120mm Fan Testing on an MCR120 Radiator Round 6

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

FWIW, the folks over at cystalfontz say this about PWM minimums on their 3 pin PWM fan controller:


Although they use a different type of PWM (also 3 pin), I can actually feel the fan kick on and off with their controller at lower settings. Anyhow, apparently there is at least some thought that low PWM is also not good for the fan. Perhaps low voltage regulation is no better for that either, but voltage is better for sound quality from the little testing I've tried.

I personally would rather get away from software all together and have an analog solution that uses voltage regulation. Anyone with multiple loops would probably want one control setup for each and may or may not have more than one PWM MB header and may or may not want to mess with extra software and background tasks to control that. I wouldn't mind if something could be programmed and shut down late, but I wouldn't like have to keep a process like easytune running in the background all the time.

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this sounds as if they are using low frequency PWM. in this situation i can imagine it would be more stress to the fan and of course would generate this ticking sound. if PWM frquency is high enough (like intel spec which is using about 25kHz) there should be less to no ticking noise and no additional stress for the fan.

but anyway, i agree, using voltage control will ged rid of this problems and some others. this is why i decided to use voltage control instead of PWM control for 3-pin fans.

4-pin (real PWM) fans should not have this issues and thus can safely run under PWM control given the PWM frequency is chosen high enough.

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Originally Posted by jalyst

Does this mean that if I try to run 1-or-more 5400RPM PWM GT's, off 1-or-more of my MB's PWM fan-headers...
That I also won't get decent PWM control w/a duty cycle at 0%, & hence won't be able to lower it to 1000RPM?

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I guess I'm asking....
How do I determine whether my MB will be able to drop this fan down to it's lowest speed? (1000RPM)
What specs/features do I need to look for to ascertain this?

As judging by Mihallens post, it seems likely I'll have the same limitation.
But I want to be certain about that....

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Originally Posted by miahallen

You can see in a video I made for bing....the PWM version runs at about 2400rpm at the lowest duty cycle with Gigabytes CPU header....but with a proper PWM controller, at 0% duty cycle, the PWM version will run at about 1000PRM.....so, if you want the best, petition Scythe for the PWM version :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUZtA8Lp_j0

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

I personally would rather get away from software all together and have an analog solution that uses voltage regulation. Anyone with multiple loops would probably want one control setup for each and may or may not have more than one PWM MB header and may or may not want to mess with extra software and background tasks to control that. I wouldn't mind if something could be programmed and shut down late, but I wouldn't like have to keep a process like easytune running in the background all the time.

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PWM control of fans with Gigabyte boards is hardware controlled by the SuperIO chip, software like Easy Tune 6 is only needed to change the limits of controller. It's enough to run ET6 at startup, that will load PWM controller with your own limits, after that ET6 can be closed. No need to constantly keep it running in background.

PWM controller that the SuperIO chip has is actually pretty smart, it can be used both as PWM controller or a 128-step analog controller. Download IT8718F datasheet if you want to learn more about it.

^ Do you know if the Asus P7H57D-V EVO has something like this too?
Also I want to know if I run 2x of those faster (5400+)Nidec 120x25/38mm PWM fans...
That the 2x PWM headers on my MB can dial them down to the 1000RPM they're capable of.

checked the datasheet of this fans. keep in mind this fans draw a huge amount of current. you wont get that performance for free!

here we go:

5400rpm 1.1A 2.7A
4250rpm 0.6A 1.4A
3000rpm 0.2A 1.0A

the last (red) figure is the startup current! so if anybody is looking at this fans, make sure your fan header, either motherboard or fancontroller, is capable of delivering this amount of current.

compare this to the lower speed versions:

2150rpm 0.1A 0.5A
1850rpm 0.1A 0.4A

that's a totally different league!

on the other hand, i simply don't get why anybody is looking for such a monster? in my watercooling setup i currently run 3 sflex-f fans in a pull config. and this fans are running at about 8V which translates to approx 700rpm! you can argue my setup is not dumping a big amount of heat, but on the other hand my fans are running at 700rpm. also the use of AP15 on my rad will improve things further. but by no way there will be a need for 5400rpm fans at all!

