Missed that..I was writing and got called away while doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerica
Good, then there's two of us saying to try it.:up:
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Missed that..I was writing and got called away while doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerica
Good, then there's two of us saying to try it.:up:
Farm-09 AS5 vs D7 - re-test after HW shuffle from previous test. Like SiG's machine, this one seems to be an outlier on the test. Looking at the spread patterns you can see that the CPU looks convex. It begs to be lapped, which I will do only when Tasty has had his way with this setup.
Farm-09 is my bench rig, sitting open on the bench. It has a Q6600 on an Abit IP35 Pro. It is running at stock for the last couple of weeks for this test. (It will get clocked back up as soon as the last AS5 cures....;) I can't STAND stock speed anymore....:shakes: )
It has a TRUE with a Scythe fan and a 120 mm 110 CFM fan blowing from left to right WRT to the front of the mobo.
Short story results up front, detailed data below.....I tried four different runs.
1. The first was AS5, pea blob, which was allowed to cure.
2. The second was D7, pea blob, Also allowed time to cure, but never did in the time allowed.
3. The third test was the cross pattern, run for 5.5 days. Again, never changed with the exception of a modification my lab assistant and her partner made during an intense game of hide-and-seek. Noted below.... This may perhaps turn out to be a "eureka" event.....
4. The fourth test was back to AS5, pea blob, to re-validate my results, which so far look consistent with run #1. The last piece of data I will add to this post is the cure temps of AS5 on test #4.
EDIT 4/15: I added cure Data to the below with spread pics. Any further edited text is in italics through this post. I also added the start of test #5 Shin Etsu X23-7783....
5. Shin Etsu X23-7783, pea blob
Bottom line - The cured AS5 from test #1 outperformed the D7, at load, in this particular case, over the time tested. The second AS5 test #4 was on par with D7. The I don't know why, other than the D7 is so much thicker, and perhaps with the convex CPU, that made the difference. A theory is that due to the convex shape, and the big difference in consistency, the AS5 was better able to form a thinner interface on the smaller, critical contact point. OK, now to the details.....
Side note - I cleaned the be-jeebers out of the TRUE and CPU on changing pastes. I used acetone and cleaned the AS5 and D7 so hard, it's near impossible to read the chip label now. As noted before, D7 also makes good polish!!
Test #1 was with AS5, healthy pea blob. Pic below.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...f92as5blob.jpg
I'll save results for below. Here's the spread from the AS5 on breakdown. this is after cure time. It took about 24 hours for a significant temp drop from curing to show up with AS5. I think cure time was accelerated using the 50% profile with EIST enabled. I'll also note that AS5 is much thinner than D7. Shin Etsu is closer to D7 in consistency.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...5CPUspread.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...TRUEspread.jpg
Note the fine spot in the middle. It appears to be where the AS5 had the closest contact after the cure. This will get the pressure film test when it gets here.
Test #2 - Here's the intial pea blob of D7
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...tD7peablob.jpg
Here's the spread pics
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...aCPUspread.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...TRUEspread.jpg
Test #3 - For this next test I used the cross pattern. I found I got good coverage with this in prior passes and figured I'd give it a whirl on this pass.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...dcrossblob.jpg
I also opted to put a little more weight on the matter. The juice jug provides a few more pounds. (I don't think it matters what flavor, but I may be mistaken...:ROTF: )
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...juicejug-1.jpg
Here's the breakdown spread of the cross mount after 5.5 days.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...sCPUspread.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...TRUEspread.jpg
Test #4 - This is initial pea blob for the AS5 re-test
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...f93as5blob.jpg
EDIT: Here's the spread pics of test #4 AS5
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...TRUEspread.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...5CPUspread.jpg
EDIT: Here's the beginning of Test #5, Shin Etsu X23-7783
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...783peablob.jpg
OK, the results……..
Test #1 AS5, Pea blob
AS5 – Temps
Idle: 15min time running
Ambient 23.9 C
CoreTemp – 33,34,31,31
Load:
BOINC as load – 15min time running
Ambient 24.2 C
CoreTemp – 47,49,44,45
Load: CURED
BOINC as load – Approx 22 hours time running
Ambient 23.2 C
CoreTemp – 39,42,37,38 (Restarted machine to verify numbers. They were the same about 10 minutes into restart. Verified results…)
Test #2 D7, Pea blob
D7 - Temps
Idle: 10min time running
Ambient 23.9 C
CoreTemp – 30,31,27,27
Load:
BOINC as load – 15min time running
Ambient 23.9 C
CoreTemp – 44,47,42,43
Load: at 21 hours
BOINC as load – Approx 21 hours time running
Ambient 24.7 C
CoreTemp – 44,47,43,43
(Pulled early since I thought my mount was bad. Turns out it was good….)
Test #3 D7, cross pattern
D7 - Temps
Idle: 10min time running
Ambient 24.8 C
CoreTemp – 32,33,30,30
Load:
BOINC as load – 60min time running
Ambient 25.4 C
CoreTemp – 45,48,43,44
Load: at 3 days (Before Bottle knock off…)
BOINC as load – Approx 3 days time running
Ambient 21.6 C
CoreTemp – 42,44,39,40
NOTE – What occurred between these two data points is that “someone” bumped the bench and knocked the bottle off the cooler. They didn’t put it back on, otherwise I would not have known it happened…..Note that the temps got about 2 degrees worse. This is like I noted in a prior post about “getting gorilla” on the mount and blowing the temps. On a convex mount like this, is it perhaps that in rocking the mount, it removes the paste from the outer edges, thereby reducing overall TIM contact? Seems logical….
