I hope my preferred vendor gets them in stock before I make a large order.
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I hope my preferred vendor gets them in stock before I make a large order.
Great info, thanks for that! If that post you referenced is correct, then the SLI fittings you linked to would work perfectly. I'd order them right now, but then I would have to take the whole thing apart, install the SLI fittings, then try and re-use the snap rivets. Shoot... if I had enough extra rivets I'd do it for sure. That is definitely a MUCH better solution to joining the rads together than tubing.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Z3VH
With all due respect to your business vision Gabe, IMHO, if the product does take off (and I really don't see a reason why it shouldn't... it is a really good idea) providing pre-cut tubing might not be the best option.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
As you already provide with those stubby fittings (which do have a cost attached to them), and you've already said that you are not properly tooled to do so (which means, atm is a blank canvas), and considering that tubing is a perishable item, it might be worth looking into making something like the BitsPower D-Plugs.
I'm sure a designs that fits both 25 and 37 mm fan spacing is possible (Koolance does it with the RAM fittings, so does BitsPower with the D-Plugs, using a slightly different solution), it's a permanent fixture (only the O-Rings are perishable, and those are really easy/cheap to source), and a much more elegant solution.
And saves you the headache of researching the automated tube cutting tool and the investment on such contraption.
As I said, just a suggestion. There might be hidden obstacles that I fail to see.
One of the obstacles is the QC on the rads themselves (as mentioned earlier in this thread) which would mean the fittings might not line up 100% if they were hard mounted as opposed to tubing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrToad
Hmmm... that's a bummer. I'm used to 1/10 mm tolerances. Sometimes I forget not everything is manufactured to that standard :(Quote:
Originally Posted by zlojack
Oh well, nvm
The SLI Bridge I posted looks like it would fit for both 25mm, and 37mm...Quote:
Originally Posted by MrToad
At its shortest (18.0mm), it barely fits for a 25mm fan (18.4mm spacing), and at its longest (30.0mm), it could theoretically fit a 37mm fan (30.4mm spacing) with only a .4mm washer on one side of the fitting.
Sounds to me like there is a market for a flexible D-Plug design... If this is even truly an issue, then all it would take on Swiftech's part, is 'binning' their radiators for the "Premium Stack" model... make sure the radiators they sell in that kit meet the tolerances required to square up that connector.Quote:
Originally Posted by zlojack
One option would be to have the vendors selling the rad have a drop down box to add a short length of tubing below where they add fittings.
Can anyone suggest some decent 25mm open corner fans. I was planning on some medium Yates but they are closed corner.
Also, DD SLI fitting. Iwas thinking these would work as well. I have ordered a s of them. I will post the results when I get them.
The problem with the "Premium Stock" is that it's going to raise costs because you're going to pay more for QC, which sort of defeats the purpose of having two lower-cost rads in a sandwich.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Z3VH
Is it really that hard to cut the tubing to the right length? I suppose I'll find out soon enough, but it seems to me that we're getting awfully nit-picky here. Something as simple as cutting the tubing to the right length and we're asking to be spoon fed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Metasheep
It's for people who don't already have 1/2"ID tubing. See pneubmatic's post about having to go to Home Depot to get the right size tubing for the barbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by zlojack
What place sells the radiator but doesn't also sell 1/2" tubing? :confused:
I would say that in addition, what watercooler doesn't keep spare tubing on hand, that is crazy talk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vapor
That's the thing. Order a foot of tubing and you're good!
(That said, I wonder if I have any scraps of 1/2" ID lying around... I might have to take my own advice :D)
zlo....welcome to my nightmare....:rolleyes:;)Quote:
Originally Posted by zlojack
That's what I'm saying. Have a message saying that 1/2"id tubing is needed to connect the rads and have a drop down box with a foot of 1/2" tubing the vendor sells. Most stores already have a drop down box to add fittings, this is the same deal. It adds convenience and reduces the number of late night runs to Home Depot.Quote:
Originally Posted by zlojack
Im just glad no one is laughing at me anymore about this.
Then again i could care less what others think.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=204399
I didnt come up with the idea but was the first to put up a rough diagram
and google sketch up of it, or a decent sketch up.
Had people from other forums laughing at me for this.
You certainly won't catch me laughing. It's saved me from having two loops instead of one. Very good idea and solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
what exactly do you mean by "this" the clear rad ends or the sandwiching?Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
I mean i think i was the first or the first in that thread to come up with a good diagram of what everybody was talking about regarding the sli rad concept.
