!!!The Ultimate K8L Thread 2007 & Beyond!!!

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Originally Posted by accord99

That's nice. But that doesn't change the fact that maximizing floating point performance comes from using SSE.

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all math performance improves when you work with it, provided you are doing the same math to an entire set of data. Just because you think the Katmai (intel's SSE flagship) is the model for what SSE is.
It was a compromise, it implemented SSE using as little silicon as possible. To achieve this goal, Intel implemented the 128-bit architecture by double-cycling the existing 64-bit data paths and by merging the SIMD multiplier unit with the x87 scalar FPU multiplier into a single unit.

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Originally Posted by accord99

That's nice. But that doesn't change the fact that maximizing floating point performance comes from using SSE.

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That would depend on the specific sequence of instructions, whether SIMD operations would be possible, in the branch conditions, in the dependency within the instruction stream. There is no single magic formula in maximizing performance of software in general; those that can utilize a high percentage of SIMD ops usually belong to specific types of applications.

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Originally Posted by Carfax

But you're doing such a good job ;)

If the instruction fetch is a weakness in Conroe right now, it is likely that Intel will likely increase it to 32 bytes, like the K10.

Not sure how great a change this is, but it doesn't seem too radical.

**Edit** Just got this from the Xbitlabs article:



Apparently, the Intel engineers have found a clever work around for the instrution fetch limitation.

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I am not sure Xbit is accurate on this.... I think they are assuming a 4 instructuction fetch at an average of 4 bytes instruction length so to make 16... but Arstechinica published a rouge presentation that shows a 6 instruction written and 5 fetched... using the 4 byte average length, this would come to 20 bytes.... but I am not sure of the accuracy of the report.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060626-7135.html

Puuhh....what a bunch of random stuff taken from thin air. Lets just keep the focus here....

C2D got 3 128bit SSE units, K8L got 2 128Bit SSE units (Even AMD themselves says 4 64Bit SSE instructions per cycle max...so unless AMD is full of lies.). Also I wodner why this is such a big deal for the fanboys. SSE is only a minor thing. Look at games..C2D at same FSB/Speed is what..10-20% faster than CD. And thats with 6x SSE performance, macro fusion, bigger and better cache etc etc etc etc.

On another sidenote. SSE replaces x87 in 64Bit Windows. So in time x87 will be gone with time...long time. :P

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2768&p=3

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Originally Posted by Shintai

Also I wodner why this is such a big deal for the fanboys. SSE is only a minor thing. Look at games..C2D at same FSB/Speed is what..10-20% faster than CD. And thats with 6x SSE performance, macro fusion, bigger and better cache etc etc etc etc.

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C2D doesn't have 6x the SSE performance as CD. It has 6x the theoretical performance. Thats an important distinction.

Ofcourse, in the real world, you rarely, if ever get to anything close to theoretical performance.

Still, I think you're not giving C2D enough credit. Here are some tests which have SSE optimizations between C2D and CD:

I'll just link the benchmarks instead as the pics weren't showing up

In both tests, C2D is 25 to 30% faster than CD, and while these apps contain significant SSE optimizations, they are by no means the most heavily optimized SSE apps around.

The most heavily optimized SSE app I've ever seen is Lightwave.. I remember when it first became SSE2 optimized, and the P4 just :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: slapped the K7 at the time. Then, when the K8 came out, AMD caught up as it had SSE2 capability.

But now that C2D is out, it just rapes the K8:

http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/...=133055,00.gif

The X6800 is 122% faster than the K8 in this benchmark..

So it just goes to show, that SSE does matter, and can significantly speed up an application's performance if tuned correctly.

Sadly though, developers rarely ever put the effort in to really get good gains from SSEx.

Also, SSE4 will help even more potent from what I hear, and is expected to provide healthy double digit percentage gains on top of what SSE2 can currently do.

Your bench is kinda worthless if it doesnt compare something thats already equal. It can just aswell be cache, macro fusion, speculative fetch etc. We still need a CD in the test as its the cloest relative to C2D. And we need it in a broad view of it. And you do know other rendering SW thats also SSE thats afster on AMD. One bench cant be used for conclusions, even tho I know what your hopes are with it. (But its a dream)

Just take 3Dmax7 and its a whole lot different (Or Cinebench).
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...px?i=2795&p=11

Now what you should have done if you wanted to make any conclusion. Is to take an equal FSB Core and Core 2 like in this mobile view:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...spx?i=2808&p=1

So...your SSE conclusion is...wrong.

And please do note:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...spx?i=2808&p=4

How much difference is needed just for the performance delta between the 2.