Load: at 5.5 days (After Bottle knock off…)
BOINC as load – Approx 5.5 days time running
Ambient 24.7 C
CoreTemp – 46,49,44,45
Test #4 AS5, Pea blob
AS5 - Temps
Idle: 15min time running
Ambient 24.8 C
CoreTemp – 31,32,28,28
Load:
BOINC as load – 2 hours time running
Ambient 23.5 C
CoreTemp – 44,47,43,44
EDIT:
Load: at 1.5 days cured (Before pushing TRUE)
BOINC as load – Approx 1.5 days time running
Ambient 20.4 C
CoreTemp – 39,43,38,39
NOTE – What occurred between these two data points is that I pushed on the top of the TRUE with only about 10 pounds of pressure while trying not to rock it. It was enough to blow the mount such that the temps never recovered....Delicate stuff this AS5.....I cranked much harder on the D7 in order to blow it's mount...
Load: at 1.6 days (blown Mount)
BOINC as load – Approx 1.6 days time running
Ambient 21.1 C
CoreTemp – 42,44,39,40
Test #5 Shin Etsu X23-7783, Pea blob
Shin - Temps
Idle: 15min time running
Ambient 23.7 C
CoreTemp – 27,30,27,27
Load:
BOINC as load – 15 min time running
Ambient 23.7 C
CoreTemp – 43,46,42,43
Figuring for ambient changes, the first cured AS5, at load, was cooler than either D7 test. I must have had a great mount on the AS5. I’ll add the cure data for the second AS5 test when it comes in then I’ll update this post. D7 does very well on the idle tests, but not against the cured and loaded AS5 run.
Based on all the data others have provided, as well as my own, I'm starting to form an opinion. (Note that this is an opinion only, not a scientific conclusion fully supported by data....) I think D7 is a very good long term TIM. I've come to trust it over time, much like I trust Shin Etsu. I must say I was surprised to see it beat my last Farm 07 Shin Etsu post. I will be re-visiting that when the new tubes come from Qouc at Petra's. I'd like to know about this outlier. I don't think the AS5 mount would last over 6 months, but who knows. I may take it that long on the final test pass....
I still find it interesting that rocking the mount on a convex case causes that much trouble. I guess it makes sense when you think about it. I would guess any paste would have this problem. When I get ready to break down this AS5 mount, I'll do the same thing and see what happens.
EDIT: The second AS5 mount confirmed a couple of things. The mount I had on the first test was great....There is variance in the AS5 mounts though. The D7 mounts are more consistent. The other thing of note was how easy it was to blow the AS5 mount as compared to the D7 mount. It really took much less pressure to do it. I intentionally rocked the D7 mounts in order to blow them...:up:
The Shin Etsu (test #5) is looking good so far. This paste has a distinct cure time and almost triples it's thermal conductivity in that time. That's according to the Shin data sheets. We'll see real world results with this mount, one I consider a problem child....:eek: If I can blow this mount as easy as the AS5, I must say I'm nearly done testing for myself, I'll be a D7 fan. Any further testing will be for Tasty (Andrew).
SOAPBOX: Like my rather conservative crunching clocks, I want something I don't have to dork with, worry about, or not have confidence that it will crunch without me for months....The Tortoise and the Hare, a lesson well learned over the years.....:END SOAPBOX
This CPU and cooler are definite candidates for a lap job, and will get it as soon as I’m done testing this configuration. EDIT: Look at the mill marks on that TRUE!! Disgusting...:eek:
Tasty, this will definitely get the film test. I’ll hold this configuration as long as you want me to try stuff on it. As stated above, the clock will go back up, but I’ll baseline that. If needed for a particular test, I can downclock again if we are trying to match an earlier data point. This is my bench machine, so it’s easy to dork with it….
One issue I was thinking about is how we execute the film test. I could see in mounting we will have to be careful not to give false reads on the film by cranking the cooler. On the other hand, this may provide evidence of different coolers pulling stuff astray by the mount conditions. The TRUE maybe particularly so…..We should discuss this a bit among those who are receiving film…..This is new ground for me, you paid for the film, so you tell me your thoughts, and maybe the folks here will be able to refine this some.
Send SiG some film, whether he asked for it or not. Now I have to know why we are "outliers"…..I’m sure the good Doctor will indulge one of his best patients….:rofl: :ROTF: :up:
I'd like to say thanks to Tasty (Andrew) for providing this test opportunity to us. I've learned a LOT more about how I approach TIM application and treatment.
Now, when can I have some Nehalems to test this knowledge out on????:shrug:
Regards,
Bob
I noticed stuff called Liquid Metal Pro in that thread so I looked it up. Sounds impressive, but the performance seems to be no better than D7, and it's a royal pain to apply and clean up. I'd bet the LMP is evil toxic, too.
It is known as the BEST TIM out there, but I understand it is a huge PITA to deal with. Particularly if you want to ever get your cooler pried off your CPU. Others can comment with experience here, I'm sure...:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
The comparisons I saw only showed it to be 3-5 degrees better than AS5, which is what the D7 seems to be getting.
@Bob,
I did ask for the film for testing, I would like to know why my results varied from most. I suspect my convex waterblock has something to do with the thicker TIM.
My experience with LMP was that it is the best TIM that I have used. The idle to load temps were very close and if you through more voltage at the cpu the temps barely moved. Cleanup is another story though.
What is the stuff like? Is it a solid?Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
Like the name implies, it is a liquid metal. The surfaces must be extremely clean or the stuff just "puddles" up. But when everything is super clean a tiny amount spreads over the entire CPU leaving a very thin film of liquid metal. It is metal so it is very conductive so caution must be taken not to use too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martijn
Cleanup is a biatch, you have to lap the surfaces to remove it. Some people have experienced fusing of the block and CPU. But the performance was excellent.
123bob, SiGfever, Movie man, Emerica, 64dragon and others, Great stuff and thanks for the great work you guys are doing.
I have been traveling for the last few days and just got back tonight. I will start tomorrow figuring what's what with the pressure film. I will spend some time talking to the company rep to make sure we are on the right track in how we apply it.
I got a chance to try it once before I left and it left me with a lot to think about. The film comes in two sheets, a loaded one and a negative "print" sheet.