also from looking at various tests, increasing airflow on the rad will decrease temps to a certain amount, but there comes the point where increasing airflow further wont decrease temps any further. at least not noticeably! so i doubt using such a fan on a rad, although pushing a lot of air through it, wont give the expected results in regards of temps!

for aircooling its not that much different. have a look at the reviews of coolers. some reviews show also the decrease of temps in regards to increased fan speed.
while increasing fan speed from below 1000rpm to somewhere near 1600rpm in most situations reduces cpu temps noticeably, increasing fanspeed further past 2000rpm might gain just a few degrees if at all.

dont think the magnitude of noise coming from fans running at this speed is worth it.

i think, finally you will end up running this 5400rpm monster at 1000rpm still at a very high noise level compared to an AP15.

i agree it, would be nice to have a little more power than the AP15 is delivering:
so i think the most interesting models are the 2150rpm and probably the 3000rpm versions with PWM control. unfortunately there is nobody selling them right now - at least i was not able to find somebody.

so i contacted nidec servo, well in fact it'is the european distributor, regarding this fans. had the idea of ordering them and distributing the fans for all of us.

what i got so far:
nidec produces this fans for the oem market, where nidec manufactures the fans at customers specs. usually the order volume is some 10k pieces!
scythe orders the fans from nidec in volumes of 50k units thus gets a decent price.

it should be possible to get this fans in lower quantities (eg. 100 units) and manufactured to the specs requested (PWM ,rpm sensor, speedrating, ...) but the price would be above 50USD still without shipping cost from here to you guys.

delivery time is another issue. as this fans get manufactured per order, there is a delivery time of 12 to 16weeks! this might be the reason why this fans are out of stock for some time now.

this is what i got so far. will get a real quote in about a week. but as said before, i don't think it will be of much use as the price will be far too high and deliverytime too long.

martin, sorry for highjacking your thread with such a long post ...

Martinm, glad to see you did a reveiw of the Treibwerks as well.

I have the LS models (1250) rpm..and one of the things I did notice or would appear to hold true, since I dont have the technical tools to test this theory with...

Im running mine as a pull only configuration, inside my HAF case 2x ek coolstreams ( yes I have 2 240 rads internally in a HAF 932 case) ;)..anyways it seems to me that my temps are a little bit lower, and im thinking from going by my initial loop setup with them in push* that they are a little quieter..... wonder if you have your testbed still set up to see if there is actually any differance with them in pull... thanx..

and thanx for all the time and testing you do for us to bring these kind of numbers for us to use when setting up our fans for whatever purpose they are used.

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Originally Posted by fgw

SNIP.

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Thanks for all your thoughts, I actually do realise all this....
But that doesn't stop me wanting to try one of 5400RPM's+, just to see how it sounds at 1000RPM.
If it's bearable it'd be nice to keep it at that speed, & ramp-it-up when going for big OC's.
Again, I do realise that there's a certain point where the volume of air hitting the rad. makes no difference.
In fact the particular rad. I'm using is specifically optimised for much lower noise/cfm fans.
So the improved cooling, compared to the increased noise, will be very minimal...
But that doesn't stop me wanting to see what sort of improvement I can actually get.
Plus if the fans become a mainstay, I can always change the Rad. used.....

I don't suppose you're able to answer the question which provoked this response of yours?
Much appreciated if you can!

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Originally Posted by fgw

i agree it, would be nice to have a little more power than the AP15 is delivering:
so i think the most interesting models are the 2150rpm and probably the 3000rpm versions with PWM control. unfortunately there is nobody selling them right now - at least i was not able to find somebody.

so i contacted nidec servo, well in fact it'is the european distributor, regarding this fans. had the idea of ordering them and distributing the fans for all of us.

what i got so far:
nidec produces this fans for the oem market, where nidec manufactures the fans at customers specs. usually the order volume is some 10k pieces!
scythe orders the fans from nidec in volumes of 50k units thus gets a decent price.

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I'm surprised by this....
From communications I've had with them so far, many 'standard models' are available, alas their not always readily available in NA or Europe.
You seem to be talking about the 'custom models' they also make, to meet specific requirements of their customers.
But the 2150 and 3000 standard models don't fall into that category...

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Originally Posted by jalyst

I don't suppose you're able to answer the question which provoked this response of yours?
Much appreciated if you can!

