Nice you get your card working better :toast: Hope you will have better luck (no problems) with the new card and get good price from old one :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by OnBoard
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Yep. OC:ing ONLY when BADLY required (like benchmarks) is good advice for those who want to maximixe the life of card (=capacitors).
hello everybody..I already posted a week ago,or two weeks ago, that I had changed the old capacitors of my MSI card with brand new chemicons capacitors and that everything was fine...till today
Today I played F.E.A.R for about an hour and gess what?! Black screen returned :(
But...good is that I have installed a cap between TP9 and TP10 and the card is already working in FEAR.(I played for 3 hours,this should prove that the card is working).
note that the black sceens appeared only in FEAR(no problem with ski alpin).
has everybody that has changed the bad capacitors tested with FEAR for a long time?
4 sikarippa:I'll send the old caps in a week or so..
here are some photos of the card that I didn't posted last week..
(yes,I'm not really good in soldering..)
http://www.n.ethz.ch/student/robertb...oad/MSI6800LE/
:rolleyes:
That's very bad news :/ I also replaced old caps (thanks to SikaRippa) about 1,5 week ago in my MSI 6800le and... hmm... still waiting for "big return" of BS @ stock speed. I don't play games very often so it may take a bit longer to see if same effect happens to me :rolleyes: Damn MSI :( This card is only a worry.Quote:
Originally Posted by robb-x
If you used AC silencer all the time (with new caps), then maybe this is the reason, because stock cooler blows air directly on capacitors (which may get really warm without proper cooling) and silencer doesn't (AFAIK).
Is it possible to set different memory frequency for 3D and 2D separately? In RivaTuner i can set and save different frequencies only for GPU (memory also, but RT doesnt remember that setting)?? I would like to decrease 2D freq to... say 500Mhz. That could extend live of capacitors :confused:
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by robb-x
Thank you providing nice fotos ! Your computer installation shows you have an attitude to fix/build up computer that I appreciate :toast: (I mean it !!)
Old caps are wellcome :up:, and no need to be hurry.
--
Not so nice you get BS again :( . I'll copy following text from your older post:
So, do you have that 770 frequency now (when got BS with F.E.A.R) ? Did you test (F.E.A.R) with stock frequencies before add the extra cap again ? Anyway, it is quite clear replacing cap HAD considerably effect i.e. you was able to F.E.A.R quite long (even before added cap).Quote:
Originally Posted by robb-x
I explained in the last page (post#468) in the reply to 'Onboard' about my thoughs about BS-frequency increase vs. capacitor replacement etc., please take look about that post. As you have the old MSI card (=BS becomes soon), the values of the feedback components might have significant effect on low OC-capability. Maybe, when replacing capacitors (at least MSI-cards!!) it is good idea to prefer high value capacitors e.g. 1200 uF instead of 470 uF (if available). Lower value should be OK at stock frequencies, but extra cap will help to get more clocks..
When the card was a brand new did you test how high memories could be clocked ?
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I tested F.E.A.R (demo) myself. Cool game, but my main interest was to put my GW 6800le under a HARD TEST (version 1b, =not-yet-BS-unless-a-few-wierd-shutdowns-so-far). I could play trough the demo without problems AT STOCK frequencies, maybe the case would be different e.g. with 800 (?)
Yep. MSI, GW etc :slapass: x1000Quote:
Originally Posted by piaskoon
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I wonder temperature of the REPLACED capacitors is not too big problem (you can carefully test with finger tip, whether those are running hot).
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You can do separate 2D/3D clocking e.g. Coolbits - easy to install/use, since it adds clock setting directly to standard video settings.
yes,I tested also at stock speeds before adding the extra cap(for memory,I don't like to clock the core at stock speed :D ) and BS came very soon.
But OK,now with extra cap it works,so I'm happy
I didn't test OC frequencies yet,but I will :p:
by the way I don't like "conventional PCs" I prefer to mod, but this MSI
card it's getting me crazy
OK. This proofs again F.E.A.R is HARD(EST) BS-test.Quote:
Originally Posted by robb-x
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About OC:ing : I mean did you test OC-capability of your card when BRAND NEW ? The point is that your card is most likely similar to I have measured (by 'money2') and that model has different feedback component values resulting a slower response and lower BS-frequency. If this is true -> these models (MSI's with "4 3 470 6E" capacitors) can not run F.E.A.R even at stock frequency and even with new better capacitors having original capacitance value 470 uF (?). Therefore extra capacitance is required OR changing feedback components.