In other words to put a picture of what everyone was trying to explain.
Seemed some didnt really understand.
I understood easy as ive seen it almost 30 years ago.
It wasnt my idea i just put it in pictures to make it easier for peopleQuote:
Originally Posted by pneubmatic
to understand what we were talking about.
And alot of people kept saying the heat from the first rad would heat the second and it was a waste of time.
Okey there are 2 ways to get this working.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
Theory, so if im wrong, i welcome a good debate in it.
The first problem is how there all connected with a 25mm or 38mm space in between. Remind you guys of the infamous paralell sli setup?
The problem with this setup will be in people who run high pressure. The reason for this is because if your spacing is wider, you'll bypass the first rad with high pressure.
The 2 ways i mentioned to compensate for this is to make the stacking smaller. Gabes idea and theory was to make a simple dual pass rad into a quadpass rad. Problem is in a normal rad these passes are connected very short. If you put a bridge or a passover your first rad wont get enough flow for it to be effective.
Second way is to lower your flow at the rad. This is why i want to see tests on this setup, to see possibly, your best pump might be a D5 at setting 3 in this setup.
Overall my original estimates is 33% low to 50% high performance gain @ a cost 125% more then a regular MCR320.
If your hoping for the 2x gain like you would in serial, keep dreaming.
Ask any tester what the delta air in and out on a rad is. They will tell you its very small unless you got silenx fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
So no stacking is a good idea, you just need the perfect paralell or you need a low flow going though gabe's paralell.
Oh F paralell would work in this setup too, but would require 2 stackable rads.
I too cant wait for more test results of this type of set-up.
And yes i cant see 100% gains but 30 to 40% or more would be great and probably will be in the ballpark.
There are many possible set-ups like.
1 a shroud in between the two rads with fans in a push/pull on the outsides of the rads.
2 simple and basic fans in between both rads.
3 Fan>shroud>rad>fan>shroud>fan>rad>shroud>fan:eek:
But that would be WAY thick and probably overkill.
It would be a wild set-up though.
I wonder if #3 could give almost a 100% gain?:shrug:
I would like to see these kinds of test
Snipe paralell, or F paralell, have each rad get the same flow so you get a perfect 1/2 decrease at each end. You'll get 75-80% effiency off that second rad then.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
MY ESTIMATES!! i may be grossly wrong.
Main thing im talking about with the shrouds/spacing is to eliminate the dead spots of a fan
directly against the fins of the rad.
Plus one could experiment with different/mixed rpm fans.
I cant wait to see all the different test/combos users are going to try.
A good test would be with a smoke machine for air flow.
Well i think everyone needs to remember, we got a full on 500lb pure musscle football defense lineman called AMBIENTS.
No matter how many rads you have, this thing called AMBIENTS is something one can never break using a conventional RAD.
A lot of you guys need to ask yourself the question, do you really need this cooling potential?
The close your get to ambients the harder it is for any gains or improvement.
True ambients make ALL the difference in the world.
I have achieved single digits on air before and my ambient room temp was around
24c. :)
Unless you're using a TEC or something similar, please elaborate on how this is possible :stick:Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
Easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metric
Reverse the rear 120mm fan and voila.
And yes zero condensation.
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/b...ture198zz1.jpg
Thank you for saying this...Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
Its no secret. Everyone should know this.
Actually there should be a separate thread just for ambients and how they effect everything.
NaeKuh, it looks like you are exactly right. At least, with the results I've gotten from my rad sandwich so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
It's been surprising what's happened.... to me, at least.
When I first setup the sandwich, I saw idle temps drop by five degrees, and loaded temps by eight. I was pretty excited. Now, however, I'm not seeing these same results. Honestly, I have no idea why. My ambient is still the same, and nothing else changed, but as of last night, my idle temps were down to a two degree improvement over the single rad, and only four degrees at load (Prime95).
So today the rest of my fans came. I now have 9 fans on the sandwich. And it doesn't matter how fast or slow I turn them, my temps stay exactly the same: 80 at load and 40 at idle. This is on an i7 920 @ 3.6, ambient at 22 C, Coolant temp in reservoir 33 C at load, and 28 C at idle. Not exactly the results I was expecting. I'm very tempted to take the sandwich apart and run them in series. I honestly think that, as you speculated, I'm bypassing my first rad.