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if you are asking if your mb will be able to control the fanspeed down to 1000rpm, i can't!
in theory it should work as long as we are talking of real pwm fans (4-pin fans).

besides that, your mb also comes into play. some mb's have a min pwm limit for safety reasons. they won't be able to lower pwm duty cycle below a certain limit. don't know if miahallen's gigabyte has such a limitation. may be this can be figured out with the userguide of the mb.

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I'm surprised by this....
From communications I've had with them so far, many 'standard models' are available, alas their not always readily available in NA or Europe.
You seem to be talking about the 'custom models' they also make, to meet specific requirements of their customers.
But the 2150 and 3000 standard models don't fall into that category...

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communications with whom? nidec servo directly, sycthe or somebody else? curious to see who is selling this fans!
just checked the website of scythe. the high speed fans are listed on the japanese site only and from checking the model numbers against nidec docs there are just standard fans no pwm versions listed. so i suppose the pwm version which is seen on the video was coming from somewhere else. nor the european neither the us scythe site lists this fans.
as they are not listed anywhere, i assume there was limited quantity ordered from nidec, thus they will be priced accordingly.

after all, i don't think we will see the high speed pwm versions at retailers soon ...

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Originally Posted by jalyst

^ Do you know if the Asus P7H57D-V EVO has something like this too?
Also I want to know if I run 2x of those faster (5400+)Nidec 120x25/38mm PWM fans...
That the 2x PWM headers on my MB can dial them down to the 1000RPM they're capable of.

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No idea, you should first find out what kind of controller your MB uses, at least older Asus boards seem to use Winbond chips. When you know the exact type of SuperIO chip then you dig up a datasheet for it and check which kind of controls it has.

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Originally Posted by flashnc

that they are a little quieter..... wonder if you have your testbed still set up to see if there is actually any differance with them in pull...

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I'm not sure, I think to have anything conclusive to that degree, you would have to test thermally. The only way I can test with my current rig for noise is in push. A test in pull will have the radiator obstructing and muffling the noise, so it would be very much apples to oranges. Also with CFM based testing, I'm completely missing air distribution or shroud effects on thermal performance, and that's pretty important with the TFC fans since they have a built in shroud in pull that theoretically "Should" help distribute the air flow more evenly. I tested those fans in pull in my Monsta radiator review, but that didn't account for noise...only thing I could compare was the performance per RPM which is of little use.

I would suggest trying it yourself and see, it's possible things like the actual case air flow may also have an impact.. I'm not really interested in doing any thermal based testing right now...it just takes too much time and I can't really test noise at the same time with all the data logging requirements.


Anyhow, regarding this thread. I think I've got a method for converting the round 8 results into this group. I've just about got everything tested now, so that leaves the window open for cleaning up my summary mess and I'd like to get as many fans in the group as possible.

My next interest will be to explore the myths around shroud use and noise... Not sure I'll have much time over the coming weeks to do testing with the Holidays, but we'll see...not committing to anything but enjoying the fire and drinking some good eggnogg..:D

Happy Holidays Martin
Attachment 110494

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

My next interest will be to explore the myths around shroud use and noise... Not sure I'll have much time over the coming weeks to do testing with the Holidays, but we'll see...not committing to anything but enjoying the fire and drinking some good eggnogg..:D

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Happy Xmas and im waiting these shroud testing :)

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Originally Posted by the finisher

Happy Holidays Martin
Attachment 110494

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That smiley looks like it's been hitting the nogg already. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by fgw

In theory it should work as long as we are talking of real pwm fans (4-pin fans).
besides that, your mb also comes into play. some mb's have a min pwm limit for safety reasons. they won't be able to lower pwm duty cycle below a certain limit. don't know if miahallen's gigabyte has such a limitation. may be this can be figured out with the userguide of the mb.

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Okay thanks for explaining this, I'll scour my manual for any upper & lower limits on PWM duty cycle.
Failing that, I'm not sure how else I can investigate this, hopefully Asus email support is decent!!

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Originally Posted by mm67

No idea, you should first find out what kind of controller your MB uses, at least older Asus boards seem to use Winbond chips. When you know the exact type of SuperIO chip then you dig up a datasheet for it and check which kind of controls it has.

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Okay will do, thanks!