There were definite high points which were clearly defined, the lows were fairly broad across the test strip which makes me think that doing the test with the compound in place may provide a more even distribution in pressure.
So a probable method would be to apply the paste then place a loaded strip on the paste with the print strip then mount the sink side so it remains "clean".
It may take some doing to get a good reading. For instance if you torque from one side then the other you may get an uneven pressure distribution. Might need a second person to hold the sink to prevent that from happening. We will have to think of a good way to do this.
The comparison chart of the raw data is a little subjective and I think the best way to do this is to send you guys a sample envelope where maybe it is numbered so we can trace it to person/system and then put that envelope in a self addressed envelope back to me and we go with the full boat color digital analysis along with excel files for everybody.
Temperature has to be noted along with Humidity - Maybe logging on to your local weather report and taking the humidity reading there would be sufficient?
I believe I have enough for everybody to run several tests and then submit what they think are their best samples. Anybody else have any ideas?
Thanks again
Andrew
i got my free sample from SPI the other day but have not had time to try it yet. Also I was worried about how to place it in the system because the fuzion gets screwed down on one side then the other. I don't think it will give very good readings. after i test it they said I should send it back to them.
I have learned a lot thanks to you Andrew!! Thanks for helping me learn!
No, my thanks to you. Excellent product that works well.Quote:
Originally Posted by tastymannatees
I'm not the type like 123bob and the others to sit down and do the analysis.
I'm more a seat of the pants type of person.
If I feel inside that the product is good I go with it.
I've never used anything but AS5 and once ceramique as they did what I needed at the speeds I was running.
This just plain works better from what I've seen and thats all I need to know.
A solid 3-4C temp drop on a known machine with no other variables and there is also a factor that during this testing time winter broke here and the house temps went up maybe 2-4F but the gain remained.
I have no issues recomending it to people and thats not BS for the "free" TIM.
That's how I feel and the numbers I see support it.
Many Thanks!:up:
My main concern is how to apply even mounting pressure while tightening the blocks down. Even with a criss-cross tightening pattern it will compress the film just like you are squeezing out a tube of toothpaste. Getting someone to help with the mount is not real world and I do not know if this should be done because your average user if told two people are required to apply the Tim might choose not to try. Just a thought.
Since I measure the mounting plate distance each time to replicate the previous mount I feel fairly confident in the pressure being constant but a small variance is probable. I know that diamond is more conductive than other substances so my results puzzle me, they should have shown a couple degree improvement but did not putting me outside your other test subjects.
John
I agree with you Dave. I have also told a few people that they should get and try this stuff and also told them to read this thread if they didn't be leave me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
I did the "cross" pattern on mine and with the TRUE I tighten it down as one would a auto wheel and in small steps of maybe 1/2 a screw turn at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
I'm not saying it's the best way, but it's always worked for me.
I've always thought there was a lot of voodoo witch doctor kind of thinking over the last few years as regards the "proper" way to put on thermal paste and most of it has ignored the placement of the cores under the IHS.
I can see a "drop like a grain of rice" concept for a single core but not on a dual or quad. Different locations of the cores underneath that IHS and that has to be taken into consideration.
OK, you can all flame the old guy now for taking a stand on this..:D
So, i guess, i will try D7 for my next build, I am a die hard As Ceramic fan but there is to much info that says it's time to change...
thanks for your time and effort!
Well Maybe it's an issue maybe not. I am trying to anticipate what problems we may encounter. Hopefully the company rep can provide some insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
There is also a time factor involved in this- less than ten seconds - more than ten seconds. When I talked to the rep he also mentioned longer term conditions like overnight, something like this may average out the initial imbalances would be perhaps another way to go.
Careful sequential tightening may be adequate
Here it is and this is how I feel about it:Quote:
Originally Posted by systemviper
If you don't think it's better than the Ceramique I will paypal you the $7.00 you spent for the tube plus whatever shipping they charge you.:up:
http://www.petrastechshop.com/icdi7cathco.html
I always have used ceramique and now I have been testing the D7 and I am getting more and more impressed. My first thoughts on it was that it was not that good but my temps are making me change my mind!Quote:
Originally Posted by systemviper
We can be careful with how we mount. I think we will have more suggestions when we try out the first piece. I have no clue how this stuff behaves. The company rep's suggestions should prove useful.
Whatever we do, we should work within some set of guidelines so we don't return a bunch of "blown" film to you.
I would think if we mount with paste, we may have an issue of false results on the film since the paste will spread out, with some force, to the edges. Without paste though, we are really just looking at the contact profile of the bare metal. I don't know what is better.....I suppose we'll see.
Regards,
Bob
I was planning on doing it with out any paste I don't see the paste as helping in any way. the sheet that SPI sent me is kind of neat and i don't see a way that it could be done with the paste on either.Quote:
Originally Posted by 123bob
Paste has an "e" on the end. :D
no problem Andrew. I haven't done much yet since I have tried the D7 yet but data is data. As an engineering student, I understand that completely. I'm egar to put on the D7 but i'll let the shin etsu sit as long as possible. I've got a busy week so I may get to changing it on saturdayQuote:
Originally Posted by tastymannatees
yeah it does! oupsQuote:
Originally Posted by Gamekiller
my spelling suck you will just have to deal with it or have Dave ban me :rofl: :rofl:
Just a note to all that I edited post #202 with more data from Test #4, added Test #5, and some observations about how easy it was to blow the AS5 mount on this machine.
Looking forward to the film testing, particularly on this machine.
To LittleOwl, and all, I understand from Tasty's post above that the film comes in two halves. A loaded "ink" portion and a "capture" portion. You would put the loaded portion on the paste, put the "capture" portion on the sink, and put the thing together. Then pull it apart, take the "capture" portion and send it in. Sounds a bit like an old Polaroid process here. I would suggest you don't do anything to your sample until we figure out how to best handle this stuff. It's a one-time shot and we are all should spend a bit of time figuring out how this is best done, before burning through lots of film.
