinking if i could find a block I might do it in the morning > You might just have been the motivation I need to get offf my @ss an do itQuote:
Originally posted by ehorn
Great post !!
Jamal , can you post back some temps when you get that GPU in the loop.
Let me know when you are ready. Maybe you can tempt me. :DQuote:
so could i get a 5200 BTU AC and get a baker evap block 4 my video card, then get an AC shop to change the evap to the baker block for me? There are plenty of refridgeration places near here.
Wow! very cool , just read yur post , gotta take that 608 test I read the manual got to read it again with a highlighter pen it was so poorly layed out I couldn't retain enough of it.I would still want to tune my system up first and learn in steps. awsome goal to shoot for though.So yea, price and availability of these fine refrigerents???hmmmm?Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Whenever you guys are ready, I have been doing some research and have found a couple kickass refrigerants that can put your system up into the R502 range, making them competitive with R404A and R507 systems:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...threadid=26839
From what I've seen R404A, R507, R402A, and R408A all seem to be about the same in cost, not sure about availablity but you can order them online from www.r22.org. Of course they added R507, and R410A after I ordered a bottle of R404A. :(Quote:
Originally posted by jamaljaco
So yea, price and availability of these fine refrigerents???hmmmm?
how much colder is r502 than r404 or r507?
R402A at 1 atm boils at –56.5°F (–49.2°C).
R404A at 1 atm boils at –51.6°F (–46.5°C).
R408A at 1 atm boils at –46.3°F (–43.5°C).
R507 at 1 atm boils at –52.1°F (–46.7°C).
Of course boiling point isn't everything so here is some additional info on them.
All of these refrigerants are designed as R502 substitutes, therefore all of the evaporating temperatures are within a few degrees of each other. That said, with all else being equal, the coldest would be R402A, then R507, then R404A, then R502, then R408A.
They are all close enough to make this a difficult decision. We need to consider the other factors, such as high side pressures and oil compatibility.
Great!! You've done a fine job with the system and the postings/pics... Most appreciated.Quote:
I You might just have been the motivation I need to get offf my @ss an do it
I have been looking for a cost-effective, cooling system and I think I have found it in this thread. Flexible, multi-component cooling.. with some very respectable temps...
at a fraction of prommy pricing.;)
It has been a great read thus far.. I was sorry to see Pimpsho snap the vapo line. Though i am hopeful he and mrnuke will have their systems up and running in no time.
Here's another good source for refrigerant information:
http://www.refrigerants.com/frame.htm
Move your cursor to "Products", click on "Refrigerants".
Interesting info Gary and Gleep. Gary, with regards to R408A/R402A what are your thoughts... R408A sounds like a winner. Would R402A be dependent on the quality of the compressor??
We need to consider the strength of the compressor and the skill level of the person doing the job.
With a compressor designed for R12 or R134A, using any of these refrigerants puts high side stress on the compressor valves, yet many have successfully used R404A and R507 with these compressors. Then again, we may not be hearing from those who destroyed their compressors.
R408A would be the least stressful and R402A the most stressful. None of these refrigerants would be a problem for an R22 or R404A compressor.
Then there is the skill level. Removing a compressor, replacing some oil, and re-installing the compressor may sound easy. It is not. R408A does not require it. R402 does. And on some compressors it is possible to replace oil without removing the compressor.
Well said... As I would not be in this post without the following direction...Quote:
Then there is the skill...
Quote:
What I consider to be the best first project for a phase change noob. Transform a window A/C into a chiller, then add a piercing valve and start learning (by reading and doing) about refrigeration.
Of course there are a few other things that go into selecting a refrigerant such as Glide this is the temperature diffrance between the bubble point and dew point, If the system is engineered to take advantage of this it can become more effecient. Another is the whole reason for section 608 of the clean air act. And this is the phase out first of the refrigerandt that destroy the ozone and then the evential phase out of global warming gases such as r22, All of these gasses are no longer available in Europe. R22 blends such as 402,408 ect aren't sold and are illegal to install in equipment. In the us this phase out of r22 blends is on a accellerated schedule. This means that we will see starting this year a floor tax and an accelerating federal tax. soall blends based on their proportion of global warming/ozone destroying gasses will recieve this tax. R12 is now over1200 for thirty ounds R 22 blends (hotshot,408,402) will be over 220 per 0 pound cylinder this year while r507 and 404 will only rise as a normal function of the markets..
Ahhhhh... the heavy hand of government strikes again.
This is good to know, chilly. So eventually, the only alternative will be POE oil.