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

That smiley looks like it's been hitting the nogg already. :rofl:

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Attachment 110518

I looked for that one for a while :toast2:

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Originally Posted by jalyst

Miahallen obtained the 25mm 5400RPM PWM Nidec directly from retailers in Japan.
I find it odd that this fan isn't also available with some wholesalers/retailers in the US/EU.
After all, according to Nidec's site, their only distributors seem to be based in North America.
Unless their site is omitting a lot of detail about their distribution/wholesale channels? :shrug:

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I've been trying to find other sources, than some Online US retailers for Nidec GT's. Still can't buy AP-15's that I know:confused: So far no luck at all, About the only industrial brand I can't find online, in US.

I knew it! I've got 2xSanyo Denki San Ace 9G1212H101 38mm and they are worse than the discontinued Sanyo Denki San Ace 109R1212H1011 38mm.
The noise profile of 9G1212H101 is worse and it produces higher vibrations than my Panaflo FBA12G12H. I've got Zalman ZM-F3 too and it is a great fan. Great roundup, Martin!

FYI,
AndreaBZ has been busy updating the database viewing spreadsheet..thanks:up:

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Originally Posted by AndreaBZ

Hello Martin!
Fans Spreadsheet.
Please enter this new link in place of the previous.

http://www.coolingtechnique.com/inde...=84&Itemid=124

So can I update
Soon update it with the fans from 140 mm

happy new year! :up:

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I haven't checked it out yet (Having PC troubles again, DFI sata port problems and I'm looking to upgrade hardware now), but let me know if you see any issues with the fan sheet.

Very impressive work Martin, you've done a great job of producing both objective numbers, as well as allowing people to make their own subjective conclusions from the video recordings.

You've helped to solidify my decision to go with the Gentle Typhoons for my build as they have the best noise/CFM ratio in the quiet range of fans, which is fantastic since I'm aiming for a quiet build for my next rig. Now I just need to figure out which ones to go with, -15, -14, or -13... :)

Not sure if this will be of value to anyone but I happened to stumble across this yesterday while doing research for my own little project.

http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/pr...ew/?id=350605#

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Not sure if this will be of value to anyone but I happened to stumble across this yesterday while doing research for my own little project.

http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/pr...ew/?id=350605#

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I ordered one similar to that on Ebay for DC motors, but the PWM frequency was too low. The one I got may be useful for other motors, but was no good for fans. The PWM squeal was very strong.

I think unless they specify the PWM frequency being 20-25Khz+, then you may get the same thing I did.:shrug:

I know the Bing controller has notes about being set at 25Khz although I think it varies to some degree. It just needs to be above the ear audible range.

Interesting, the one Waterlogged has linked sure looks different/better to the ebay one.:shrug: WL any specs on that part?


I found this little gem for running my S.A. 140's to 24v, any thoughts?

http://intheyear2525.ecrater.com/p/2...rter-12-to-24v

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Originally Posted by the finisher

Interesting, the one Waterlogged has linked sure looks different/better to the ebay one.:shrug: WL any specs on that part?


I found this little gem for running my S.A. 140's to 24v, any thoughts?

http://intheyear2525.ecrater.com/p/2...rter-12-to-24v

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Hm, it doesn't look like it'll be of any value because I just found the assembly PDF that I can swear wasn't there when I first posted the link.:shrug:

http://www.vellemanusa.com/downloads...k8004_rev3.pdf (look at page 2)

Only 5000hz, Bummer:(

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Originally Posted by the finisher

I found this little gem for running my S.A. 140's to 24v, any thoughts?

http://intheyear2525.ecrater.com/p/2...rter-12-to-24v

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I wonder how this compares to the one WL linked to?

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Hm, it doesn't look like it'll be of any value because I just found the assembly PDF that I can swear wasn't there when I first posted the link.:shrug:

http://www.vellemanusa.com/downloads...k8004_rev3.pdf (look at page 2)

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Bummer :(

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Originally Posted by the finisher

I found this little gem for running my S.A. 140's to 24v, any thoughts?

http://intheyear2525.ecrater.com/p/2...rter-12-to-24v

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That might work...maybe run it by one of the electronics guy. My trial and error success at buying these things is 0 for 1, so I'd hate to recommend anything.:D