Printable View
Not an error. Read Anand's conclusion... according to them, crossfire has the potential to scale higher than SLI. Once AMD releases new drivers, I'm sure you will see near or close to perfect CF scaling in more games.Quote:
Originally Posted by natty
No error. Look at the resolution it was tested on. That's where multi-gpu comes in handy bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by natty
woohoo they are all gone from newegg, didn't see that one coming ;)
I'm glad I was the first to get my 2 x HIS :D i did the rush processing so maybe mine will be the fastzors shipped lol
The scaling in that picture is better than perfect. How is that possible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clairvoyant129
My mobo has one 16x and second 4x PCI-e lanes.. how much performance loss would I encounter if i paired 2x4870's in cf mode?
I understand your point, but look at other games where CF scales really, well near perfection.Quote:
Originally Posted by natty
But you are right, I'm actually not sure either about how it had better than perfect scaling, I'm just going by what Anand said.
I'm not debating crossfire scaling. I'm pointing to what looks like an error in that pic. Perfect scaling there would be 111.4 fps for the dual 4870's. And it shows 118.4 :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Clairvoyant129
that was posted by Derek Wilson, an editor on Anandtech about the scalingQuote:
greater than 100% scaling is due to margin of error combination for both single card and dual card tests in the vast majority of cases.
we also tested single card performance on an nvidia system and crossfire performance on an intel system, so the different computers will also add margin of error.
two card solutions generally don't scale at greater than 100% except in extraordinarily odd situations (where rebalancing loads might help with scaling on both individual cards -- but that's odd and rare).
I think you just want to point out an error in his statement more than what you see in that pic. I think the word perfect should not apply when comes to computuer stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by natty
Wow, that thing occupies what, 5 slots??? Or don't i see it right... do you have a horizontally angled picture how tall that cooler actually is?! Anyway, in a crossfire setup these would be impossible, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
Just asking out of curiousity.
For myself, i wait for new powerplay results with Cat 8.7... and rivatuner of course.
Probably not a good ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by RedBull78
should i wait for the 4870X2 or get 2pcs of this now?
is it dumb for me to ask if my 2900xt full coverage DD waterblock will work on the 4870? im not scared to mod the block as long as the core and ram are in the same spots.
Don't wait if you're not planning to run 4gpu's in your system. As for me, since my mobo has only one true 16x pcie I have no choice but to wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by bugkalot
why are they putting margin of error into benchmarks? still confused :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by zerazax
And what about the fact that my mobo doesnt have pcie 2.0?Quote:
Originally Posted by BrowncoatGR
I can't believe im already behind even tho i upgraded my pc not too long ago...Wow.
After reading about 8 reviews, yours was probably the best. Especially mounting an aftermarket HSF, nice info and very helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
I think [H] did the worst job. 3 games tested? And they state that is more than enough, I strongly disagree.
Because they probably did more than one run and certain scenarios, the fps in CF was much higher than usual, driving the average of those runs higher and thus appearing to scale > 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by natty
Either way though, the scaling is apparently excellent in those games
I personally thought HardwareCanucks and TechReports were the best overall in terms of technical overview, quality and quantity of games, and settings and so on. Kudos SKYMTL!Quote:
Originally Posted by eleeter
Whatever they did it was pretty stupid. People assume they are looking at raw numbers taken from the same exact scenario. And as they admitted, better than 100% scaling only happens in 'extraordinarily odd situations'.Quote:
Originally Posted by zerazax
:down: for anandtech
Nothing is identical, but they can be very similar. So what if the second-slave HD4870 were a few percent better then the master card? You would see an increment of over 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by natty
Not possible unless they were clocked differently or had different timings. This is a methodology issue, not a hardware issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eson
If that was the case then they should put a footnote at the bottom to explain that one card was better than the other. Anyway, I think zerazax already solved this mystery for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eson
Anandtech's testing has been sloppy at times, I think this is another instance of that.
