6800le 'Black Screen' - The Complete Guide: Identification, modification and reason

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Originally Posted by xan

I'll try to measure these values for you, SikaRippa.

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No reason to be hurry, but if you are willing to measure the values =>
:toast:

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Originally Posted by xan

I have some observations:

My PSU is rather not popular worldwide due it's manufactured by polish Ropla company.It's solid 400 Watt PSU. It's very good, it's running better than any of Ultra's (i got 2 before).
It has two cables with molex connectors, 2 per each cable.
When card is connected without any other devices on the same cable it works good, but when I connect it with DVD-RW or HDD, card is bs-affected!

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Power supply DO have effect ! I have put most of my power supply thoughts to post #1, but here is short summary:

- I tested two supplies: very bad/cheapo and good zalman (very low ripple voltages)
- With good supply I was able to prevent BS in 'SkiAlpin' with win98 completely but not with w2k (I still got BS with win98, some cases in HL2)
- Added capacitors into MOLEX-connector helped considerably with poor supply (not tested with good one, since it has capacitors inside :D :D)
- I have allways (?) used a dedicated (own) molex-line for 6800le to have better current sourcing capability from supply. Good point 'xan' to mention this one :up:, I will add it to document..

When I was thinking BS-feature in *deep*, I found that the one of the most important fundamental problems with this design is the usage of 5 V supply for memory voltage generation. Vcore is generated from 12 V and I think the 'overhead' between voltages make Vcore fundamentally more stabile. The regulator converts Vin -> Vout (5 V -> 2.72 v, for Vmem), and here the ratio is far too low Vout/Vin > 0.5 . This makes the operation highly sensitive to all parameter changes as we have seen/proofed. I suppose (not 100 % proofed, yet) that having a SMALL over-voltage on 5 V Molex (5.25, 5.5 ?) the BS-propability would be reduced considerably in all cases. That would give clean/simple/sensible explantion why other CARDS are working better, since voltages varies between different PSU's.

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I'll will be out-of-www some days - no fast comments until back.

just try to put GF6800 alone on the 1 power cable. Remove cd-roms and other noisy devices.

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Originally Posted by SikaRippa

So you have EXCATLY the same model on that foto or model like this:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6121/...p3004xk.th.jpg

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Actually no, my card looks exactly like this:
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/9...lev16ip.th.jpg

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Originally Posted by SikaRippa

However, OC-capability might remain poor due to unoptimal feedback components. (What clock-frequencies you have now ? )

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I don't know what the clock is, but i have not OC, yet.

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Originally Posted by SikaRippa

Therefore I suggest to also add extra capacitor between TP10-TP9 (get the best your daddy's 'firma' could provide = very low ERS ~ 50 mohm).

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Thanks for that suggestion, I'll try to find out what my dad can get ;)

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Originally Posted by SikaRippa

I assume the pipes remain the same condition when cap modded i.e. if you could not unlock them now, probably the situation will not be better afterwards - but no big deal to test :)

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I have not tried to unlock pipes, but i will try after the mod. If u know any driver, which can softmod an 6800LE, plzz link to it.

Thank you for your fast answer, i let u know how it goes.
Btw i am from DK ;)

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Originally Posted by Graversen

Actually no, my card looks exactly like this:


I don't know what the clock is, but i have not OC, yet.


Thanks for that suggestion, I'll try to find out what my dad can get ;)


I have not tried to unlock pipes, but i will try after the mod. If u know any driver, which can softmod an 6800LE, plzz link to it.

Thank you for your fast answer, i let u know how it goes.
Btw i am from DK ;)

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OK.. Thanks for info !

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About version. I meant you had GREEN capacitors and NOT purple ones (yes, there are two version of cooler but that is not so important)

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There is NO soft mod (for BS) available, since it is a hardware problem. Some software methods exits: setting vsync=om, underclocking or using windows98 (worked me for some extent) BUT those are not *real* solutions.

