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05-05-2008, 12:38 PM
autumnale

FSB TERM (VTT) for the P7N Diamond explained

Quote:

MSI Tech. 05/05/2008 It will just be 1.15. Not add-up, and use it carefully.

End User 05/05/2008 To clarify, if you are fine tuning your FSB termination voltage and you enter an integer of 115, does that mean you've set your FSB termination voltage to 1.15 volts or have you set your FSB termination to PLUS 1.15 volts like in the vcore. And if it's PLUS 1.15. What number is it added to? Thanks again!

End User 05/05/2008 Thank you so very much for you help. You were very helpful. Just one more quick question. If the FSB Term integers mean 0.xx volts. Where does the FSB termination actually start from? If you set the FSB Term to auto, doe that mean it's set to +0.00 volts? So what is the base FSB termination value? Is that just the standard FSB termination value for your CPU? I didn't know that CPUs carry their FSB termination setting values in the VID or something. Is there anyway to find out what your CPU's VTT stock setting is? Or do you have to contact Intel for that information? I have my e8400 processor's datasheet and it says that the VTT is between 1.045 and 1.115. Is that what the base VTT would be if I set the FSB Termination setting in the P7N Diamond's BIOS to auto? Thank you very much.

MSI Tech. 05/05/2008 The integer setting allows you to fine-tune the voltage. This value represent 0.xx volt. Thanks.

End User 05/02/2008 Right, you need to increase the FSB termination voltage. But what do the numbers in the FSB Termination mean? I mean they're just integers instead of a regular voltage number that you can enter. Like if I want to set my FSB Term to 1.15 volts, what number would I put in the FSB Termination setting? It's just integers from 0 to 65 or something like that. How do those integers translate into real voltage terms? Thanks.

MSI Tech. 05/02/2008 FSB represents Front Side Bus, this function in the BIOS allows you to adjust speed in MHz at increment of 1. And it is usually used when you want to overclock your system, sometimes increased voltage may be required to accommodate higher clock speed.

End User 05/02/2008 Hi, I was wondering if you can tell me what the FSB Term setting numbers mean in relation to the actual voltage. The FSB Term setting is like in integers from like 0 to 65 or something like that. What do those numbers mean in terms of the actual voltage of the FSB termination voltage? Thank you. Andrew

I got a final answer. That means that setting the FSB Term to 65 to overclock your E8400 is way too low. That's only 0.65 volts. That won't even run the light bulbs on a a coffee maker. The minimum VTT for the E8000 family is 1.045 volts according to TABLE 4 in the datasheet:

http://download.intel.com/design/pro...hts/318732.pdf

All information here is accurate to the best of my knowledge. Anyways, this would explain why people have a hard time overclocking with this motherboard if people have been unknowingly SEVERELY UNDERVOLTING THEIR VTT. Undervolting won't damage anything, but you could tear your hair out trying to figure out why nothing is stable.... :)
05-05-2008, 01:03 PM
theYipster

Exercise extreme caution here!

I may be wrong, but I do not think the information you received is correct at all. Either the MSI Tech didn't understand what you were looking for or was unwilling or unable to give you an accurate answer.

I don't have my PC nearby so I can't check until later, but does anyone off hand remember how high FSB Term goes in the BIOS? If you're setting an actual voltage value, such that a setting of XXX in the BIOS translates to X.XX voltages, then the BIOS needs to support values up to 150-160 to cover what is typically needed when OCing with an nForce chipset. I'm pretty sure the range of available values does not go that high, so my expectation is that either the MSI Tech gave false information or didn't understand what you were looking for (which could be quite possible.)

Second, and more importantly, default FSB Term on most motherboards, including other nForce boards, is often set around 1.1-1.2v just for stock operation. if we are all grossly undervolting FSB Term, then it would stand to reason that no one would have found success with overclocking, or even stability at stock setings.

The warning I would make here is not to overdue FSB Term until we know for sure what's going on behind the scenes, and I would absolutely verify with another MSI Tech over what this first guy says. Too much FSB Term / VTT kills processors, especially those of the 45nm distinction.
05-05-2008, 01:28 PM
loonym

fsb term voltage tops out at 63. I max it any time I run 3.6g or above but I'm not running a new 45nm either. My q6600 seems to love any voltage I put in it as long as don't let temps get too much.
05-05-2008, 01:33 PM
autumnale

Wait it only goes up to 63? Well, how did someone set that to 65 then on the front page were it says the E8400 seems to like 65? And yeah I can see why you would want to confirm the information. Can someone else do since I have no idea if I would get a different tech or the same tech.