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Originally Posted by Shintai

Your bench is kinda worthless if it doesnt compare something thats already equal. It can just aswell be cache, macro fusion, speculative fetch etc. We still need a CD in the test as its the cloest relative to C2D. And we need it in a broad view of it. And you do know other rendering SW thats also SSE thats afster on AMD. One bench cant be used for conclusions, even tho I know what your hopes are with it.

Just take 3Dmax7 and its a whole lot different (Or Cinebench).
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...px?i=2795&p=11

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What? Did you even look at the benchmarks?

I provided 2 benchmarks which had a Core 2 Duo and a Core Duo, at very similar clockspeeds. Those were the encoding tests.

The rendering test didn't have a Core Duo, but it did have a K8 and a P4.

Also, since the C2D came out, there is no rendering software that I know of which performs faster on the K8.

When the K10 debuts, this may change, but as for now, C2D rules the roost in rendering.

But my point with the Lightwave bench was to show you that SSEn optimizations when done correctly, can give some hefty performance increases.

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Originally Posted by Shintai

Now what you should have done if you wanted to make any conclusion. Is to take an equal FSB Core and Core 2 like in this mobile view:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...spx?i=2808&p=1

So...your SSE conclusion is...wrong.

And please do note:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...spx?i=2808&p=4

How much difference is needed just for the performance delta between the 2.

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Um, I explain this earlier when I replied to one of your posts somewhere at the top of the page.

The reason why the performance delta between C2D and Core Duo is smaller in the Anandtech review is because the C2D is bandwidth starved by running at such a low FSB.

Granted, the Core Duo is also bandwidth starved, but the Core 2 Duo is even more so, as it has far more execution resources to feed.

The two encoding benches I used as examples, had the Core Duo running on a desktop mainboard, so the FSB could be cranked up.

Therefore, the performance delta between the Core Duo an Core 2 Duo in that review was much higher than the Anandtech review.

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Originally Posted by Carfax

What? Did you even look at the benchmarks?

I provided 2 benchmarks which had a Core 2 Duo and a Core Duo, at very similar clockspeeds. Those were the encoding tests.

The rendering test didn't have a Core Duo, but it did have a K8 and a P4.

Also, since the C2D came out, there is no rendering software that I know of which performs faster on the K8.

When the K10 debuts, this may change, but as for now, C2D rules the roost in rendering.

But my point with the Lightwave bench was to show you that SSEn optimizations when done correctly, can give some hefty performance increases.

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No..you provided a benchmark with a 1066FSB C2D vs a 667FSB CD. As I said, compare something equal if you want to bench. I provided you with benchmark of a CD and C2D with the SAME FSB! And we all (cept you maybe) that encoding is heavily memory bandwidth dependent.

Also your benchmark site got a 945G chipset vs a 975X in the comparision.

And even then...I guess you wanted to skip the rendering part of the review you added aswell?
http://www.behardware.com/articles/6...-duo-test.html

Not really much difference is there?

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Originally Posted by brentpresley

DUH. :stick:

With EACH able to perform on 2 x 64-bit operations each.

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Like described in AMD's patent no. 6,944,744?

Well, I didn't read so far, that C2D could issue 2x 64bit operations to each of the FMUL/FADD ports (4 µOps to 2 ports in one cycle).

It's also important to note, that SSE loads/stores and mem operands are handled by separate µOps. There K10 is behind, because it only can handle up to
1 FMUL
1 FADD
1 FMOV (in FMISC, since FMUL/FADD are already in use)
2 load operations (as memory operands)
per cycle.
It's even possible to keep that level by decoding only 3 SSE ops per cycle. However, this is a theoretical maximum. Most operations seen in real world don't care about such maxima (because it's difficult to exploit them all the time). You'll often see MULPD/ADDPD mixes with some SHUFPDs and MOVAPDs and mem operands.

What was the thread title again???:confused:

"The Ultimate Core2Duo Vs Core DUo Thread 2007 & beyond!!!" ???

Of course not.Sad.:slapass:

K8L will rock , you only need to have a little faith. ;)

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Originally Posted by brentpresley

Fanboy's have plenty of faith.

What we are lacking are benchmarks.

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And your flaming again:mad:

Please keep on topic now
This is about K10 only

Brent ,dude,you guys are even not discussing/speculating the K10 ,you are talking about the Core Duo(as Yonah...) man!THAT IS SAD.Period!

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Originally Posted by brentpresley

My posts had C2D (NOT Yonah) comparing K8L/K10.