--
REALLY hope your card do not deteriorate any more in future.
I remember that even when new I couldn't overklock more than 750mhz
Couriuos was that the driver oc test has always indicated ~780mhz as safe
overclock frequence...but obviousely the card never worked at that freq because of BS. :stick:
I wonder if we should write something about the whole story to Theinquirer.net,they usually like to stress the hardware makers when they do
something bad.Only a suggestion
Just a comment about fear, it is super good for finding bs as I borrowed two other 6800le,s which wouldnt do it with any other game I tried. I have a higher end card aswell not relavant to this test but it has to work quite hard to even keep up with the game the way the game makes use of rendering and lighting it should push any card out there right now. I think if you have it or can get it tyr it. Just my two cents. MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
I was thinking for while the issue:
Why the first cards by GW and MSI were/are giving BS much more easier than the other models ?
Here are my thoughts (summarizes ideas related to the last posts):
- At the time very first cards very manufactured there was NO test program/game using FULL memory bandwidth (e.g. SkiAlpin, Half-Life 2 and F.E.A.R)
- SOME manufacturers (GW, MSI... ) selected component values to have DECENT performance with the programs market in that time. Here I mean the speed of the feedback response which has a high correlation to BS-frequency (the highest usable memory frequency = no BS)
- In addition to unoptimized values something went badly wrong with the 'green' capacitors C136&C143. Following alternatives are possible (the most likely options):
+ Capacitor lot "4 3 470 6E" was VERY BAD
+ The card manufactured used process that COMPLIED RoHs -standards
and since CV-EX capacitors are NOT RoHs qualified they got ruined in
the same moment they were soldered (too high soldering temperature).
This is proofed by many users who found the desoldering of the
components very hard (high temperature, RoHs-solder)
- Later (now) manufactures are using lower temperature (special solder) OR using RoHs-compatible components and capacitors will stand for a longer time (even if the ripple current is too high capacitors can work relatively long, if cooling is sufficient)
- I addition to better process control etc. the feedback capacitor values were changed (I have proofed this myself by measuring values) and therefore OC-capablity of the new models is higher compared to the very first models
- An extra problem is that if the RoHs issue is correct, also many other components are somehow bad condition (e.g. all capacitors that are not RoHs compatible)
---
Contacting 'Theinquirer.net' could be good idea, let's think about that !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechicken
I can confirm! I used the enhanced cap. mod. and was able to play at 375/850 MHz with FEAR for last few days and nothing bad happend. Then I turned on FastWrites, and first try of FEAR - and the game hangs up for few seconds (this was the first sign of incoming BS problem). So FEAR is even "better" then SkiAlpin, and shows you whether you really managed to solve the BS or not (at least for some time) ;)
Now I'm playing with FW off again and the game goes on without any stops. So after few days of testing I can say that adding a good capacitor gives a positive result and good OC possibilities! (at least without Fast Writes) :)
Hanging/freezing of GF6x00-cards is also very nasty problem. It can be signal of coming BS, but I am not 100 % sure about that. Reason for my opinion is that freezing issues are common with different cards (also with 6600 !!) so it can not be directly related to BS-problem (fail of switching regulator). Some users have reported it is related to internal temperature control i.e. some kind of throttling mechanism. Because I have never seen those problems I have not been testing different options/settings, but FastWrite = off has been reported a good 'workaround'. A good added capacitor has also helped some users (this is possible of course only with some 6800/le -cards). Following GOOD (??) solution has been posted:Quote:
Originally Posted by bertos
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?s...&hl=stuttering
.. so 'stuttering' = freezing SHOULD be removed with RivaTuner settings. Give a try, I you encountering these problems.
--
bertos & robb-x : What 'quality' settings you have when running F.E.A.R ? I do not usually use any AA & AF and 'low' resolution 1024*768, which lowers BS/freezing propability.
-Quote:
bertos & robb-x : What 'quality' settings you have when running F.E.A.R ? I do not usually use any AA & AF and 'low' resolution 1024*768, which lowers BS/freezing propability.
When playing F.E.A.R I usually use 1280*960 and 4x aniso. AA 0X. But BS came also at 1024*768. But I don't remember if Fast write was enabled or not
-
I use 1024x768 with most of the details set to maximum and AAx2, AFx2 (I get avarage of 30-35 fps :) )
I understand that this freezeing is not necessarily equal to BS affected card, cause it can be related to many software or other HD factors. But in my case - I think unfortunatley it is indeed :( First of all - I have the "most wanted" card :) , and the second - as I reported earlier, I really got BS 2 or 3 times (my monitor went to suspend mode, and that's it)
I wonder your card is indeed 'the most wanted' (GW v1 "4 3 470 6E" ???). In fact the MSI v1 with "4 3 470 6E" caps has even higher 'wanted level' (say 6 stars at GTA's scale :D ), since those have been too hard to modify. Peformance difference (GW vs. MSI) has to be due to different feedback response (=component values), but I could not confirm it (values should be measured..)Quote:
Originally Posted by bertos
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I your case BS/freezing most likely are realted to each other more or less. The settings of RivaTuner DID help for some users (even with Fastrite =on) so I suggest to test that trick.
--
I do not remember (or missed..) what was 'BS-frequency' of your card before you added that GOOD quality capacitor ? My point is that you have very good OC-capability (with F.E.A.R!!) even if the card have 'the worst' capacitors. So, if the BS-frequency was low before mod, say ~ 700, you succeeded to make perfect mod without removing old capacitors.
=> 'Enhanced capacitor mod' with capacitor having ESR LOW ENOUGH ~ 50 mohm should remove BS also cards with capacitors fully ruined. That would make sense, since ruined capacitors (in this case) are finally 'open circuits' and a added parallel capacitor should work stadalone when proper enough.
---
It would be nice to heard EXACTLY what capacitor models users have tested in the case mod did NOT work ( ESR= ??? ) !!!
I don't remember if I wrote this here, but I already tried this trick with MemClock=CoreClock in each mode, and it didn't prevent the "freezing". That was about 3-4 months ago...
Usually I got the "freezes" even with stock clocks, but it dependes on the game, and I always had unblocked 4 additional pipelines. The first time I got the BS was at 325/750 MHz in COD2 Demo and FEAR. Unfortunatley I've never tested the card with, let's say, 700 MHz or even lower, to be sure what is the limit at which I can play safely, without any interrupts.
All what I know for now is, that I've never was able to play with mem clock higher than 750-760 Mhz (core 350 MHz) and not to get some errors, freezes etc. After the modification it seems, that at 800 Mhz (core: 350) all goes Ok even with "full load" to the card.
Having tested the freq. 850 Mhz (core 365MHz) I could say that it might be already to much for my card, because, as I wrote a bit earlier, there was one BSOD and one case of "freezing" during playing FEAR (though - for now, never with FW set to OFF). We will see how the things will go on... :)
....
Rivatuner trick I know was something like " force constant performance level to performance 3d" and/or "force 2d and 3d CORE speeds the same" i.e. MEMORY speed is not modified (?). Did you tested the trick like that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by bertos
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Thanks for detailed info about clock speeds. It seems that the (ruined) capacitors have been limiting performance all the time, because of maximum 750-760 Mhz mem clock even when new. So, it really is 'the most wanted' -model, BUT succesfully modded WITHOUT removing old capacitors. Many 'most wanted' (="4 3 470 6E" capacitors) MSI cards are not working with added capacitor or are working only short period ~ weeks. It would be extremely interesting demo for somebody having such MSI-card to make 'Enhanced capacitor modification' with KNOWN GOOD capacitor, like these (~ 3300-4700 uF):
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-...BA0000CE89.pdf
Ok, if you havent got good nerves, please dont read this or even watch the photos.
I got an damaged 9800pro some days before from a friend and saw it had a few "A41V 470µF 6.3V" Capacitors on it which looked like the ones on my 6800le and exactly like the ones on the photos somebody posted here. Today i ripped some of them off the card, it worked very well using a small knive. On the card were about 5-6 of these capacitors, so i had some to train soldering.
Then i ripped the 46 470 6E capacitors off my 6800le (msi) and put some solder (i hope this the right word) on the board where the capacitors were before. Ok, a bit more than some solder.
Then i tried to solder the capacitors, but it didnt really work, the contacs were too small. So i ripped off the small black plastic things and damaged about two capacitors. But without the black things, it was much easier. I put the cooler away before, so i was able to solder the capacitors to the card, less or more. I only trained soldering a few times before, mostly in school building some little things.
I already thought i damaged everything, but i didnt want to give up so fast and put the card back into my computer. But... the screen stayed blank. Then i figured i forgot to put the monitor cables into the card. I jittered too much to put both in but somehow i managed to plug one into the card and: It worked! The card isnt damaged, it works!
I tried some games at stock speed and they worked without BS. Once i tried it with 330/800 and got BS, but i really dont want to overclock the card, i just want to play with a memory frequency higher than 450 ;)
Please Kids, dont try this at home! Or you'll get :slapass:
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/1...13427xv.th.jpg
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9...13409sa.th.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8023/10013415ob.th.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9...13435px.th.jpg
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/9...13436xu.th.jpg
Sorry for the bad quality of the pictures, maybe i'll take some new of the card tomorrow.
:woot: :banana:
The only bad thing about this is that i'll maybe install windows soon to play some games ;)
Edit: I got a bs with stock frequencies in coldwar fullscreen :( I'll try to play q4 windowed now and hope i dont get any bs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidolin
Very nice story indeed :clap:
I agree :D (games is ONLY reason for me to have M$)Quote:
The only bad thing about this is that i'll maybe install windows soon to play some games ;)
--
Yep. those capacitors are Chemi-cons PXA's, I think (could not indetify from fotos, but code are the same) very good luck with you !! Soldering/desoldering of those tiny SMD-components is not never too easy, and here the solder has high melting point which makes thing even harder..
Too bad stil having BS-problems :( (I considerd MSI-cards detailed above, #485), and there are following 'workarounds' for those cards:
1. Having a large capacitance (=1200 uF better that 470 uF) as possible using proper capacitor series (=PXA, SVP...)
2. Adding a HIGH quality capacitor between TP10-TP9 in addition to replaced capacitors
3. Changing feedback components (small capacitors)
Usually '1' is enough for almost all cards, '1' '2' is required for some models and '1' '2' '3' by some MSI's (GW's ?) to get higher BS-frequency than 700 MHz.
Hey, i just wanted to thank all of you guys who helped build such an awesome thread! I honestly havent seen much thread about a problem that had so many tests, informations and answers to my questions!
I had a gainward card with the " | "4 8 470 6E" | China | OK-162/OK-66 (3) | 2 | BS after few months" caps. Which was absolutly right! It was my third card of that series all with the same problem after several weeks. This one was now almost 6 Month and started slowly getting BS...in the end it was so bad that i couldnt play battlefield for more then 10 - 20 minutes!
I then found this thread read a lot and thought i give it a try! My dad has all the equipment in the basement :) So i just needed to find a good cap...i took a 2200mf with 16V. The mod was done 3 Days ago and since then i have played about 10 hrs of BF2 without a single BS! :woot:
Thanks a lot to all the people who made this awesome thread! :toast:
A picture of the mod(i know it looks ghetto but anyway :) ) :
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5011/elko5il.jpg
Hi,
it seems Cold War is pretty strange, i was able to let quake 4 run about 7h fullscreen with stock frequencies without bs, even with ~740 mhz i got no bs (with 770 after about half an hour), but in cold war i get bs the second the level loads. At 700mhz. Maybe someone with a good 6800le could try this game (http://www.mindwarestudios.com/), there is also a linux version.
Btw. here are some new photos, i hope they are better than the old ones, but its not easy to get good photos of these little things.
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5981/10013473oj.th.jpg
http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/9...13518gv.th.jpg
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0rt
Thank you for info about you card and nice you got your card working :)
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Yep... "4 8 470 6E" models will all (?) finally give BS, but can be successfully modded with added capacitor i.e. capacitors replacement is not required like many MSI-cards.
About your mod: What capacitor you used (Manufacturer, series) ? That info would give some idea about how good quality capacitor you added (=will it possibly deteriorate soon/in months/never.. )
Thanks you for fotos. It can be seen you HAD some problems when soldering ;), BUT the electrical performance is only really matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidolin
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I'll check out 'Cold war' and report results, since my current GW6800le have not (yet) give BS. I propably test both versions (M$/Linux).
--
Is the extra capacitor 'Nichicon HM' ?
I will check it later, i picked it up from my dads place has been working in electronics. They are from siemens, i am not sure about the series but he saidQuote:
Originally Posted by SikaRippa
they should be low esr. But he didnt remember :)
Its been 3 Days more and still no black screen...testing exessive Q4, BF2 and NFSMW demo over the weekend :)
OK... as far as those are low-ESR the series is not so important - it should take long time before (added) capacitor will be ruined. Although, the original 'green' capacitors might (or will) deteriorate more when card is older, and I wonder the time required for that is depending on quality of added capacitor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0rt