Bob
I had my Telecon with the pressure film rep.
He Recommends the test be done dry, basically what we are looking for are mechanical inconsistencies and by filling in the voids it tends to obscure the contact issues.
Relative humidity is not a problem and can be ignored for our tests.
Room temperature should be noted.
CPU should be room temp
A careful clamping sequence should be adequate.
10 - 15 min exposure for the film should work fine - Once you reach max exposure/pressure the film stops further rupturing of the color nodules. as long as exposure is not more than 24hours nothing else has to be noted
Question. IHS sample cut size, I am looking at around 1.2 inches square per sample or maybe 1.5 in. to make it easier to get a full print. I do not want to go too much larger as I would like to send as many test samples as I can to each participant. Will 1.5 Inch square do it for you guys?
We will do the full color mapping analysis on each one. It will take me a day or so to get organized on mailing,tracking results method so samples will probably go out Friday.
Added what we will get from the analysis
With the Topaq® Advanced Pressure Analysis
System, statistical data and detailed digital
visuals can be extracted from Pressurex®
pressure indicating sensor films.
Topaq® enables a wealth of statistical information and high
resolution visuals to be extracted from Pressurex® - greatly
enhancing the ability of the sensor film to define pressure
distribution and magnitude. Vital statistics like total force,
average pressure, total square inches of contact and standard
deviation can be determined with ±4% accuracy using
Topaq®’s advanced analysis capabilities. Topaq® can also
render histogramic and population statistics on
user-defined regions of interest.
Features
• 2D pseudocolor display of pressure distribution
• 3D topographical view
• Graphical display of pressure data
• Graphical view of data along a user-defined line
• Detailed pressure statistics
1.5 by 1.5 should do nicely. Good to see that this should be pretty straight-forward. I'm looking forward to what it shows.
Thx,
Bob
Me too, maybe we can find out Bob why you and I are..."abinormal". :shrug: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by 123bob
Looks like a great experiment coming into being, I'd sign up (as the engineer in me is very curious) but I haven't even gotten around to changing my TIM out yet ! :shrug: I will be following the results of the pressure mapping work even more closely than the temperature results !
This is the complete pressure film tester list for xtremesystems if I have missed anybody let me know
123bob
Bail_w
Deux
littleowl
SiGfever
xoqolatl
Martijn
64dragon
Deadeye550
I have a total of 27 from Anandtech, hardwarelogic, overclockers.com and xtremesystems with the multiples probably hit 50 to 60 covering a full range of systems, coolers. A pretty good sample in my book.
I'll do a scan of the raw result noting the sink and setup before I send it out for a comparison to the pressure mapped analysis
I donno Doc... :shrug: Well, to start with, I'm left handed. How about you? Maybe the rest of the world is AFU and you and I are the ONLY ones that are normal??? :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
I actually think it is the pronounced convex shape I have on this particular CPU. I'm dying to lap the be-jeebers out of it to find out. But, science must take it's course. I have to film test it first...:up:
Regards,
Bob
EDIT: My Shin Etsu X23 mount appears to be starting to cure. I dropped 3 degrees in the last 2 hours. We'll see what she looks like in the morning. Dragon, have your temps dropped? I have 22 hours of runtime on this one. I used the 50% cycle trick overnight. I don't know if that speeded the cure up, or not....
i'm left handed too
my Shin Etsu x23 temps did not drop after 5 days, they actually went up. i'm expecting that i dont have enough paste and over time developed air pockets due to the motherboard being vertical.
original temps from 4-11-08
Shin Etsu X23 - ambient of 22C
idle temps: taken 10 minutes after startup
core 1: 24C
core 2: 30C
WCG 100% load - after 20 minutes
core 1: 33-35C
core 2: 38-40C
current temps 4-16-08
Shin Etsu X23 - ambient of 22C
idle temps:
core 1: 29C
core 2: 34C
WCG 100% load
core 1: 36C
core 2: 41C
so idle temps went up 4-5C and load went up 1-3C
i may pull the mount tonight and switch over to the IC D7, if not tonight i wont get to it until saturday
The SPI sample they sent me is big enough that I should be able to get 2 test out of it. I will try and get time this week to try it out. In the note they sent with it it said to note the temp also but not to worry about the humidity. I will post as soon as I get it time to test!
How can I cut it so that way it is easier for me to test more then one time with it????
Quote:
Originally Posted by tastymannatees
Do we have to email you again with our informations?
due to Bob saying that he noticed a drop in temps from the Shin Etsu after 22 hrs and having had mine on for 5 days and seeing an increase in temps I decieded to pull the mount and switch to the IC D7.
heres what I found when I pulled off the heatsink
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/DSCF3050.jpg
on the CPU
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/DSCF3054.jpg
i'm actually surprised with this, imo, it spread fairly well an the empty spaces on the hsf match up with the covered areas on the ish.
heres my blob of D7
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/DSCF3059.jpg
here are my current idle temps after 1.5 hrs of application and 22C ambient
core 1: 25-26
core 2: 30-32
WCG 100% load .5 hr load
core 1: 33-35
core 2: 38-40
so, initial temps mimic those of the Shin Etsu
I should have your addresses if I do not I will PM you for itQuote:
Originally Posted by Bail_w
After app 8 days:
from 49-49-48-47 on AS5 with room temps of 68F to
46-46-46-45 on D7 with room temp right now of 71F
Yea, "3 less with 3 more"
Hows that for a slogan?:D
I am trying to consolidate results here so I went through the post results and this is what I came up with so far . I am only looking at the load temps. Some were averaged, some were interpolated. I am looking for corrections understated/overstated, missed or double entry. please review when you get a chance and suggest changes where differences occur.
It is a little chaotic on this end as some of you are in a kind of a multiple adjustment/fine tuning in process testing and others are updating results.
I was thinking that when you think you have your final number note it in a post as Final Result as it will make my job a whole lot simpler with fewer errors on my part. I am much appreciating your efforts to date, thanks again.