It doesn't take anything away from the 4870, if that is what some people are getting at, that the review is flawed and the 4870 is not all that. Read the other 20 reviews, the vast majority agree that AMD has the best parts in their price category, especially the 4870. It largely invalidates the GTX260, which needs to drop to $300 to level things out.
That's why I look at all the reviews then make the judgment for myself based on the general consensus. And in the case of the 4870, the general view overwhelmingly is that it matches the GTX260 easily and at $100 cheaper, it is clearly the best buy
Yea, I'm not trying to put down 4870, just the pinheads over at Anandtech for artificially inflating results.
My HD4870 overclocking for the HEXUS review (even though the clock speeds didn't make it into the final review) weren't great 760MHz/4100MHz (yes only 10MHz extra on the core)Quote:
Originally Posted by grimREEFER
Apparantly theres an issue with the HD4870's fan control much like the HD4850, where the fans aren't spinning up like they're meant to so the overclocking will likely improve when a BIOS update is released (as sapphire have told me they've done for the HD4850) or when you use an aftermarket cooler.
Thanks for the compliments guys. Believe it or not, I appreciate the feedback from the community much more than anything a manufacturer can say. Glad to know the review is going to good use.
This depends on quite a few factors such as:Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbornchild
- space between PCI-E slots
- Height of fan
- Orientation of HR-03
You can mount the HR-03 in two ways; one wrapped around the card with the heatpipes "straddling" the card and one like the way I installed it.
It takes up a total of 4 slots.
as soon as atitool gets their stuff together well be all set to oc these effectively :D. I think that once thermal paste is reapplied and the oc's get goon were gonna see a 280 beater in quite a few instances
4870 review
http://techreport.com/articles.x/14990
Agree with everyone else, great review @ HardwareCanucks. Min FPS and AVG FPS, Several resolutions, AA and quality settings, OC'ed CPU, 4Gb ram, dx9 vs dx10 etc... Everything needed to understand how the cards perform in various situations :)
yes awesome review , the graph that shows heat before and after the cooler is replace is amazing :DQuote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
That hardware canucks review is good. Looking at COD4 at the higher res, makes you wonder what the 4870 performance would be with 1GB.
I'm hoping this will force nvidia to allow SLI on intel boards.
So what is the best ddr3 intel board to run crossfire with ?
WTF is this idiot talking about???Quote:
Originally Posted by Clairvoyant129
This is why I responded to this thread to begin with, and yeah if you are going to say 4870 has taken the ultimate performance crown then you are wrong.
All the fanboys (like this one) saying that "in half of the cases, 2x HD4870s destroys 2x GTX 280s."
What complete and utter bull:banana::banana::banana::banana:. What part of middle school math was too hard for you?
Perkam,Quote:
Originally Posted by perkam
My issue is with the posters who are claiming that ATI has won the ultimate performance crown over and over in this thread and hurling personal insults at anyone who doesn't agree with them.
ATI has not won the ultimate performance crown. I am not talking about price, or die size or anything other than the fact that Nvidia is still number 1 for the highest maximum performance.
I'm not saying that he's right, but you're not right either: you just linked 1x4870 vs. 1xGTX 280 ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ceevee
congratulations are in order then for winning that <5% of the market , people who pay 600+ euros on a Gfx are silly..Quote:
Originally Posted by ceevee
Maybe someone with your personal financial constraints would be silly, please do not judge others that may not have them. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Papu
Anyway I'm done with this thread.
cya.
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/9088/moneyir8.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by ceevee
the way some people talk it makes you think that they own vast amounts of stock in ATI or Nvidia
look at who posts scores on ORB, its was nothing but 8800gts for quite some time.
the question of whos the performance king per price range is different than whos got a card with more stuff packed into it. when the 4870x2 comes out we will see what ati has for enthusiasts, until then its midstream only
i bought 2000$ worth of ati stock at $6.50 a share, im hoping after they finally make a worthy card it might go back up to the pre-merger pricesQuote:
Originally Posted by natty
About time :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ceevee
GTX280 will be the top performance till R700 comes into life.