Edit: just to be thorough, here's my total setup: Res - eheim 1250 - Swiftech Apogee GTZ on cpu - EK GTX295 WB - MCR320 Rad sandwich - res. My flow rate is exactly one gallon per minute.
Yet another edit: it would be great if Swiftech would include hardware necessary to plumb the rad sandwich in either parallel or series. I'm going to try and track down the necessary connectors to leave it stacked, but plumb it for series flow. I hope it can be done... if anyone could suggest fittings for doing this, I'd really appreciate the help. The hard part is going to be getting fittings small enough to fit between the two rads since I'm using 25 mm fans.
Well, yeah... but you'd probably be surprised how many don't (especially when it comes to points of diminishing returns).Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
not to bash swiftech, whose products are always innovative, good performers and competitively priced, but i suggest you all to have a look at this:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/Forums/...d.php?t=220874
its not MCR-220-QP-STACK, still explains some things about stacked rads :up:
I think the point is partially lost about why this concotion was brought to market. This stackable concept isn't designed to take the performance crown, although being competitive with the leading rads is an added benefit.
This is designed to squeeze more performance despite space constraints. Most people do not have a colossal case. For the average slim full tower case, there is a limited amount of radiator space. To a moderate degree, this stackable radiator concept helps add more radiator capacity for a seemingly maxed-out situation.
This is not revolutionary... its just evolutionary.
Man, I am glad I am reading this because I was about to do a 9 fan sandwich. This will save me a ton of room. Would running this in series with only 3 fans still be enough airflow?
Also, if I am only using three fans connected to a sunbeam rheobus, what fans would work well? I am more concerned with having enough CFM at load than I am with noise, because I can always turn the fans down when they arent needed. I have some 1900rpm Scythe Kraze fans right now and these things seem to move a lot of air.
Yeah thats why there should be a basic thread about it and the dramatic effects it can have on cooling.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Petra
you could yell it in some peoples ears through a loud speaker and they still wouldn't get it....:stick:RRRQuote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
Kinda like overclocking you existing cooling sys,
Same as a CPU or GPU which gives slight gains for not
so much money.
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
RRR wasnt stupid just a fanboy of MM and TC so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
Oh yeah EK supreme.
Despite the negativity lately in this thread and the negative test report in the other, I still pulled the trigger and bought it. We shall see how it performs. I like tinkering with these kind of stuff. But then again I am a test-engineer :)
This makes my head hurt. I was just about to grab one of these. Now I'm not too sure about it. :dammit:
What to do...what to do....
Not to mention that this product was requested by XS forum membersQuote:
Originally Posted by IanY
There was never any question in anyone's mind (at least not in ours) that 1/stackables could never beat separate rads and 2/stackables would suffer a pressure drop handicap compared to a dual row with equal fin count.
the idea was and still is to improve performance in a space constrained environment and at low cost to exiting MCR owners (10's of thousands of them...)
instead of buying a new dual row and throw away your MCR, just get a second MCR and stack it. BANG for the BUCK Gentlemen [EDIT, and Ladies] is particularly important these days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I was one and am still interested in one.:D
Will probably get one within a month or so and
dump my TC rad.
Hey Gabe....
When are you going to release some formal or informal data from your in house testing?
Bang for the buck is where it is for me, for sure. Even if I end up having to break up my loop, or just run my sandwich in series flow, I'll still end up having spent far, far less cash on my setup than if I went with, uh, "other" triple 120 rads.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I didn't mean for my last post to sound so negative... yeah, I'm a bit disappointed by the overall performance, but there is still so many different configurations I can try with this hardware. I DO NOT regret my purchase in the least.
Next week.Quote:
Originally Posted by NJHC
I will try to have test data available at the same time as gabe to compliment the in-house testing.
Now, I'm off to an appointment with a Dremel and some D12SH12's in my garage (D12SL12's are available in open corner). :up:
Aye its good fun butchering fans :DQuote:
Originally Posted by skinnee
Thanks SkinneeQuote:
Originally Posted by skinnee
Here's my guess:
Assuming yates for the slow speed and some good 38mm types for the high speed tests:
1000RPM = 5% gain
1550RPM = 8% gain
3000RPM = 15% gain
:shrug:
Quick question about my rads. I just got my stackable in today from Jabtech and matching up to my older one revealed a difference in fitting hole size. Is my original MCR320 rad a early model? Do all the current MCR320's have the G 1/4 fittings? If so I will just save my original for something else and buy a new MCR.