List of ongoing results
123bob -1.5
Martijn -5.25
Martijn -8
Martijn -7
SiGfever 3.75
123bob 0
123bob -1
123bob -1.55
David_L6 -1
littleowl 1.45
-0.25
-0.25
kiwi -1
fart_plume
Bail_w -3.55
SiGfever 2.65
littleowl 6.2??/-3.75??
Movieman -3.5
xoqolatl -6.45
xoqolatl -5.55
jspace -2.5
jsjspace -4
jspace -2
jspace -3.5
Deadeye550 -3
123bob -2.7
KaptainBlaZzed -4.5
My final results to date:
Load temps dropped by 6.44°C (averaged over 2 weeks)
This is on Q6600 at 1.35V real, 3600MHz.
I should have Athlon X2 and E6300 results soon.
I am going to do another run on a P4 630. Pics & temps will be up shortly.
Results in post no. 250.
EDIT: This pressure test got me thinking... It will of course also show a different picture when your IHS is slightly concave or convex :)
Hire the left handed, we're the only ones in our right mind.....:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by 64dragon
I have a curious result to share. Last night my Shin X23 mount was showing a couple of degrees of improvement. Now it's right back to where it started....I had thought that the Shin was curing. What may actually be happening is that it did cure, and possibly shrunk down some? This is a convex CPU so perhaps it isn't making as good a contact as last night? I noted on shin pages that X23 is intended for smooth flat surfaces. G751 is recommended for non-flat contacts. I have G751 also and will give that a whirl soon.
So bottom line, my results appear to be in-line with Dragon's.
Regards,
Bob
haha, i wish someone would hire me, i'm graduating on May 17th and dont have a job yet...maybe i should add to my resume that i'm left handed.
back on topic
according to your post Bob, i should have better results with the X23 than cause my heatsink and ihs are lapped. i kept it to 800 grit so my microscopic hills and valley's aren't any different in size from before the lap and just made them both flat.
Graduating engineering, right? What kind? Electrical? CS? ME? I may be able to hook you up with my division of Motorola. I've been with the company for almost 20 years. I'm a Staff EE with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by 64dragon
Back OT, Theoretically then X23 should be the right paste for you. I've got quite a hill on my Farm-09 CPU. You can see it in the spread pics. The TRUE has some pretty deep mill marks too. G751 should be the ticket for that one. So far, D7 has given me reliable mounts and is right up with the others in temps. Because of this, I'd have to conclude D7 is the best choice for this machine without lapping it.
Regards,
Bob
littleowl 6.2??/-3.75??
Whats that?
ok I did some tests today I will try to post them tomorrow night at work. I am fapped here at home from my wife surfing myspace today. so not much of a connection speed. :((
Edit:
First pic is my fuzion and the second is the 6002 as you can see i had lots of trouble holding the film when doing the test because of the way I made my hold down. :( this stuff is kind of neat! I will do it on a bench top when I get the films from tasty... It was really hard in this case to do it so bench top out side with my e6600 should be more fun! I will set up a water loop and test setup out there this week (I hope)
Color chart and graph - match the color, note the number then match the number to the curve on the graph
Bob, PM sent to continue discussion
Tasty, PM replied to
Update on D7
my current ambient is 25C - after 40ish hrs of cure time (if i added those hrs right, i'm goin on 2 hrs of sleep since 7am thrursday)
core 1: 36C
core 2: 42C
so, room temp went up 3C and cpu temps went up 1-2C
yeah tasty I looked at the color chart but still not really sure what to make of it other then my 6002 has a hell of a lot harder clamp then my fuzion.
looking at your charts (more then I got with my free sample kit) my humidity was D 60%
looking at color my PSI would be about 80 because my chart for the fuzion shows it at about .5??? sound right??
This is the reason I opted for the full digital analysis. The white Areas are where you are not making any contact. You have to do a kind of mental averaging I would agree on the 80PSI reading in the darker areas although about 1/4 looks to be < 30psi so the 80 would drop with the digital analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by littleowl
The first image has most of the pressure reading at the edges little or no contact in the center so something,... IHS? is a little on the concave side and looks to me < 30PSI in that center part.
The mounts both look like the have a higher pressure on the right side than on the left.
Like I said it is subjective and why I would like to put together a library with raw and digtital pics 50 or 60 samples probably will cover most variations in mounts.
well this was there free sample SPI sent me and when I get yours I will do it on the bench top and see what the different mounts look like. after I get them I will label each of them before i scan this time! I did send my samples back in today so I am excited to see what they tell me. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by tastymannatees
Tried the IC diamond compound today. (Thanks to David_L6 :up: ). Must say i'm pretty impressed :)
My 'razor blade' style method didn't work very well . I'm using the 'blob' method now. Also the mount of my TRUE wasn't optimal. I've put an old credit card under the metal bracket. Seems to work better , gives more downforce.
Sorry, don't have very reliable scientific data here , but I'm seeing a solid 5°C degree drop in coretemp :) But you gotta factor in the better TRUE mount and better TIM method.
Q6600 B3 @ 3.4Ghz 1.45vcore
TRUE + 1500rpm Antec fan
Asus P5Ke Wifi
before 72-72-68-69 (23° ambient)
now 67-67-63-63 (23°C ambient)
The testing system:
CPU: P4 630 @ 3.6Ghz, 1.35v in BIOS, 1.37v measured.
Mobo: Asus P5AD2-E premium
Mem: Some crappy 2x512MB sticks I still had. DDR2-533.
GPU: ATI Radeon HD2400pro
HD: Seagate 7200.7 80GB SATA (not in the picture)
TIM: Arctic Silver 5
Original AS5:
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5968/img5697kc2.jpg
The cooler mounted. This is a stock Conroe-L/Wolfdale heatsink.
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/4492/img5698sq9.jpg
The system as it is running right now. Yes, that is my trusty old Matrox Mystique PCI laying there.
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7863/img5699uz7.jpg
The cooler after removal:
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6391/img5700ip1.jpg
The CPU after removal of the cooler. It didn't have proper contact, after a remount temperatures were better.
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/6118/img5702rr7.jpg
Updated temperatures from an improved mount:
Temperatures:
Idle: 50C
Load: 70C
Ambient: 22C
More ICD7 results up tomorrow. So far the temperatures are 44C idle, 65C load with a 20C ambient.
Update:
ICD7 on the CPU:
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/5779/img5703no2.jpg
The cooler after removal:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9905/img5704wb3.jpg
The CPU after removal of the cooler:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8893/img5707zl8.jpg
The final ICD7 results:
Ambient 19C
Idle: 41C
Load: 62C
That is a 6 degree drop in idle temp, and a 5 degree drop in load temp.
EDIT:
I had a quick chat with Andrew over PM. He asked me to post this since I noticed this while mounting my heatsink. The stock Intel heatsink, as we all know, uses push-pins to tighten the cooler to the board. Obviously, no motherboard is perfect. One of these small manufacturing errors can mean that the board has slightly larger mounting holes, or mounting holes that are slightly off-center. From time to time I have seen boards that are bent around the CPU area, obviously because the cooler applied a lot of pressure on the board. This can either be a cooler or a motherboard manufacturing error.
When mounting the stock Intel cooler on this P5AD2-E board, it took me much, much longer to mount than on my Striker Extreme (say 5 minutes vs. 1). On the P5AD2-E mobo, it seems the cooler is much more firmly attached than it was on my Striker Extreme. From the looks of it, it seems the mounting holes on the Striker are slightly bigger as well. Also, when using push-pins rather than a backplate, it could be that the cooler isn't touching the CPU perfectly, something which is less of an issue when using a backplate. This can result in different load temperatures.
Quote:
I had a quick chat with Andrew over PM. He asked me to post this since I noticed this while mounting my heatsink. The stock Intel heatsink, as we all know, uses push-pins to tighten the cooler to the board. Obviously, no motherboard is perfect. One of these small manufacturing errors can mean that the board has slightly larger mounting holes, or mounting holes that are slightly off-center. From time to time I have seen boards that are bent around the CPU area, obviously because the cooler applied a lot of pressure on the board. This can either be a cooler or a motherboard manufacturing error.
When mounting the stock Intel cooler on this P5AD2-E board, it took me much, much longer to mount than on my Striker Extreme (say 5 minutes vs. 1). On the P5AD2-E mobo, it seems the cooler is much more firmly attached than it was on my Striker Extreme. From the looks of it, it seems the mounting holes on the Striker are slightly bigger as well. Also, when using push-pins rather than a backplate, it could be that the cooler isn't touching the CPU perfectly, something which is less of an issue when using a backplate. This can result in different load temperatures.
__________________
This was a great observation by Martijn. I Have not been getting great results with push pin configurations on the whole, usually equal or +1 or 2C which I was attributing to low mounting pressure due to hardware fatigue and other factors and never relating it to MB mechanical differences that was causing a pressure issue. Something to take note of and see if we can get further confirmation.
This is the kind of stuff that we can use in our troubleshooting guide. You Guys are doing great work, above and beyond what I expected. I'll have to work out a (modest) bonus for the group when we get to completion.
If you are looking for better mounting pressure with the stock intel coolers with the LGA775 push-pins you can get one of those Thermalright LGA775 bolt-through kits.Quote:
Originally Posted by tastymannatees
hum that is a good idea but that don't help with the stock hold down from intel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerica
you can't pull the pins out of the stock intel and use the screws and backplate from the thermalright? why wouldn't that work?
Yes you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by 64dragon
I got one of those samples a few days ago. Haven't had the time to tear any systems apart due to school, work, etc. I'll see if I can get to it tomorrow or Monday night. I also have 3 more systems I think I will test.
I know I am late to the party but I have been Using the IC Diamond TIM for a coup;le of months now independent of these tests. I purchased mine through Petra's to try out and now highly reccomend and use it in most applications.
I found I needed to use more than I would of the X23 Shin but the results surprised me. I am used to putting a tiny amount of TIM on in order to get good results...I can really blob on the Diamond Paste and still see better than Shin Etsu Performance.
It's good stuff.
yeah you could do that! it would be a good test to see if they get good enough preasure without bending the stock hold downs or something!:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by 64dragon
EDIT: so has anyone used this stuff with phase yet????
Good question. Does ICD7 still work at -50°C ?Quote:
Originally Posted by littleowl
The only thing I would consider might be going straight to -50C without time for the paste to spread or level to the optimum bondline thickness it might jut thicken up to much to spread. Maybe let it sit cold for a while, 4 or 5 hrs? mount and put a space heater or hairdryer on it for ten min.?
We ran a test ICD7 in a thermal cycling chamber - from -40 C to +85 C - for up to 250 cycles (with the copper block heated with 130 W of power) and found no change in thermal performance / thermal resistance of the grease
In a separate test we pulled "full vacuum" on ICD7 with a mechanical pump for ca. 65 hours at room temperature. The resulting ... weight loss was almost immeasurable - 0.3 mg out of 6.2222 g. This works out to be 0.0048 wt %.
Another test we ran ICD7 for 1000 hrs @125 C with no change in thermal performance.
So I think performance would hold at -50. The obstacle might be getting a good bondline at the start
Here's one that I ran three times (yes, 3 times! That's why it has taken me so long to get these results) because I didn't believe the results the first time. This Diamond 7 is a very good TIM.
Q6600 @ 3.4GHz with a Zalman 9700 heatsink.
with AS5
59, 58, 58, 53
with Diamond 7
54, 54, 54, 49
Two Week Cure:
I had posted my Final Results after one week of cure time but I find this interesting that my temps are degrading.
Ambient = 22.7c
Idle:
Core 0: 34
Core 1: 34
Core 2: 32
Core 3: 31
Load:
Core 0: 45
Core 1: 45
Core 2: 46
Core 3: 44
I am going to pull the mount, inspect, and reapply TIM according to coverage pattern.
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4...01largezx3.jpg
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/7...02largevq3.jpg
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4...05largewz7.jpg
I am wondering if I have too much pressure forcing your TIM off the mount? I will remount using the kit that came with the FuZion which has "limiters" in the springs to prevent over tightening. I will re-run for one week to test.
SiG,
This is a good candidate for the pressure test Looks like you have more pressure in the upper left on the last sink pic and a kind of pooling of thicker paste on the rounded edge lower right. If the sink was flush you would have no accumulated paste or the rounded edge, it would have squared off under pressure. Hard to tell from the pics, pressure film will indicate whether I am right or wrong on this.
It does seem Like the "Fan" out from one corner type mounts are giving higher temps though.
Remember that FuZions are "convex" which will force out TIM.Quote:
Originally Posted by tastymannatees
Start up: 04/20/08 16:45:00
Ambient = 23.3c
Idle:
Core 0: 34
Core 1: 34
Core 2: 32
Core 3: 31
Load:
Core 0: 46
Core 1: 47
Core 2: 47
Core 3: 46
I assume the convex feature is a product of the casting? This was a problem I had when I was trying to source boilers for our thermosyphon I could not get a sample that was not convex so I changed manufacturing methods rather than go to an extra sanding process.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
If what Intel says is true that you need 43lbs to make the IHS "flat" this feature would tend to minimize edge contact leaving a contact spot in the center of the IHS instead. This on an initial basis with the light contact in littleowl's post (243) with the pressure film fuzion test, does not seem to be happening - high contact at the edges and much less contact on center with a biased pressure on the right side.
If the convex design is one of intent, you have to help me here as I am not seeing the advantage
Because a lot of IHS are bowed they started making the better waterblocks convex to overcome this.Quote:
Originally Posted by tastymannatees
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
It just does not make sense to me, well mechanically anyway. If you are not on center you have a problem, if IHS and sink have different diameters, sizes, depths not to mention what happens between the IHS and die....I'll have to pick up a couple and run a dial indicator on them along with some pressure film to see what's going on. Maybe I am getting a little thick in my old age.
Here is some good reading...Quote:
Originally Posted by tastymannatees
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&highlight=ihs
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&highlight=ihs
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
but the fuzion is not convex untill you put in a bigger O ring!?
Yes it has a slight convex shape, the o-ring just bows it more.Quote:
Originally Posted by littleowl
really? I was under the impreasion that the fuzion was flat unless you put the O ring to convex it. I will have to do some looking at mine when I get the time to do the next set of tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
Ok, I have the concept down, essentially you are putting the same amount of force, overall increasing the psi in a smaller area over the die. It is quite clear in the grease pattern a single broad line down the middle with a thicker coat on either side. Looks like it would be tricky to get it right.
The paste has hit the bondline as you can see the IHS through it.
Looking at Martijn's post with the stock Intel cooler it looks like to me that intel does the same type of thing. Smaller available contact area higher pressure. I think that locating the contact area inside of the IHS edge is key to capitalizing on performance. The top will flex, the edges will not as much due to the reinforcing bend on the edges.
I bet you could make a better water block by just mimicking Intel's base contact
It will be interesting to see what the pressure film kicks out of all this.
I will begin this post by stating that I have not and probably will not read every single other post that preceeds it... so forgive me if my information is redundant.
After the myriad of opinions surrounding my 33-Way Thermal Interface Material Comparison article, we went back to work with a larger and more improved follow-up with over 50 TIM's tested (or will be tested eventually).
But to the point... we have tested all of fifteen products thus far. It has taken almost a month, thanks largely in part to Arctic Silvers unreasonable cure time of 200+ hours and variations in relative humidity (we test in 10-15%). Here are my test results averages thus far of some popular products:
Temp Difference / Product Name / Cure Time
46.65 Arctic Silver 5 200+ Hours
48.06 OCZ Freeze 1 Hour
48.18 Noctua NT-H1 1 Hour
48.45 IC 7 Carat Diamond 4 Hours
48.73 Tuniq TX-2 1 Hour
48.80 AC MX-2 1 Hour
All of the products listed above have been tested after their respective cure time. If no cure time was suggested, the product received one hour of thermal cycling via timed restart command batch files and F@H clients.
There were not less than eight temperature samples recorded during the test period, which often times would take days to match environmental variables.
For the purpose of confirming results each material was cleaned from the surfaces and purified after confirming that speard coverage was consistant and complete. A second application was applied and then tested, using the same method as above. The results were collected by subtracting the ambient temperature from the processors stated temperature, and then averaged with the other results.
On an additional note, the IC7 TIM was tested a third time for the simple purpose of making sure our results were over-validated. There seems to be a lot of people out there making some very bold claims, and it's difficult to argue with controlled test results.
I forgot to mention that these new tests are performed using using a Intel P4 Northwood 3.0 GHz CPU overclocked to 3.61 GHz (1.648V). To ensure uniform distribution of thermal interface material, we are using Intel socket 478 stock reference coolers which utilize lever arms to compress the unit onto the processor. So far, this is proving to be a very successful configuration. Additionally, we are going to make our entire test results available (hundreds of entries) and screenshots in a package download.
For the pressure film testers- I sent out the stuff today. Got everybody from all forums except 2 as I was a little overzealous on my own testing I ran short and had to order more, so some are getting 5 and some are getting 4 test strips.
2 or 1 can be sent back for digital analysis and the balance you can use on your own account, troubleshooting, comparison etc.
I will email you guys with generalized instructions in the next day or two.
I included a couple extra tubes to compensate for the remounts.
I know it sounds stupid but this was the most complicated mailing I have ever done. You each get six envelopes. 2 donor/print, 2 sample , 1 return, 1 to hold it all...