So in 1 month ATI dominate all market segments in price/performance if Nvidia donīt chage drasticaly their prices, but guess what, GT200 is very ineficient and very big to drop so much in price.
So the next 2 Quarters will be so hard for Nvidias has those that ATI had with R600.
well see about that in 2 quaters, who benefits and who fails. :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by v_rr
hehhQuote:
Originally Posted by v_rr
he bought a GTX 280 as shown in his sig, therefore its understandable that he is defending it
i waited out (and wheww... thank god i did that) to see what RV770/R700 brings then i will make my decision, but judging from these results im leaning toward AMD this time, coming from a long time NV owner ... getting a bit tired of having to buy nv's board for SLI
GTX 260 and 4850/70 will be very popular i would imagine
It´s prety obvious, but I won´t go in those predictions :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornet331
For this quarter nothing will change. Only for the next 2 quarters.
AMD is targeting 50% in discrete desktop until the end of the year, that´s the only thing that I know they want.
I think that they will do that with HD 4800. Strong performance/low prices is the key and they have conditions to done well that.
not sure if you ve seen these results... 12k vantage score with just 2 4870's... not X2's ....Quote:
Originally Posted by ceevee
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/148...age/index.html
:shrug:
crossfire doesnt scale well ...
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...nce/page11.asp
hopefully future driver fix that ... or that could have been a bottleneck of some sort .. res. , aa , cpu
also in nv sponsor games like COH, Lost planet the 4000 series dont perform well
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...ance/page8.asp
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...ance/page9.asp
although many 360 port games perform better on AMD
seems like 280 perform well in DX10, but doesnt perform much faster in DX9
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...nce/page16.asp
wow the overclocking result looks awesome. 4870 @ 790/1100 is almost an GTX 280! almost that is
Looks like nVidia shot themselves in the foot on this one. And thank god too. $650 for a video card...Please. No wonder they rushed em out b4 the 4000's. See how many suckers they could reel in for an extra 3fps. Great job AMD. I'll take one and later on when I need more horsepower I'll buy another and stick them in my INTEL mobo.
lol some what true i suppose, but the 280 does have good DX10 performance, it just that for $650 and about 1.6 years after G80 i am expecting a lot more though ....
and again thank god i didnt rush out and buy one ... especially now that ebay has a 10% off on 1 purchase deal ends b4 june 30th ... i almost bought one lol
yeah i cant wait to get my intel board and am read to ditch sliQuote:
Originally Posted by Peakr
:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by ceevee
ATi has the single card performance crown with the 4870X2, which is all that
matters
Kudos to the review, well laid out and nice format, and test rig :D I m really glad you showed what can be accomplished with an aftermarket cooling solution... Its too bad no one could get a 260gtx to you guys hehe.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
I m pretty impressed with these results as a whole, especially in cod4 which is where i spend my time :) I ll wait it out though until the 4870x2 comes out, as my gx2 is still holding on ok for now :)
so many reviews and none used s.t.a.l.k.e.r. numbers:confused:
"au pair" of falout 3, clear sky is the game that i'm anxiously waiting and it still uses x-ray engine:rolleyes:
regards
I'm sure the 1GB versions will sort that out,Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_J_Fry
since most bench tests were done with high res+AA
the 280 has a 512mb advantage and the 4870 still has equally good AA hit
Sure, 4870x2 might be a nice card WHEN it actually becomes available, but ceevee was talking about the fastest single card solution that you can buy RIGHT NOW (regardless of price or anything).Quote:
Originally Posted by waver_01
But, sure, if you know a place where you can buy the 4870x2 atm, please do link it here, I'm sure there would be lot of people interested in it. :p:
It's really kinda amazing how heated this whole discussion about nvidia and ATI gets here, looking the whole thing from a cold neutral standpoint is so much more interesting compared to the other option that is labeling yourself as a soldier for either side.
And yes, I think it is awesome that ATI finally has some good cards on the market.
Looking at the reviews, I've yet to seen the shader clock overclocked separately like the rumors suggested.
Do you know if it's possible or will we have to wait for new drivers?
Just set up PayPal and eBay, im selling my 8800gtx and getting 4870 FTW!
wise choice not to pull off a sharikou. :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by v_rr
Any volt modders for the 4870? How much can the stock card with the cooler be overclocked?
I guess this card can go to about 800MHz with a stock cooler. With a nice cooling solution added (like that in HardwareCanucks), I guess it can be a lot better with voltmod since Canucks showed a LOAD temperature of only 44C. With volt modding so as to DOUBLE that temperature I guess some amazing overclocks can be achieved?
Only 50mhz more on the core than stock ? I am used to my nvidia to do like at least 100mhz on top of stock. :rolleyes:
Thats because nVidia should have given you that +100mhz anyways. No wonder there are so many OC versions.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboDiv
This might help ....Quote:
Originally Posted by golden_boy
http://pclab.pl/zdjecia/artykuly/pil...alker-1920.png
Why the lack of 19x12 benches Hardware Canucks?
2x 4870s is cheaper than 1x GTX 280, and much much faster. Is there any reason to get the GTX 280 unless you're planning to go SLI?
im sure "people" who want to will find a reason... really? no there isnt unless they lower their prices by a couple hundred dollars its not very attractive..Quote:
Originally Posted by Xope_Poquar
Nope :shrug::shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xope_Poquar
Well, it doesn't beat the GTX 260, they are on par, with the GTX offering the more consistent performance. Of course, the 4870's value is much better.Quote:
I don't think anyone expected the 4870 to beat the GTX260. It is amazing that a 260mm^2 chip could do that to a 560mm^2 chip.
Not having to deal with scaling, problems with crossfire, microstuttering, drive problems and still getting a huge performance, is that enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xope_Poquar
That should be the most retarded rumour of the year. Whoever told you this was either bs'ing you or was just plain stupid. Although RV770 and G200 have arch's similarities, they have radically different approaches to it. Check out anand's review to get a glimpse of them. And no, there is not a shader domain and core domain clocks in RV770.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.BSEL
Wow, the 4870 will be my next card for sure. Upgrading to 4850 would be useless to me so I was considering a GTX260 but the 4870 destroys it once you crank up resolution and AA (that's the point of these cards, anyway) and for $100 less. I'm amazed... didn't see it coming. To put it simply, Nvidia should just abort the GTX260. There's no reason for it to exist unless it's priced around $279.
For sake of argument I'll be the first one to pitch in some points:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xope_Poquar
1. You really like nVidia.
2. You like the idea of being free from the possible crossfire woes in certain games due to having just one core.
3. You only have one pcie slot with appropriate speed. (though I would consider this to be no biggie to fix if you have the money for the GTX280 handy in the first place.)
4. You like the premise of having a PhysX accelerator capable graphics card.
edit: damn, I was beaten by Isaac..
A pair of 4870x2's in CF on a Nehalem motherboard will be the combo to beat this fall.
I can't wait to say Bye-bye to my crappy NVIDIA chipset.
:yepp:
IMO if you look at the die size, ATi could expand the core to match that of the GTX280, and it would stamp it. Of course then you would be looking at a card that cost about the same amount.
Regardless though, because of the performance that the ATi is getting and because it is so much smaller of a die, they are going to make a killing.
Good on them. They need it.
Thanks for your response/ :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Caparroz
Right after I posted my question, I went to fudzilla and found an interesting article. I know fudzilla usually has bs but it was a good read.
http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?op...=8113&Itemid=1
No problem. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.BSEL
I think Fuad just have some random ideas and just write something about'em. Sometimes it's close to reality and sometimes it's just plain FUD. Like gambling...
ATI has two great cards on their hands. 4850 for mid range, and 4870 for the high end. Then when the 4870X2 comes and stomps the GTX 280 for cheaper. Props to AMD/ATI. Back to the days of the X800 and X850 when ATI was really on their game.:D
Edit I may have to grab an 4870. Sell both my GTS and GT to get the 4870.
hmmmm.. correct working powerplay?
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/193/moddedet1.jpg
http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/...ssage/30312532
I guess that deals with the thermal issues :D
Yes, it looks like they're working out a bios flash to fix powerplay
won't beat 280GTX because of phisycX enable on vantage scores.Quote:
Originally Posted by vengance_01
dose get really close.
I wonder if ATI will get some sort of physic code/drive going form havok or will they have to go to agie/Nvidia to get it on there cards.
Your right but 3dmark is not high on my list, but playing games is. I still might wait it out with my GTS G92 core. Its got a volt mod and I get solid performance from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by demonkevy666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metroid
:fact:
Lets not forget that nVidia is not being allowed to make chipsets for the new Intel quad-core architecture, the Nehalem.
So, keep that in mind when thinking of SLI or porting your card to your new system in the fall.
The 1gig Radeon HD4870 is the clear winner. If that isn't enough power, then wait for the x2 for about $499 and you have a top performer for $150 less.
nVidia lost this match!
****************
Seems it's watercooled to me, no fan connected to the card, that's why you get 0% spinning.Quote:
Originally Posted by waver_01
Well the GPU clocks at that speed seem to be the correct values for powerplay though
You forgot to mention microstuttering. And the lack of dual slots is not only a money issue. I'm not aware of any uATX motherbaords with dual PCIe 16x slots. Although shuttle may have a barebones shoebox that has them. So for people with small (non-shuttle) computers dual slot is not really an option for any price.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldiClocks
even if that's true it doesn't change the fact it's running at 160mhz @ idle :shocked:Quote:
Originally Posted by Luka_Aveiro
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1094/versie4lr9.jpg
cool power play fixed in new bios... MSI bios 011.004
i was going to use duorbs on my 4870's but that might not initially be neccessary now...
@waver 01 - lol you beat me to it
That value didn't show the current actual spinning value, but the spinning value set by the BIOS at that temp. If you're watercooling, even with the fan disconected, that value will show 10% or whatever the BIOS wants. I've had this "issue" with my both 2900XT and 3870 watercooled, will check this when my 4870 arrives in a few days :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Luka_Aveiro
It has been said lots of times: the real idle frequency of the RV770 chip is 160MHz, not 500MHz, hence the extremely high power consumption at idle that every review has shown. Stupid movement by ATI, not having Powerplay done at launch. Now lots of people thinks the card sucks a lot of power at idle.
Now give me a fixed 4870 BIOS please :p:
Any chance we could get a retest of all the benchmarks and power consumption with the HR-03 fitted?Quote:
Originally Posted by m0da
Why do I ask?
From what I've seen there are situations where the RV770 frame rate appears to be limitted (relatively flat performance across resolutions/IQ settings) and I'm not yet convinced that this is down to memory bandwidth, CPU or number of ROPs.
Anti aliasing flatness especially under DX10 could be down to hardware level edge detection anti aliasing in the AA optimised render backends.
Why should it be different?
http://images.hardwarecanucks.com/im...THD4870-47.jpg
The above shows that card will throttle to reduce power consumption and temperature. Power consumption is current squared multiplied by resistance. Resistance is proportional to temperature. So it follows that a ~40C reduction in temperature will result in a proportional reduction in resistance since less current is required for a given voltage, hence lower power consumption. So if the card does throttle based on power consumption then performance would increase if this was reduced.
For those who don't yet understand the difference between 4850 and 4870, basically the GDDR3 on the 4850 has a 256bit memory interface whilst the GDDR5 (QDR) on the 4870 has an effective 512bit memory interface.