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I was quite easy to guess you are Danish: farnell.dk and 'name' of *sen :D

Hi,
because none of the mods seems really to help, i wanted to lower the memclocks... But this doesnt anymore. I cant chance the frequencies to 513-699, the nvidia driver doesnt let me choose these frequencies (the test fail) and when i set them with powerstrip, i get artifacts (flickering polygons) in some games. Imho this is really strange because <513 and >700 work without any problems except BS.
This seems to be because of the hardware, i have the same problems with windows and linux.
I'll try it without and with the fan now, but this is really strange.
Sidolin

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Originally Posted by Sidolin

Hi,
because none of the mods seems really to help, i wanted to lower the memclocks... But this doesnt anymore. I cant chance the frequencies to 513-699, the nvidia driver doesnt let me choose these frequencies (the test fail) and when i set them with powerstrip, i get artifacts (flickering polygons) in some games. Imho this is really strange because <513 and >700 work without any problems except BS.
This seems to be because of the hardware, i have the same problems with windows and linux.
I'll try it without and with the fan now, but this is really strange.
Sidolin

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Sad you still have problems (or even more severe problems..)

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I *really* wonder what is problem with your card ? Since the tricks you have done usually gives better results and your card is still working OK (except BS) the problem HAS to be related mods you have performed. In theory BS could be caused also by problems in the Vcore generation, but all evidence so far have shown that Vmem node would be the only problem. Since, your card worked better for a while the feedback path of regulator (those tiny capacitors) should not be the limiting factor. In the case of MSI-card (like you) feedback response seems to be limiting factor (AFAIK), but performance should be better that you have now. Therefore, I suggest that following aspects might be responsible:

- Replaced capacitors (PXA's) are ruined due to soldering (heat) or because they are old/used.
- There are 'cold' soldering (bad contacts) in the leads of capacitors

'Bad contacts' is more likely alternative, as can be seen in your foto:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5981/10013473oj.th.jpg

.. as the solder does not look like 'smooth' but quite 'robust'. Finnish user reported a similar case where he had major problems after replacing capacitors, and got the card working very well after some attempts of soldering. Give a try to solder those again: clean leads/pads with a solder wick and attach again with proper solder

What capacitor you added between TP's (manufacturer, series) and did you solder it ?

Hey i fixrd my card several weeks ago and now i noticed it today twice that my screen went black, but only the 3d application i can go back to windows..and restart it.
I also had it two or three times that my screen resolution switched and went black for a short moment half a second and then restored the screen...could this be caused by the blackscreen issue?

Before i fixed my card the black screen was black and locked my pc up...

EDIT: After several start/crash`s of BF2 it went to start textures transparent and in a split second black screen.

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Originally Posted by Sh0rt

Hey i fixrd my card several weeks ago and now i noticed it today twice that my screen went black, but only the 3d application i can go back to windows..and restart it.
I also had it two or three times that my screen resolution switched and went black for a short moment half a second and then restored the screen...could this be caused by the blackscreen issue?

Before i fixed my card the black screen was black and locked my pc up...

EDIT: After several start/crash`s of BF2 it went to start textures transparent and in a split second black screen.

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Quite wierd.. does not 'sound' like regular BS, since BS ==== allways shutdown AFAIK

(I cheked your 1st post). Your card is GW with "4 8 470 6E" caps and you made add extra capacitor (?)..

Do you have extra pipe's/vertex's unlocked, OC'ing ? Do you have the same problems also with other games than BF2 ? Have you modied something recently (drivers..)?

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Originally Posted by SikaRippa

Do you have extra pipe's/vertex's unlocked, OC'ing ? Do you have the same problems also with other games than BF2 ? Have you modied something recently (drivers..)?

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Hey, i have unlocked all pipes since severall month and i upgraded to the latest drivers a week ago, i didnt experienced any problems after playing a lot bf2 (which is in fact the only game causing BS on my card) it started to get a blackscreen for a split second then went back to normal, after several minutes again. I then restarted battlefield and it threw me back to the desktop after some seconds of gameplay, i went back and it happend again and again after the third try blackscreen with lockup and monitor went standby.

EDIT: i think the problem may have been contact problems of the cap it was soldered on propably but due to problems with my gfx card i had to remove the card several times i think i have :stick: it a bit to hard :) Removed the cap and resoldered it and it seems to be working fine again at least for the last 4 hrs of gameplay... me = :slap:

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Originally Posted by Sh0rt

Hey, i have unlocked all pipes since severall month and i upgraded to the latest drivers a week ago, i didnt experienced any problems after playing a lot bf2 (which is in fact the only game causing BS on my card) it started to get a blackscreen for a split second then went back to normal, after several minutes again. I then restarted battlefield and it threw me back to the desktop after some seconds of gameplay, i went back and it happend again and again after the third try blackscreen with lockup and monitor went standby.

EDIT: i think the problem may have been contact problems of the cap it was soldered on propably but due to problems with my gfx card i had to remove the card several times i think i have :stick: it a bit to hard :) Removed the cap and resoldered it and it seems to be working fine again at least for the last 4 hrs of gameplay... me = :slap:

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Nice you got card working :) (I intended to answer ASAP, but I wanted to think about problem for a while, and during that time you already solved problem..)

It is very easy to explain all those *features* when having cold/bad soldering of leads, since everything can happen if capacitance value is changing during normal operation. This would be similar to case to stick an extra capacitor while computer is running !!!

I posted version 2.1 of document, see post post #1

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It is a major update, here are highlights:

- Gainward identification more precise (figure added)
- MSI cards (foto, comments)
- Sparkle (foto, comments)
- Aopen (fotos, comments)
- "Power supply"-chapter added
- "Ultimate capacitor modification"-chapter updated (figure added)
- "Modification of Switching regulator Feedback"-chapter rewritten
- "RoHs-issue"-chapter added
- "Temperature measurements" (measurement results, comments)

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I *really* finally wanted to put all relevant info I have to this update. However, after collecting data/writing document ~ 6 hours (!!!) I decided to post post it as-is - the rest of the info will be in the next (final?) update (hopefully VERY soon). I have now measured ACCURATELY (milliohm level :D) ESR values of the used CV-EX capacitors users have sent for me. The documentation of the *somehow* complex measurement procedure takes some time....

awesome update!

anyway a small update to my card...idle 42&#176; and about 46 - 47&#176; whiel playing.
As i said last week i think i still get black screens after the cap mod,
it only appears when i have my PC running for several days and then start playing A LOT like 5 or 6 hrs of battlefield then it will slowly start to get slower(fps drops) and get a black screen short time after that(real BS incl. monitor off and lockup).

I can disconnect the power cord and let it sit for some minutes after that i have pretty much no problems anymore until it is up for several days again.

Anyway the way it is now it is enough to keep me happy until i move to PCIe.
Thanks a lot to this awesome thread, now updated :woot:

first post about my card: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=495

I think i will go and try a better PSU in the next days :)

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Originally Posted by Sh0rt

awesome update!

anyway a small update to my card...idle 42° and about 46 - 47° whiel playing.
As i said last week i think i still get black screens after the cap mod,
it only appears when i have my PC running for several days and then start playing A LOT like 5 or 6 hrs of battlefield then it will slowly start to get slower(fps drops) and get a black screen short time after that(real BS incl. monitor off and lockup).

I can disconnect the power cord and let it sit for some minutes after that i have pretty much no problems anymore until it is up for several days again.

Anyway the way it is now it is enough to keep me happy until i move to PCIe.
Thanks a lot to this awesome thread, now updated :woot:

first post about my card: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=495

I think i will go and try a better PSU in the next days :)

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Thank you for giving nice feedback :D I really try to document remaining details soon: ESR-measurements etc.

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I did not get what power you have now (max power, good/bad) ? I wonder the problem in your case is not power, since BS is so rarely appeared (a new power maybe will not make any difference?)

The lowering of FPS just before BS is new 'feature' for me, thank you for info :) That would indicate the card is running very hot (high load) just before BS = makes sense. What you mean with slowly, minutes/seconds before BS ?

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I hope your extra capacitor will serve well :) , at least many users with "4 8 470 6E" capacitors this modifications has been working for a long time (depends heavily on quality of added capacitor)

I did not get what power you have now (max power, good/bad)

-- 400w enermax it has some years on its back by now ;)

The lowering of FPS just before BS is new 'feature' for me, thank you for info :) That would indicate the card is running very hot (high load) just before BS = makes sense. What you mean with slowly, minutes/seconds before BS ?

-- it starts by texture errors you turn and certain textures are missing or clear and stuff an short after that normally not more than 5 seconds the screen goes black for a split second then restores...last chance to get back to windows...another 5 seconds and the blackscreen with lockup appears.

I hope your extra capacitor will serve well :)

-- by now it serves very well, expect the long long time running before long gaming sessions.

oh i maybe would add Battlefield2 to the first post it is the only game that can regulary cause blackscreens on my system :P

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Originally Posted by Sh0rt

-- 400w enermax it has some years on its back by now ;)

-- it starts by texture errors you turn and certain textures are missing or clear and stuff an short after that normally not more than 5 seconds the screen goes black for a split second then restores...last chance to get back to windows...another 5 seconds and the blackscreen with lockup appears.

-- by now it serves very well, expect the long long time running before long gaming sessions.

oh i maybe would add Battlefield2 to the first post it is the only game that can regulary cause blackscreens on my system :P

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Thanks for info. I have not before heard (or see myself) any 'warning sign' before BS, so this is quite interesting 'feature' indeed. For me (usually also for
others?) BS becomes so quickly (without any notice) that anything can not be done i.e. no change to quit game or get back to windows. With my first GW6800le-card (similar to your "4 8 470 6E") I managed to make a 'BS-quicksave' for HL2. Using the 'BS-quicksave' BS appeared ALLWAYS when moving some steps to correct (or wrong :) ) direction. The 'BS-quicksave' was very usefull to test in a FAST manner effect of different mods etc. Anyway, when testing several times with that 'BS-quicksave' I did not notice any slow down neither when testing ~ n times with SkiAlpin. I do not have BF2, so I do not have any own experiences. However, in Finnish forum I heard somebody having quite similar problem i.e. 'BF2 slow down after hard gaming', but in that case no BS (?)

Graphics engine of BF2 is propably running in a different manner compared to many other games (=very hard load). Maybe, it provides even better BS-test than F.E.A.R, which has been reported to be more powerfull BS-test than 'SkiAlpin'. Have you tested F.E.A.R (or demo) ?

The blackscreen warning is a really interresting feature on my card. As i said it will only appear after a long uptime and long gaming time...the short turn off turn on of the Graphics Signal is a clear indicator that it will happen really soon. I have this problem since the cap mod. If i try to start the game after that again this will happen again until i turn off the PC and let it rest for some minutes then i have plenty of hours of fun before it starts again.

BF2 has a demo version out which is free of course, maybe you want to check it out: http://www.ea.com/official/battlefie.../downloads.jsp scroll down a bit :)

No i will test F.E.A.R when i have time at the moment i gotta lot of work and stuff to do, time is pretty rare. I am glad to help when time is permitting :P

Greets all.

I've been reading this threat with MUCH interest. I Purchased a Leadtek 6800 lastweek.

Im using caps with 40 470 6E on them. I don't get the BS problem at all. I do however get the "noise" problem. This was solved using the Ferrite Filter in the guide. Thank you very much for that.

hi, i was planning to buy a msi geforce 6800le from a friend. I tested it with some games ( not very long) but if i run 3dmark 01se or 3d mark 03 it always goes into blackscreen after the first or second test. My powersupply is good enough i guess ( antec smartpower 350w 21a@12v). The card has the capacitators 4 5 470 6e. Is this a card that should be rma'd or is this fixable?

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Originally Posted by Sh0rt

The blackscreen warning is a really interresting feature on my card. As i said it will only appear after a long uptime and long gaming time...the short turn off turn on of the Graphics Signal is a clear indicator that it will happen really soon. I have this problem since the cap mod. If i try to start the game after that again this will happen again until i turn off the PC and let it rest for some minutes then i have plenty of hours of fun before it starts again.

BF2 has a demo version out which is free of course, maybe you want to check it out: http://www.ea.com/official/battlefie.../downloads.jsp scroll down a bit :)

No i will test F.E.A.R when i have time at the moment i gotta lot of work and stuff to do, time is pretty rare. I am glad to help when time is permitting :P

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I was intending to ask whether you get the same effect right after BS, so if you close BF2 (after slow down) and start it again right away it is still slower that usual (and gives BS ASAP)?

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Maybe I'll try demo later, yes lack of time is the biggest problem :)

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Originally Posted by PaCiFieR

Greets all.

I've been reading this threat with MUCH interest. I Purchased a Leadtek 6800 lastweek.

Im using caps with 40 470 6E on them. I don't get the BS problem at all. I do however get the "noise" problem. This was solved using the Ferrite Filter in the guide. Thank you very much for that.

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Hi PaCiFieR,


Leadtek's have been working usually without BS, hope your card will be good one :) (I wonder the only (?) Leadtek that gave BS had "4 6 470 6E" capacitors)

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Yep. Ferrite-filter is very easy to make, and still quite efficient !!

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Originally Posted by brodela

hi, i was planning to buy a msi geforce 6800le from a friend. I tested it with some games ( not very long) but if i run 3dmark 01se or 3d mark 03 it always goes into blackscreen after the first or second test. My powersupply is good enough i guess ( antec smartpower 350w 21a@12v). The card has the capacitators 4 5 470 6e. Is this a card that should be rma'd or is this fixable?

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Hi brodela,

Having BS during 3dmarks means 'a card at very bad condition' i.e. the original capacitors are totally ruined AFAIK. If you ( your friend?) can RMA it that would be the best choice. In the case not possible, I wonder the only mod I can recommend is changing the capacitors (added capacitor propably does not help too long).

I think the PSU you have is good enough (if you do not have MANY other devices connected)

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Originally Posted by SikaRippa

I was intending to ask whether you get the same effect right after BS, so if you close BF2 (after slow down) and start it again right away it is still slower that usual (and gives BS ASAP)?

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It will occur within a minute or two, if i escape the Blackscreen again and start bf2 again it will occur within seconds...after 2 escapes when i start it again it will BS in no time :) After two escapes i have the last chance to shutdown my PC let it rest for some minutes(10 - 15) then it will work perfectly for a good while :)

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Originally Posted by Sh0rt

It will occur within a minute or two, if i escape the Blackscreen again and start bf2 again it will occur within seconds...after 2 escapes when i start it again it will BS in no time :) After two escapes i have the last chance to shutdown my PC let it rest for some minutes(10 - 15) then it will work perfectly for a good while :)

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Thank for full explanation ! I'll test demo myself (now downloading). My current GW has not (yet) given BS, and IT will get hard test soon :D The effect you explained has to be related to temperature, because waiting for 10-15 minutes 'heals' computer = > I will also measure temperatures of components in the same manner documented in the last update.

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Originally Posted by SikaRippa

Thank for full explanation ! I'll test demo myself (now downloading). My current GW has not (yet) given BS, and IT will get hard test soon :D The effect you explained has to be related to temperature, because waiting for 10-15 minutes 'heals' computer = > I will also measure temperatures of components in the same manner documented in the last update.

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I thougt about it and i dont really think that it could be temperature related, keep in mind it only occurs when the PC has been running for at least two days! The temperatur of my monboard is below 30, the cpu is at 32° and the 6800le is at 40° and under load wont exceed the 47° with the arctic silencer. When i stop the game and will restart it after 10minutes without turning the PC off meanwhile it wont help anything, it needs to be turned off. The temp issue could be possible but how? The CPU and GPU are running at normal temps and the cooler on the cpu and gpu work really good and bring the components back to theire idle temperature within minutes.

Anyway i am excited to see what the temperature test will bring up :P if i can help let me know.

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Originally Posted by Sh0rt

I thougt about it and i dont really think that it could be temperature related, keep in mind it only occurs when the PC has been running for at least two days! The temperatur of my monboard is below 30, the cpu is at 32° and the 6800le is at 40° and under load wont exceed the 47° with the arctic silencer. When i stop the game and will restart it after 10minutes without turning the PC off meanwhile it wont help anything, it needs to be turned off. The temp issue could be possible but how? The CPU and GPU are running at normal temps and the cooler on the cpu and gpu work really good and bring the components back to theire idle temperature within minutes.

Anyway i am excited to see what the temperature test will bring up :P if i can help let me know.

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More or less identical problems were reported by user in Finnish forum (GW6800le, BF2, slowing down after ~1 hour), except no BS. He managed to solve (?) problem by lowering memory clock frequency to 921 MHz (!) .. so he had *quite* high frequencies at beginning :)

One explanation could be bad coding of the game i.e some 'garbage' will be collected to 'swap' etc. and finally this causes inproper operation. Some programs (windows??) do not clear/delete those files completely after closing program, but require shut down. I am sure you (all of you n*n times) have seen situation, where windows is 'in that mood - nothing will work before shutdown'.

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About temperatures. My main interest is the components of the card related to switching power supply: capacitors, MOSFET's, inductors. High (peak) temperature of those could give explanation for effects you found.
((I am going to make some measurements at weekend..))