I don't want to sound really stupid but I have used several northwood chips and your telling us your temps were that high with these compounds? I under stand 1.6v is a lot and mades a ton of heat but something don't sound right to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Das Capitolin
I am doing my best to not take this as a slight against my hard work based on an unfounded opinion, because I know the crew here at Xtreme Systems is better than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by littleowl
Since I didn't release the maximum CPU temps (only the average mean temp) you can have no idea "how hot" any one of these ever got. But to address your concern, I assure you that I didn't just decide to make up a bunch of numbers so they could be published on my website. I have tons of screen shots, and plenty of data.
Just for the record, the most common ambient temperature was 20.4 C, and the most common maximum CPU temp was 69 C.
I think I see littleowl's confusion is at, it's that your using a stock intel 478 hs correct? Most guys on the forum use a TRUE 120 with oc's. understandably your temps will be higher using a stock hs. And i can see that you would get the same mount pressure with each new mount using the stock hs.
I think it just scares the pee out of us when we hear of temps that high so please don't take our alarm as a slight, even though our hardware gets abused, we do try to keep the temps down to maximize the lifespan of the hardware and hearing of high temps kinda makes us go blind to everything else.
Ultimatly though you are just looking for the delta temps anyway.
Not at all certain of yourself, are you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Das Capitolin
Since you have all the data, perhaps you'd care to explain how multiple members here are seeing results that contradict yours, or are they all just voicing "unfounded opinions"?
I have not read your work yet and I am not slighting your work but what I read what you have said here and that just don't sound right to me. :up: maybe it is because of you using the stock heat sink i don't know. i have built and ran close to 30 northwood setups and from what you said here on the forum that don't sound right to me. now if you would have said you were using a prescott setup I would have said that your numbers seemed close to par. I will take time and read your 33 way report as soon as I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Das Capitolin
Just a little side note though I am a no-body so my opinion don't mean a darn thing to anyone here on this forum or any other place . And yes that is my opinion! :up:
Hello:Quote:
Originally Posted by Das Capitolin
I think what you first have to understand is that here in WCG we have a group of close friends that run the app.
Then someone sees a "new guy" come in that has an obvious agenda of promoting his own site and posts numbers that are contrary to what another individual here has seen there will be questions.
Now I perfectly understand you wanting to promote your site and I don't question the numbers you post but please understand the why's of what was said by Littleowl.
Oh yea, I'm Dave and welcome to our little group of mad scientists and crazed crunchers.
We have but a couple small rules here in WCG;
Leave your ego at the door and treat all as friends.
Thanks.
Easy now guys! We're all pals!
I told you Dave's therapy was not going well. :shrug: :shakes: :ROTF: :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] riptide
More horse tranquilizer. Always works for me :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
:ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :rofl: :rofl: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] riptide
C'mon Doc.. I was my regular nice self besides, did you see that guys interests?Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
Interests:
Competing in Submission Grappling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Kickboxing
and age 33..
You think I'm dumb enough to argue with him? :sofa:
Sounds like another Royce Gracie to me and I've watched that guy for years!
Only on the web is it is scientifically acceptable to simply say "it doesn't sound right to me" without any supporting information as to why and people will buy into the arguement.Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
As for results contradicting my own, I haven't see anyone elses test results so I cannot say. My results use as many controlled variables as possible in a test environment. This isn't my personal computer with fans attached and a heater vent nearby; this is a styroafoam enclosed test frame with the exact same amount of CPU coverage every single test. The room is closed with additional closed cell foam insulation around the test area.
So to compare my results with someone elses is not something worth considering. Also... I don't have a financial interest in any of these companies, none of them advertise on my website, and they don't offer me any free gifts or product outside of test samples.
Finally, I am posting my results to share information. My website doesn't need special attention from the handful of visitors on this forum who might never leave the discussion arena to go and read any article I suggest. If they do, fine; and if they don't, that's fine too. I do this to get solid results, and not lean on the opinion of others to support my personal investment in computer hardware.
:rofl: you guys are getting way off subject not that it is anything new but still! :rofl::rofl::rofl:
Reluctantly puts on Mod hat:
Gentlemen:
I will ask that all posts from here are as friends with discussion of the data.
I have no reason to doubt this gentlemans numbers even if they are different than what otherss have seen.
Lets keep it friendly and no temper tantrums.
Thanks for reading.
Dave the Benevolent Mod
maybe or maybe not but you seem to have all kinds of time for being rude. I just said I didn't think the #'s you posted on this forum seemed right. nothing more and you jumped me like I was was telling 10000's of people you stupid. That is not the case but there is no reason for you to be rude!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Das Capitolin
edit: sorry i posted after you dave!!
As stated this is a thread about D7 and please lets keep on topic (if that is possible with this group :shakes: ). We are here to share information personal and professional concerning this TIM so lets try to keep the off topic comments (note to self, stop egging these guys on) to a minimum. :D
10 minute closure while ALL here take a deep breath!:mad:
Ok someone quick PULL MY FINGER!!!!
Thread open.
Now can we please keep this friendly or do we do a segment of
"As the Stomach Turns" and have a little drama here?:D
Seriously, keep it friendly and the veiled sarcasm out of it.
Thanks for reading.
Note: If anyone pulls Fart_Plumes finger I am personally sending them the bill for the toxic cleanup of XS.
Yes, that was an attempt at comic relief.
Finger pullin' is friendly Dave..................
Man, I'm always so out of the loop. :doh:
I like ac5 but I'm a little curious now.
I'll tell you another pullin' thats even more friendly :D ;)
leave your sheep outa this Rip............:rofl:
Let's get this back on topic:
I've used AS5 for years and after what?? 2-3 weeks now I see a solid 3.5C improvement with D7 vs AS5..
That's me, one machine and not a scientific process at all.
Applied in a cross pattern, fairly heavy.
BUT it is fact here and thats what matters to me.
I get better temps on my Q6600 with D7 than with ASS.
i've seen the same with my opteron system too, much better temps than as5.