How high does the FSB Term go with the P07 beta BIOS?
05-05-2008, 01:34 PM
theYipster

If FSB Term maxes out at 63 then there is no way that the MSI Tech was correct, unless the value se tin the BIOS corresponds to 1.XX voltage and not X.XX voltage. Sorry Autumnale.

Now if 1.XX voltage is correct, then we know something. For 45nm chips, FSB Term should probably be kept below 1.4-1.5v. For 65nm chips, 1.63v is quite excessive, while 1.4-1.5v can often be the sweetspot for 3.6ghz+.
05-05-2008, 01:47 PM
autumnale

Oh dude, that makes so much more sense if it corresponds to 1.xx volts or something. The absolute maximum VTT for the E8400 and the E8000 family of processor is 1.45V by the way y'all.

http://download.intel.com/design/pro...hts/318732.pdf

Table 3 has the absolute VTT maximum under the absolute vcore maximum.
05-05-2008, 01:52 PM
autumnale

1.2v would not be undervolting the FSB termination. According to Intel's datasheet, the normal FSB termination voltage is just 1.10 volts. The thing is if the information is correct and 65 would correspond to 0.65 volts of termination voltage, then that would be undervolting since the minimum VTT (FSB termination voltage) is 1.045 volts according to Intel. For the E8000 family of 45nm processor anyways.

I put in another request for confirmation on the information.

http://www.msicomputer.com/msiapps/ts_form.aspx

If someone else can put in a request with the P7N Diamond and get some confirmation, that would be great. Thanks.
05-05-2008, 01:59 PM
loonym

Here are bios screens of my settings for 3.6g (9x400). For higher clocks the only ones I change are nb volts to 1.525 and vcore increase depending what frequency I'm trying to run. The increase in pci-e freq and expander voltage are only for me to help stabilize my vid card oc.

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/100_2598.th.JPG http://images6.theimagehosting.com/100_2589.a49.th.JPG
05-05-2008, 02:05 PM
autumnale

65nm processors are different. You can go as high as 1.65 volts for the FSB termination and the the vcore max I'll bet. But 45nm processors are much more fragile. 1.45 volts is the maximum for both the VTT max and the Vcore max for the dual core Penryns. We really need a definitive answer here. And that's the absolute maximum. It's not even the recommended maximum. The recommended maximum is 1.3625 volts for the vcore maximum.
05-05-2008, 02:19 PM
pacific vortex

any news on p09 yet?? p07 didnt work for me and I got my new waterblock and just dying to try it out in an 8 multi
05-05-2008, 02:25 PM
theYipster

AnandTech recently released a report showing that excess FSB Term can kill a 45nm proc quite quickly. It's obvious by shear logic that the original MSI tech was incorrect. If it's indeed 1.XX and not X.XX, then yes, FSB Term for the Penryns should be kept under 40.
05-05-2008, 03:38 PM
autumnale

Yeah, it IS an add on. Add on to what though?

Quote:

End User 05/05/2008 Thank you so much!!! Have a nice day. And thanks again for all your help.

MSI Tech. 05/05/2008 It is default value with your particular processor. Thank you.

End User 05/05/2008 Thank you for your assistance. Yeah I know that you guys only provide support for "non-overclocking" usage of your products. No motherboard manufacturer really condones overclocking. :) It was very nice of you to help though. It is much appreciated. So what is the default value? Is that something that you can set or is it the default value that comes with your particular processor? Thank you so very much once again!

MSI Tech. 05/05/2008 If you set 63, the value becomes 630 x 1/1000 volt, you have the option to add this 0.63V, or deduct 0.63V on top of a default value. Again, we strongly suggest that you stick to Auto option as it should do a good job to help to stabilize your system. Finally, we provide support to standard usage of our products. Thank you.

End User 05/05/2008 Some people have reported to me that the FSB Term's maximum integer setting is 63. If that's true, then 63 can't possibly correspond to 0.63 volts. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...178286&page=23 That's the page where people are telling me that the FSB might not correspond to 0.xx but rather correspond to 1.xx. Meaning that setting the FSB Term integer value to 40 would correspond to 1.40 volts. Sorry to bother you guys again but can you tell which information is correct? If your original information is correct that the FSB Termination integer value corresponds to 0.xx. How would I set it to the minimum 1.045 volts that my E8400 needs if the FSB Term maxed out at 63? Thank you very much again for all the trouble I'm causing you guys. I can't go into BIOS to check if it actually maxed out at 63 because my E8400 is RMAed at the moment.

End User 05/05/2008 Thank you very much. That's all I need. I know I need to use it carefully. :) You can fry your CPU if you set the FSB too high. Thanks a bunch!

MSI Tech. 05/05/2008 It will just be 1.15. Not add-up, and use it carefully.

End User 05/05/2008 To clarify, if you are fine tuning your FSB termination voltage and you enter an integer of 115, does that mean you've set your FSB termination voltage to 1.15 volts or have you set your FSB termination to PLUS 1.15 volts like in the vcore. And if it's PLUS 1.15. What number is it added to? Thanks again!

End User 05/05/2008 Thank you so very much for you help. You were very helpful. Just one more quick question. If the FSB Term integers mean 0.xx volts. Where does the FSB termination actually start from? If you set the FSB Term to auto, doe that mean it's set to +0.00 volts? So what is the base FSB termination value? Is that just the standard FSB termination value for your CPU? I didn't know that CPUs carry their FSB termination setting values in the VID or something. Is there anyway to find out what your CPU's VTT stock setting is? Or do you have to contact Intel for that information? I have my e8400 processor's datasheet and it says that the VTT is between 1.045 and 1.115. Is that what the base VTT would be if I set the FSB Termination setting in the P7N Diamond's BIOS to auto? Thank you very much.

MSI Tech. 05/05/2008 The integer setting allows you to fine-tune the voltage. This value represent 0.xx volt. Thanks.

End User 05/02/2008 Right, you need to increase the FSB termination voltage. But what do the numbers in the FSB Termination mean? I mean they're just integers instead of a regular voltage number that you can enter. Like if I want to set my FSB Term to 1.15 volts, what number would I put in the FSB Termination setting? It's just integers from 0 to 65 or something like that. How do those integers translate into real voltage terms? Thanks.

MSI Tech. 05/02/2008 FSB represents Front Side Bus, this function in the BIOS allows you to adjust speed in MHz at increment of 1. And it is usually used when you want to overclock your system, sometimes increased voltage may be required to accommodate higher clock speed.

End User 05/02/2008 Hi, I was wondering if you can tell me what the FSB Term setting numbers mean in relation to the actual voltage. The FSB Term setting is like in integers from like 0 to 65 or something like that. What do those numbers mean in terms of the actual voltage of the FSB termination voltage? Thank you. Andrew

Yeah the 0.xx volts is correct. But it's an add on to some sort of default number. I am in the process of finding out exactly. Y'all were right. The first techie was a little wrong. :)

Edited:

I just found out what. It's an add on to the default FSB Term for you processor. My initial guess was correct. That means you shouldn't be setting these things higher than 25. The FSB Term for the E8000 processors range from 1.045 volts to 1.115 volts depending on the processor. It's just like the VID number that's on the side of your box that the processor came in. It varies. If if you threw away the box... Well, then you're in deep trouble. :) But anyways. They don't publish the FSB Term voltage anywhere. It's probably in the processor ID somewhere. I wish there were a way to pull that information out from the BIOS though.
05-05-2008, 03:54 PM
loonym

The ranges of possible settings for FSB Terminator Voltage are:
Auto
1 through 63 in increments of 1
-5 through -80 in increments of 5
05-05-2008, 07:52 PM
AaronYuri

Quote:

Originally Posted by theYipster

If FSB Term maxes out at 63 then there is no way that the MSI Tech was correct, unless the value se tin the BIOS corresponds to 1.XX voltage and not X.XX voltage. Sorry Autumnale.

Now if 1.XX voltage is correct, then we know something. For 45nm chips, FSB Term should probably be kept below 1.4-1.5v. For 65nm chips, 1.63v is quite excessive, while 1.4-1.5v can often be the sweetspot for 3.6ghz+.

Most logical theory so far! I will ask MSI again to see if they have any answers.
05-05-2008, 08:26 PM
theYipster

FSB Term VID isn't printed anywhere on the processor's box, and technically neither is vCore VID. Each processor has its own unique vCore VID, which can be read from CoreTemp and certain other hardware monitoring programs. The voltage range on the box is the range in which your processor's unique VID will fall.

If FSB Term VID is a number unique to each processor, like vCore VID, then we may be out of luck in truly figuring out FSB Term in the BIOS, as I know of no program available that will read a processor's FSB Term VID. I might add that it's quite unfortunate that MSI designed their BIOS this way. No other BIOS that I know of has the user set voltages is this manner, and that includes the P7N Platinum (in regards to FSB Term at least.) Without knowledge of a base value, setting an incremented value like FSB Term will remain a frustrating exercise of blind trial and error. Not good.

It's still critical that we receive a complete, thorough, and most of all correct explanation as to how the voltage settings in the BIOS work. It's not a matter of overclocking or not -- they were designed / engineered to be there and to be available for the user. There must be a valid explanation as to their operation. However, I recommend that we petition MSI to change the way these voltages are set in future P7N Diamond BIOS releases, if technically possible. I have no doubt many would benefit from more traditional voltage settings. Aaron, what would be the best way to go about doing this, and do you think we have a shot?
05-05-2008, 10:45 PM
AaronYuri

Quote:

Originally Posted by theYipster

FSB Term VID isn't printed anywhere on the processor's box, and technically neither is vCore VID. Each processor has its own unique vCore VID, which can be read from CoreTemp and certain other hardware monitoring programs. The voltage range on the box is the range in which your processor's unique VID will fall.

If FSB Term VID is a number unique to each processor, like vCore VID, then we may be out of luck in truly figuring out FSB Term in the BIOS, as I know of no program available that will read a processor's FSB Term VID. I might add that it's quite unfortunate that MSI designed their BIOS this way. No other BIOS that I know of has the user set voltages is this manner, and that includes the P7N Platinum (in regards to FSB Term at least.) Without knowledge of a base value, setting an incremented value like FSB Term will remain a frustrating exercise of blind trial and error. Not good.

It's still critical that we receive a complete, thorough, and most of all correct explanation as to how the voltage settings in the BIOS work. It's not a matter of overclocking or not -- they were designed / engineered to be there and to be available for the user. There must be a valid explanation as to their operation. However, I recommend that we petition MSI to change the way these voltages are set in future P7N Diamond BIOS releases, if technically possible. I have no doubt many would benefit from more traditional voltage settings. Aaron, what would be the best way to go about doing this, and do you think we have a shot?

I'm not too sure. This hasn't been done before to my knowledge.

I'm exchanging e-mails hopefully I will find out soon. I know I've said this before, but I don't want to bug them too much as they're busy people.
05-06-2008, 01:50 AM
AaronYuri

Prepare to bow down and love me...

My board came with BIOS 1.1B8. http://forum.msi.com.tw/index.php?topic=116792. BIOS will be uploaded in the next hour.
05-06-2008, 03:02 AM
loonym

I don't care if they want to use digits, percentages, actual voltage settings, or have me count the number of daisy petals as long as I know what the settings represent. :idea:
05-06-2008, 03:27 AM
AaronYuri

BIOS is up: http://forum.msi.com.tw/index.php?topic=115073.0. Use it at your own risk!!!
05-06-2008, 05:34 AM
loonym

Quote:

Originally Posted by AaronYuri

BIOS is up: http://forum.msi.com.tw/index.php?topic=115073.0. Use it at your own risk!!!

This is the direction I had hoped MSI would take with bios' for this board. Makes calculating percentages to set GTL ref voltages very simple.
05-06-2008, 05:41 AM
theYipster

Loonym,

I have yet to flash my board. What changes did MSI make in setting voltages with 1.1B8?
05-06-2008, 05:54 AM
loonym

4 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by theYipster

Loonym,

I have yet to flash my board. What changes did MSI make in setting voltages with 1.1B8?

Since you asked and since I love pictures here are bios screens Yipster :D
Multis work as they relate to my q6600, no york or wolf to test (yet)
05-06-2008, 06:21 AM
theYipster

Hot damn! This is great Loonym. No need to petition MSI as it looks like they've read our minds. This BIOS is a fine example that the engineers and (more importantly) BIOS developers at MSI are listening to their customers. Great stuff indeed.

I am eager to hear people's experience with this BIOS, and I will be sure to find time today or tomorrow to test out myself. I'm actually still mulling around with 1.1B4. I've had very little time this last month to play around with my pc, as work and other aspects of my life have become quite busy. Now with MSI making remarkable strides with P7N BIOS development, I'm eager to see how things have improved.
05-06-2008, 06:27 AM
loonym

I've said from the start that constructive dialogue and reporting known and reproduceable bugs and quirks (not simply complaining) with the support people at MSI would produce positive results. At the same time we have to be patient because they have scores of other products to support.
05-06-2008, 08:00 AM
gamin

just to let you know : I cannot see .5 multiplier for my E8500 anymore with 1.1B8 bios (was showing in P07). no matter for me, I'm now running with EIST and C1D enabled :p:

report posted on MSI forum

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