I'm guessing that the 480 stream processor assumption from previous leaks came from the 50% increase in transistor count.
One thing I find interesting about the architecture is that each stream processor has a separate unit for handling branching which GPUs are not supposed to be good at if you listen to Intel bigging up ray tracing, the Ruby Whiteout Demo features GPU ray tracing.
If I get the chance I will compare 48x0 and GTX2x0 folding performance.
Did I say the HD4870 has taken the ultimate performance crown? No you ****ing idiot. I said, 2 HD4870s are cheaper than a single GTX 280. Better performance for better price, maybe you should be the one who needs to go back to school? Also, CF scales better than ****ty SLI, so there are instances where 2 HD4870s, even though it lost in the single GPU performances, win in the multi-GPU scenarios against the GTX 280 SLI.Quote:
Originally Posted by ceevee
LOL, good lucking SLIing your GTX 280, hope you have a nuclear power plant in your backyard. I'll be enjoying my HD4870s in CF which totally dominates the GTX 280 for $50 less.
And how the **** am I a fanboy when I used Nvidia since the G70 days? It's clear you're the biggest fanboy.
youre a fanboy!
no, youre a fanboy!,
no, you are!
omg your such a fanboy!,
like noway, im not a fanboy; youre a fanboy!
:ROTF:
sounds like 2 blondes arguing at the mall
add a "like whatevrrrrr" to the end of that and you will nail it right on :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by adamsleath
Yap, you're right. I just checked it with my watercooled 8800GT, thought since the fan was disconnected, no % values, but I was wrong :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR
yeah thats itQuote:
Originally Posted by Spawne32
Frank Zappa's 'valley girl' ;)
so outa these cards which company is best?
was thinking the sapphire or HIS.
been outa the ati loop since my 9600se :D
which company had best rma/support? just in case something happens.
thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceevee
:clap:
You do realize that @ $650 bucks, Nvidia has shot it's load...? The GTX280 is already a 1gig card, etc. While the HD4870 is only a 512MB card @ $299 (thats $351 cheaper) and counterparts with 1gig and OC will be on the shelves within weeks!
It doesn't take a retard or an idiot to understand than for about the cost of the lowly GTX260, you'll probably be able to pick up a HD4870 1gig with aftermarket cooling and a slight overclock that actually outperforms the GTX280 for roughly $250 less (IE $380~390). The HD4870 is a good card, but with an extra $300+ to play with, OEMs will be able to match the numbers of the GTX280 for alot less.
Or are you suggesting to us that your incappable of recognizing that these two card currently occupie different price markets...?
I think even a retard could figure out what we are talking about here, let-alone an idiot. :rehab:
*******************
Hate to ask again but will there be any differences in OC capability between the 512MB and 1GB version? :confused:
Simply put, I needed to draw the line somewhere. The 1280 x 1024 resolution takes care of the 17-19" crowd. 1600x1200 takes care of the 20-22" guys and the 2560 x 1600 takes care of the all or nothing guys. Unfortunately, the 24" users were left out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac MM
Clearly you are an AMD stockholder. Uttering speculation like its fact. Where are you pulling that out of? The GTX280 has at least as much overclocking headroom as a HD4870. A single HD4870 isn't going to beat it no matter how much you cool it. But maybe if you repeat your speculations enough some people will believe you. It might beat a GTX260 though. Although I doubt it because it looks like the GTX260 has a lot more overclocking headroom than the HD4870. I think if you overclock both cards you will find that the GTX260 clearly beats the HD4870 in most benchmarks due to the additional headroom. And for only $50 more than a 1 gig HD4870. Although that is just MSRP. Post rebate street prices will tell the real story. At stock the two cards are about equal, but fully overclocked (and maybe volt modded) on water I think the GTX260 would waste the HD4870. Of course that's just more speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATI_fanboi_Xoulz