Since they will be DIRECT competitors, that is a VERY FAIR comparison.

Your just pissy b/c all there is to talk about is speculation.

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I've read through this thread and I'm eager as the next guy to see what the future holds, but what in the world is the point of arguing about something we are speculating about. Lets just wait and see. Calm down people. Brentpresley, just ignore those who flame because they don't like a point you've made. Come on people.

Ok, how about this, this thread is about AMD. Not about comparing to Intel. Brent, call someone a fanboy and you will be taking some time off.

Keep the thread on topic and stay the he** out if you have nothing worth saying.

K?
K.

IFMU

These policies are absurd..

How can you discuss AMD without discussing their principal competitor Intel?

They are two sides of a coin, and the C2D is the only barometer we have for estimating the performance of the K10, therefore any discussion on the C2D as it relates to the K10, is valid.

I posted the C2D and the K8 benchmarks, because I wanted to demonstrate the value of a good SSE2 implementation (which is important to AMD), which Shintai was dismissing..

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Originally Posted by Carfax

These policies are absurd..

How can you discuss AMD without discussing their principal competitor Intel?

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Well no one is forcing you to stay here.
I am sick of people who hate AMD/Intel going into the others section and doing nothing but bashing those who like the section THEY ARE IN.
If you dont like one brand, go to the other section and stay there.
By the gawds is it so hard to have a discussion about something without someone having to call you a fanboy because you like one over another?
If you want to discuss AMD vs Intel or AIT vs nVidia? then do in in the General Hardware areas, not in the areas that are dedicated to them specificly.
Is that hard to comprehend for anyone?
If I think all cars suck I am not going to go into the Car/Trucks section just to tell everyone they are fanboys.

It is the way it is, if you dont like it no one is forcing anyone to be here.
This is not a democracy.

IFMU

P.S. Yes you can report this post to other staff if you feel I have attacked you in some way.

Otherwise
Accept it
Acknowledge it
Move on.

does any on have any idea how much will these k8l chips cost, when they come out?
and does any one know the date when they WILL come out?

Well according to Amd they come in q2 2007 and hkepc had a article stating that K10 Opterons come from 1,9-2.5 ghz in q2 2007 .
I have posted the links in this thread. Im too lazy to search true 26 pages with mostly arguing now, sorry . Perhaps i relink them later.

We will probably see Opterons Barecelona (socket 1207 2p 4x2=8cores) and
Budapest (Am2 Opterons 1000series). But they will probably be few in the channel:(. As for prices . I would guess cheapest for 400$.




http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...6&d=1168793639

Ok found one :)
I see if i can link the others later:)

ok thanks for the info gues, so mid 07 thats too long i want one now :D

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Originally Posted by IFMU

Well no one is forcing you to stay here.
I am sick of people who hate AMD/Intel going into the others section and doing nothing but bashing those who like the section THEY ARE IN.
If you dont like one brand, go to the other section and stay there.
By the gawds is it so hard to have a discussion about something without someone having to call you a fanboy because you like one over another?
If you want to discuss AMD vs Intel or AIT vs nVidia? then do in in the General Hardware areas, not in the areas that are dedicated to them specificly.
Is that hard to comprehend for anyone?
If I think all cars suck I am not going to go into the Car/Trucks section just to tell everyone they are fanboys.

It is the way it is, if you dont like it no one is forcing anyone to be here.
This is not a democracy.

IFMU

P.S. Yes you can report this post to other staff if you feel I have attacked you in some way.

Otherwise
Accept it
Acknowledge it
Move on.

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thanks for stepping into this thread and placing a logical order into the manner upon which people should be posting in this thread and most importantly in this particular part of the forum.

its difficult to understand how some clearly inteligent people are unable to understand the concept of the forums title; AMD. While discussion is required between both competitors cpus this comparison, analysis and disection should be conducted in the correct part of the forums. This is not the place to do it.

The general hardware section would welcome the traffic ;) Please peeps, take it to the correct section and leave the 'fanboys' to discuss the cpus they like without the need to defend this.

im thankful to the mods here at XS, they keep things from really boiling over, nipping it in the bud. Sometimes it looks like they aint around but when required their presence can be felt.

:clap:



mong

Amen to that IFMU...I want to read information, not fight flames.

I don't know anything about K8L, but I'd like to know what type of memory K8L mobos will support. I want to invest in a K8L system later, so I'd like to keep my eye open for any deals. Or do you recommend waiting because better memory tech for K8L systems will be available sometime next year?

K8L will support DDR2 and DDR3. I would wait until 2GB modules become a little more mainstream, if you ask me.