You nailed it. All of the current MCR's use G14 fittings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonni Nitro
Also, I want to put my res in between the pump outlet and the cpu block. Will that cause a pressure/flow drop? I was going to go pump>res>cpu>nb>rads>pump.... thoughts?
Anyone try hooking these up in series yet? I am wondering if forcing the fluid through both rads is better.
My old MCR-QP has the plastic barbs epoxied in. Anybody know how to get them out? I would have to in order to use a stackable...
try this at your own risk.. carefully heat them up evenly with a little fire then crack them loose... since epoxy melts before solder, silver solder, brazing or alloy's you should be fine. oops edit part.. didn't see the plastic barbs thing.. drill them out untill they are thin and pick the rest out..
or take a tiny tim blade (1/4 inch hack saw blade) and cut through the plastic untill just before it hits the metal threads top and bottom and pick them out..
You want the res connected to your pump inlet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonni Nitro
It'll cause additional pressure drop so it'll probably only be better if you have a strong enough pump.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonni Nitro
Hopefully I can get the pictures of my worklog up by Saturday evening, if not Sunday noon. I'm putting a 220 stack with a normal 220, and another PA120.1 in series. I originally wanted to put a PA160 as well, bt I worry about pressure drop. It sure is a lot of fans.
Well I am in I just bought a Swiftech MCR220-QP from newegg, and the MCR220-QP Stackable from Performancepcs... I plan on throwing this monster in my new Antec Twelve Hundred case.... I am wondering what would be best for cooling it.
1. Leaving a 120x38mm fan in middle only
2. Putting two empty fans in middle (shroud) and doing a 4 x 120mm fans on both sides @ 50-70CFM?
Any word on when the MCR120 stackable will be released?
Care to venture a guess of how many times I scream explatives while getting fans mounted? :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
I'm using screws to mount the fans, with the rivets I'd have a hell of a time getting them out and fans mounted again.
Skinnee, your testing the stackable right? when do you think you'll have results?
Check his sig. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by lazy
I'm also interested in the MCR120 stackable release date.Quote:
Originally Posted by tuanster1119
Perfect for a Quiet HTPC setup, or any mATX case; where
space is very limited :D
Stackables really aren't the best for 'quiet' anything since they need ~1200RPM fans just to match a single rad. :eh:Quote:
Originally Posted by topaimz
Stackable config turns the MCR320 more into an "MCR320-GTX" :p: Gain high RPM performance at the expense of low RPM performance.
EDIT: though I'll admit that fans within a sandwich definitely seem quieter. My two San Aces in my shrouded sandwich at ~2650RPM are quieter than the 1 shrouded one at 2450RPM outside of the sandwich.
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vapor
But I don't think you can fit anything except a single 120mm radiator
stacked in some cases, like my Mini P180, or one of the Silverstone sugos.
Hello to all:
Earlier I promised that we would have hard data on stackable usage this week; unfortunately we had another equipment setback. After replacing the faulty RTD which took almost 3 weeks to arrive, we found out that our fluke digital thermometer was out of calibration, and to add insult to injury the calibration lab we usually deal with went out of business. We finally found another lab, and dropped the meters yesterday. These guys have a one week turnaround.
So, stay tuned.
thanks for the update, i'm still holding off getting the upgrade mcr320...
Gabe,
You have MCR120 Stacks coming to market?
Sweet...I have a bit of time then. I've been getting my butt kicked at work this week thanks to a lovely Telco. I'm behind on my test schedule and can hopefully make up some time this weekend and get the tests rolling on the MCR320 stack.
PLEASE BEAT US TO THE PUNCH ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnee
Yes we do, in fact they came in but we rejected them all for faulty paint. The new batch is coming sometimes within 2 weeks. If you have to have one, you can always call Michelle and buy a (cosmetic) reject.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
I'm trying to. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Got any cosmetic reject 320's ?????Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Axis
Quote:
Originally Posted by axis
He actually wrote it for the sole purpose of reading it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Thank you very much for the info, Gabe. I'll wait for the new batch to arrive, and would be looking towards two 120 stacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Not sure what you meant by that. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Spankyfart
I figured since Jab-tech just had a sale on cosmetic rejected RX320's, thought they might have some too.
Axis
I think it's a great thing that you actually do include those fittings with the radiator... :)
When I've bought all my wc-gear, I have no money left for fittings. :p: