Printable View
It has other advantages that might compensate for performance being lower than WC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Salsoolo
- little maintenance
- no risk of leaks
- compact & lightweight
- durable
If it performs significantly better than TRUE, it's a good option for people with unlimited budget.
^
the TRUE can rival a watercooling setup if you have good airflow in your case.
and 280euro is 3x the price of the TRUE
are these advantages worth that much?
still cant wait for the review :D
Seems they pushed it back again, does sound like it under performs and Danamics wants to see better results.
Assumptions are the first step to disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroimaho
Vaporware. :)
There is a reason why I never considered this as a serious product.
It's not vaporware..... http://www.highflow.nl/index.php?tar...product_id=899
According to the site admin several of these are to be delivered next week... all of those were pre-ordered...
I wouldn't be surprised if somehow they wouldn't ship. "We want to make sure that its better!" "Its not good enough yet!" "We said it can possibly beat some cheap water cooling which has bad block and this our cooler can beat it with 2x 7k RPM Deltas attached while sub-zero air is used. We said nothing more!".Quote:
Originally Posted by NightCrawler™
That is VERY expensive. I better get a massage with it too for that kind of money.
Valdeam
Not vaporware. Units have been produced.
Doing the last touches on the review, a combination of FedEx being idiots and the flu slowed us down a bit, but not for more than a day or two.
//Andreas
You guys dont seem to understand the fragileness of the whole issue. At least be patient till the review.
I wish the guys at NH easy progress and good luck with finalization ...
Thanks, but I don't think our single review will do much harm if negative. This is just the first step for Danamics, proving the technology works for this kind of applications is probably going to be enough at this time. Danamics is a startup and LM10 is a test of their technology. If it holds up well it is probably enough to gain further momentum.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] Aerosupra
As far as I understand Gen2 coolers are already in development.
//Andreas
I hope something like this comes along and puts water cooling out of its misery. lol
it can't replace watercooling (at least loops cooling several components in one path)
Delph1, I am saying, because I understand the position where Danamics is with this thing ( not meaning the review, but giving birth to a new concept )
No review yet : (
Going to have to drown my expectations, because it keeps growing with the delay. Gotta be neutral when I read it ..
"Umg will blast any watercooling"
"Calm down! This is just an early test product! :) :)"
"Review up soon!"
"No, next week!"
"oh, delay, next week!"
"Pushed few days, probably next week!"
"Had a flu, next week!"
My guess:
"No one never said it is against WC! Obviously air cooler can not be better! We never claimed that it beats any WC!" ...after the thing loses to original TR Ultra 120, with the $270 pricetag.
Exactly my thoughts. But let's wait for the review.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calmatory
U guys are funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calmatory
:rofl:
Review finally out on NH
Too expensive and not very performant :(
As expected, since the actual heat dissipation still happens over good old forced konvektion. :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivon
despite the performance not beating out water or justifying the price tag, I would like to credit Danamics with actually bringing a product to market which uses new cooling tech, from here on in, there is only room for improvement and further inovation. well done to them and Nordic Hardware for the review. :clap:
Nordic guys are being extremely diplomatic here considering factsQuote:
Originally Posted by Olivon
- it cannot beat high end air coolers
- it costs 350 Euros
- it can only handle LIGHT load at best
sometimes it's better to just move onto something else. Afterall R&D is about experimentation and clearly they need to do some more experimenting as this product just isnt representative of the price tag they are asking for. Price tag HAS to reflect performance.
If this technology is so expensive to develop why are they even attempting. It's like using gold to make an air cooler because it has better thermal conductivity. This is not clever science. They are making the consumer pay for their research with a sale of one cooler (ok a bit exaggerated) but you get the jist :D
Andreas you are doing these ppl a deservice really. I am going to go out on limb and say that they are goin to waste more money and not achieve anything more substantial. Why? They cannot sell a freaking air cooler for 350 Euros. Whoever is behind this project is too much in love with his own idea and doesnt have anyone around him to tell him to wake the :banana::banana::banana::banana: up and smell the roses
They just need to recall all units and go back to the drawing boards honestly...
balls.
i was hoping little magic snow elves would whizz through the electromagnetic pump to dissipate the heat.
oh well.
:up::up::up::up::up:Quote:
Originally Posted by afX
You gave me the best ROFL I've had in months. Thank you. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Slovnaft
So it could possibly be on-par with the original TR Ultra120, at best, as expected.
Hopefully the price goes down big time(to one tenth of the current) so someone could actually consider it as a competitive product against current HE air coolers.
:down:
(Useless rant: Why on earth to focus on transfering the heat, when the bottleneck is in the surface area? Idiots or ignorant fools? ...or ingenious masterminds yet to show their might in years to come? :) (Doubt that. :ROTF:))
A bit disappointed they used a E5200, but oh well.
The set up also looks a bit too complicated overall.
While the concept is good it seems a lot of elements that go into engineering a heatsink are missing, like good fan clips, fins that are designed to accept convective airflow, staggering of the pipes (this is probably possible, not sure), etc ..
What a fail, I could get a true and a cpu for that price and still have the lower temps. ;)
The use of the 5200 is also very interesting for a cooler with that price, almost suspicious. I mean who would buy a 300-400$ cooler for that 80$ CPU ?
Might be that the results were even worse with quads so to make things look better they gave it less heat.
Focusing on the heat transfer in HSF is like some memory manufacturer claimed that "With our superb memory you will get +2000 points in every 3DMark run and +10 FPS in every game you play!! ...just for $300 + optional $150 device to boost the performance!!". The bottleneck is not the heatpipes, just like the bottleneck is not the RAM speed/latencies.
Now I wonder if this product will ever hit the market ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frananta
Umm I dont imagine this will hit the market kinda like the "HydroJet" all the benefits of water cooling without the hassle.
first of all why the hell would someone buying a 400 cooler use it on a 80 dollar cpu like thats one of the most useless reviews ive seen this thing probably tanks on an overclocked quad core.
im not mad im just dissapointed
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
- It can't beat high-end coolers, that was a disappointment, but it does stand up fairly well.
- Yea, that's a major dealbreaker.
- Not very true, with the PowerBooster it can handle about the same as TRUE, but then again I'm not entirely sure what you consider heavy load. Considering this is XS, no air-cooler can handle heavy load ;)
You're really missing much of the point with this cooler. I've said it before, but I'll say it again, this is just a first attempt. Danamics did not expect to turn the market upside down. It wanted to show a well performing product. They are fully aware that the price tag is extremely high, they have never denied it. They are not trying to fund their research by sticking consumers with an underperforming product either. The money they will get from the sales of the LM10 is most likely just going to be a minor, if any, income for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
This is the first step. Not the final. ;)
The overall cooler design needs some tweaking, they know this and have promised to do better with the next one :)Quote:
Originally Posted by cegras
It's in the text if you read the review. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroimaho
I'm going to update the text to further explain this.
I think I can tell you all that during my contact with Danamics they have been very upbeat and even though our results were not mirroring their lab results exactly we were in the same area and they were not afraid of the cooler not being able to perform well. When the results were in they were of course not wheelcarting around the room, but neither did they flood me with questions about how we could change the testing to put LM10 in favor or anything like that. They showed the utmost respect in every way.
I do believe that part reason they were so calm is the fact that this is the first step out of what they hope to be many (there will be more than this one).
I will of course try to keep you posted on their progress in the future.
If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask, but right now I'm off to watch A matter of loaf and death and enjoy the company of a female.
//Andreas
To say I'm disappointed is an understatement. All hype and no performance (at least at that pricetag). Might as well be a $800 phase unit that cools as well as average water.
Pics? :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by NH|Delph1
What I wonder is why do they focus on the liquid metal, as the bottleneck lies elsewhere? As I stated few posts ago, it is like focusing to trim the RAM bandwidth and latency for 3DMark scores(for average joe) - completely useless.
Simply put:
- Increase the surface area
- Increase the heat transfer between the pipes and the cooling fins
- Increase the heat transfer between IHS and the heatpipes(Direct touch does this already)
- Try to get the heat to the center of the cooling fins without fisturbing the airflow too much
- Provide flat base and good enough TIM to avoid the need to lap. Also provide proper mounting kit.
- Try to do this for cheaper than others.
- If going for extreme performance, use copper fins for the first and last 1/3 of the fins. This is due to the fact that axial fans provide the airflow to the edges. The top and bottom fins get the airflow to the middle of the fins and thus getting the heat there is crucial. Copper/thicker Alu fins help with this.
In other words: Take TRUE and increase the surface area by 25 % and make it direct touch. You have a winner. Though, price is higher and people might not be too interested due to high price. Still beats Danamics' offerings. :stick:
Direct touch TRUE wouldn't work.
<Name above removed because I'm not attacking this poster directly, just people like him>Quote:
despite the performance not beating out water or justifying the price tag, I would like to credit Danamics with actually bringing a product to market which uses new cooling tech, from here on in, there is only room for improvement and further inovation. well done to them and Nordic Hardware for the review. :clap:
No. Just straight up NO. Do not congratulate these fail-mongers. They could have tested before mass production and scrapped this design - surely they knew it wasn't as good as it would have to be - and instead they're going to do their best to use marketing to sell a less-than-the-best item at way-better-than-the-best pricing. "Waaah but the costs of testing a design etc..." isn't an argument; OCZ did it with the Hydro-z.
This design was heavily flawed and the basic idea poorly implemented. This was NOT revolutionary - others have considered it and decided against it because in this kind of form factor it's blatantly obvious this is not a great design, not to mention the obvious cost limitations. Considering the cost, it's not even a kind-of-good design.
Lastly, to all of you who kept saying this could beat liquid cooling - bear this in mind as a lesson for the next time you see some gimmicky thing with less surface area than a cheap radiator.
Due to the pipes on the very edge of the base? In that case, it is possible to halve the copper between the pipes and IHS. The effect would be small, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by cegras
Actually 2-3 liquid metal pipes *should* be enough to transfer the heat, thus DT would be possible with LM pipes. Price? +$100? No thanks.
Though, to be honest, I am quite sceptical with the DT heatpipes anyway. The piece of copper between the IHS and the pipes is far from being any kind of a bottleneck. But yeah, 0,5-1 C improvement under special circumstances for small effort is always welcome unless it bumps the price too much.
I'm pretty sure the copper between the pipes and IHS should be at it's thinnest. They save money and gain performance ; )Quote:
Originally Posted by Calmatory
Keep in mind if it's too thin you could have structural problems.
If it is too thin, the pipes on the very edge of the base can't be utilized at their fullest possible potential. But yeah, as I said, the amount of copper is not that crucial anyway, as the biggest bottleneck lies in the surface area and in the heat transfer between the pipes and the cooling fins.Quote:
Originally Posted by cegras
Cool concept, flawed execution.
In a few years if this tech develops though, I could very well see myself using such a cooler for the CPU
and watercooling everything else.
In practice what would be awesome if you had a liquid metal heat exchange that dumped heat via conduction in a passive radiator, like a big bucket of rainwater, or a closed pool of water buried in concrete in the ground, or something like that ..
Has anyone mentioned the fact that it uses NaK? Both highly reactive metals, and even when stored under safe conditions, Potassium can still form peroxides....I guess that would be extreme.
In other words: Take a IFX-14 and make it direct touch. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Calmatory
I doubt we can get much more out of aircooling than we see now, e.g. look at the orochi. Massive surface and more heatpipes then the IFX-14/TRUE and only marginal better.
There needs to be a way to increase the heat transfer coefficient, caues the surface area is quite limited in a case also air temperature is also limited.
Good first step. I expect the second step to be better.
I'm sure there are pictures online, I'm just not going to help you look :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Calmatory
They focus on the liquid metal mainly because it offers consistent performance even if the temperature rises, heatpipes does not. However I do agree that the rest of the design needs to be tweaked to really provide the improvements they hope to bring. The question then becomes if the metal or the superior design is what makes it better, but then again if the price is right does it matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Calmatory
Interesting ideas, I'd like to see this done with pretty much any cooler to be honest :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Calmatory
The synthetic lab results showed a bigger advantage in passive environments than we saw. The product showed promise and, once again, just the first step, not the last. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Serra
It's not easy getting funding for a thing like this and since they have so much faith in it they apparently know something others don't. If you don't like the product, you don't have to buy it. It's not an Orwellian world we live in. ;)
Many times, I also explained in the review why you don't have anything to worry about ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveprime
//Andreas
I think the whole cable set up was a bit complicated. I imagined it would simply be just plug in a molex and forget.
First of i have to echo everyone else, reiterate what a crash and burn epic failure this pos was/is/ will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornet331
Secondly, the problem with the orochi, is the scythe did not elctroplate the heatpipes in nickel, so oxidization can take a toll after a few months, and the soldering job that they did to the fins is pretty much non existent, and relies on pure metal to metal contact to get the job done. The biggest thing is that the heatpipes are stacked on one another near the cpu, and that there is a thick layer of copper between the first set of heatpipes, and the cpu.
If i where to sand down the bottom of an orochi until i was near the heatpipes, it would perform much better, but then i would have to come up with a new mounting system........
Doomed to disaster from day one. Nuff said.
Wait, so it's OK that they released a hugely over-priced, poorly-designed monstrosity because lab tests with PASSIVE environments showed more promise? That's lame. Did they really test it against other top performers in that same environment? Further, why would anyone pay that kind of money for a PASSIVE heatsink (which is almost by definition alone beat out by ACTIVE heatsinks)? Why did they feel that was a good idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by NH
Again, I know it's not easy getting funding, but if you design a bad product you don't release it - all that does is scam people. Given this costs multiples of what better-performing and readily-available items do, that's all it can be called - a scam. Not something that I consider good for anyone. No two ways about it - if you buy it, you're either dumb or you've been tricked by marketing designed to make you pay 4x what it's worth.
If it was truly better by, say, 3-4 degrees versus high-end air cooling then you may give some water-phobes something to think about. But you cannot defend the mass-production of this product.
^^ Kind of reminds you of the Ageia PhysX cards, doesn't it? :p: Ageia tried to be "clever" by making their PPU with a PCI interface, even though in the labs the cards were PCI-E. Why change the bus? Simple, so Ageia could make a "gen 2" of the PPU which was nothing more than the original design. If Ageia had gone with the original PCI-E design to start with, chances are we would all have a PPU n our systems today. I'll spare you the long story of why that would probably be true :D
The cooler was not designed for the people here at XS. I can understand your disappointment. They wanted to niche it to people who wanted a quiet cooler that could run in small or crowded cases where ambient temperatures are higher than average. They did test it against other coolers and found it to be on par with the competition with an edge in passive tests and high ambient temperatures. It did perform better than TRUE without fan, actually 9 degrees better with the overclocked processor in the Orthos test. That's the niche they wanted to find, unfortunately it is still too expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serra
A passive cooler makes no noise, an active cooler does. I thought that was kind of obvious? ;)
People do pay for silence these days, quite a lot actually. This one is too expensive though.
It's not mass production, it's a limited quantity product. Mass production would be down-right stupid, I agree with you there. You should more consider it a demonstration of new technology than a perfected product.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serra
//Andreas
They do make some very quiet fans these days - like, literally you-cannot-hear-them-in-a-closed-case kind of quiet.Quote:
Originally Posted by NH|Delph1
It's a ridiculous niche market that would have the requirements:
1. High cooling requirement (induced by OCing only, really - stock coolers or cheap third-party coolers would be fine otherwise)
2. Case size is unusually small (inducing a high in-case temp)
2. No noise is produced (apparently meaning even yate loons or volt-modded other fans are too noisy?)
3. Refuses to try alternative cooling (ie. water) which could offer the same noise levels and work better by an order of magnitude
Basically they'd have to sell an uber-enthusiast priced product to a complete non-enthusiast... who likes to OC?
As long as they're taking niche market requests, I'd like to request a design for people that have the following design requirements:
1. High cooling requirements
2. Must operate with very limited oxygen availability
3. Must operate in low gravity situations gravitational aid
4. Must be able to withstand high levels of radiation bombardment
...but seriously, that's all beside the point because I (and others) stand by the simple point that the very foundational design of the heatsink itself is terribly flawed. Even if they do manage to sell a few of them, the fact is that they're about as good a product as the last batch of submarines Canada bought from England (they all leaked).
I'm confused how exactly the leaks are stopped, you said that the metal would simply plug up the hole, I guess it would be similar to blood clotting, but would the metal still not be exposed to the atmosphere?
I'd just like to point out I'm not really trying to defend their business plan, just telling you what I know.
They do, but fans wear and tear. Passive solutions do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serra
Not saying it's a big niche or even a good one. Just what I have been told.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serra
Their first attempt, they hope to do better with the next one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serra
The metal reacts with the air and become solid and non-reactive, and plugs the whole. The highly reactive liquid metal remains inside the pipe behind the plug.Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveprime
//Andreas
http://www2.basf.us/inorganics/pdfs/...asheet/NaK.pdf
If it is going to react with air, it will react with the moisture in the air, causing a large amount of heat, and hyrdogen gas (which will ignite). It wont simply become "solid" and inert. Also, there IS moisture in the air inside and around computer cases, why do you think insulation is required for subzero cooling? No to mention, it poses a risk if it becomes damaged while being shipped or stored, as it is more likely to come into contact with water (as well as moisture in the air). This is silly, I dont think you really understand the potential danger present with the use of NaK.
First of all, sorry for the late reply (Notifications from XS seems to come in groups of 40-60 nowadays and not directly).Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveprime
I'm well aware of what happens chemically, my Master of Science in Chemistry should be enough to prove that. I wanted to keep it simple, because not everyone knows chemistry that well or don't speak English that well. Sorry if I was a bit short, but I've been working a bit too much lately.
The thing is that if there would occur a leak the hole will be small and the amount of NaK coming in direct contact with H2O will be quite little, it will then form KO2 that will plug the hole a bit like a scab.
This will of course also result in the formation of hydrogen gas, volume expansion and energy being released. This is course bad, but the amount is still within margins that it will not be harmful to you, the electronics may be damaged if the sudden leak is great enough, but that does seem highly unlikely with the testing they do before shipping.
The pipes are hermetically sealed and thoroughly tested before shipping. I don't think the EU would approve sales of a product that had potential of exploding and causing damage to the buyer. I would not be scared of having the cooler inside my computer. The build quality and quality assurance before shipping is quite meticulous.
//Andreas