X1600XT Info And Updates Thread

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12-03-2005, 08:57 AM
perkam

Quote:

Hey perkam....not trying to be a smartass here, but why is it so hard for you to get a 6800GS....the X1600XT is a joke and performance is absolutely horrible...only the biggest fanboy would get one.....why can't you just open your mind and get a GS....it's not worth it to stick to one brand in particular...and to be honest, it's a bit silly too...

Thanks for the honest response. I dont mind constructuve criticism and you have a good point. As i stated however, the cheapest 6800GS here in CDN is $250, same price for the X800GTO2 w/ a 100% unlock rate to X850XT, which can be clocked to stock score of a 7800gt (7k) in 05 on air as well.

The X1600XT due to multimedia features, VIVO and such, plus that every X1k card has avivo capabilities built in, which will be unlocked in future drivers. Its also only mainstream card at the moment with native Windows Vista LDDM support. You dont get the GS or the XT to play games at 1600x1200 4xAA 8xAF, not that you can't, but for me its more of having the R5xx architecture with future proof features etc. I dont game as much anyway, so again its the multimedia features for cheap that I find attractive. Plus it pays homage to my current 9600 which has been w/ me for so long, doesnt feel right upgrading to a GS with how well its served me :bows: ;)

ALSO, gentlemen i dont wish to see a back and forth ati vs nv argument going on here, so pls follow krille's advice and provide evidence of your claims, which, above all, should be related to the topic in question.

Thx.

Perkam
12-03-2005, 10:55 AM
Pinnacle

Quote:

doesnt feel right upgrading to a GS

Well this just says it all. Well, he is Canadian, I think Perky wants to support ATI :D :D
12-03-2005, 11:12 AM
Starscream

@Perkam
it is true that ATI has said certain features wil b unlocked in future drivers but i am one of those people that first wanna see and then wil believe.
If u compaire the 6800GS and X1600XT on base of their multi media features yes the X1600XT has a small lead.
But the more u game the bigger the lead is for the 6800GS. If u dont game then go for the X1600XT but id stil wait for ATI to unlock all fo the promised features.

i also use my PC for alot of multi media stuff but am atm selling my 2nd PC and building a cheap one for those purposes.

@Ahmad
Nvidia fails Sm3.0 cause the picture rendered isnt 100% identical to the one wich it should render, this can happen if the rendered picture is worse or better. So im yet to see a reason why Nvidias implementation of SM3.0 is better or worse then the standard.

For ATI they also fail SM3.0 due to a missing feature.
If the missing feature is important i dunno, ATI says it isnt important but on the other hand the R500 (the one in the xbox360) has this feature and there r future games wich wil also make use ofit allot.
So if ATIs implementation is good or bad we will see when those games arrive
So to be short there aint a single card that fully follows SM3.0 for 100%.
12-03-2005, 12:02 PM
Cybercat

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahmad

I would look more into it if I were you. Thats all I am going to say :)

you're a tool. That's all I'm going to say.
12-03-2005, 12:22 PM
perkam

It's less about supporting ATI than preferring it. Preference is different from supporting or blind loyalty. I dont defend either company if they're wrong, and I'm never praising either one. But that doesnt mean that I dont have a preference as to which card at the end of the day I'll fell better having in my comp.

Quote:

t is true that ATI has said certain features wil b unlocked in future drivers but i am one of those people that first wanna see and then wil believe.

A treat for you :) http://www.chip.de/artikel/c1_artikel_17670022.html :)

Quote:

If the missing feature is important i dunno, ATI says it isnt important but on the other hand the R500 (the one in the xbox360) has this feature and there r future games wich wil also make use ofit allot.

Answered in the ATI News Thread: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=72799&page=32 .

Perkam
12-03-2005, 01:28 PM
softpain

Hummm cheapest 6800 GS here is 270$ cdn and gto2 is 300$....
12-03-2005, 01:39 PM
perkam

Hey softpain :) Which province are you in? It could potentially differ based on which retailer you check.

The one at Genitech used to be 250..now at 300 ($250USD) cos good ol ncix loves increasing their prices. But yea, PC Village has an X800GTO2 for $280 ($240USD) and ncix has a promotion for a $250 ($215 USD) GS here: http://www.ncix.com/products/index.p...4&promoid=1015 ... so they're $30 apart. I'm hoping the x1600xt will be <$250, but i'm gonna need one which cools the ram as well, unlike the reference cards.

Perkam
12-03-2005, 02:02 PM
Starscream

@Perkam
Ive seen several reviews of this tool but is it already available?

and about ATi and SM3.0
what i said was that ATI also doesnt follow the SM3.0 standard for the full 100%
towards Ahmad who brought up that Nvidia fails Sm3.0 test but forgets that ATI also fails it.
I know that the r520 etc are able to emulate (or however its called) VTF on their desktop cards.
If this will influence performence with games that use VTF alot cant b said atm.
Ofcourse ATI says that their way of it wil b just as good as the way as it is described in the SM3.0 standard but we wont know that till games apear that make extensive use of it ofcourse.
12-03-2005, 07:25 PM
[XC] leviathan18

Quote:

Originally Posted by perkam

It's less about supporting ATI than preferring it. Preference is different from supporting or blind loyalty. I dont defend either company if they're wrong, and I'm never praising either one. But that doesnt mean that I dont have a preference as to which card at the end of the day I'll fell better having in my comp.

A treat for you :) http://www.chip.de/artikel/c1_artikel_17670022.html :)

Answered in the ATI News Thread: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=72799&page=32 .

Perkam

if you are loyal to nvidia they will give you video cards :p:
12-03-2005, 11:43 PM
Shadowmage

Quote:

Originally Posted by situman

you honest think a x1600xt can keep up with future games with more intense requirements when it cant even outperform a last gen card from nvidia?

That's the whole point. X1600 in general is designed for the latest and upcoming games. Hence the huge number of pixel pipes compared to the tiny amount of ROPs, etc.

For proof, look at any graph of X1800XT vs 7800GTX performance. Now, take a look at which game was tested. In general, the later the game was released, the larger X1800XT's advantage. Why? Because R5xx cores in general are optimized for future game performance. Hence the large emphasis placed on dynamic branching, etc.

EDIT: For a far nastier example, look at FX5900 performance vs 9800. Again, ATI trumps at future-proofing!
12-04-2005, 02:06 AM
Tim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmage

That's the whole point. X1600 in general is designed for the latest and upcoming games. Hence the huge number of pixel pipes compared to the tiny amount of ROPs, etc.

For proof, look at any graph of X1800XT vs 7800GTX performance. Now, take a look at which game was tested. In general, the later the game was released, the larger X1800XT's advantage. Why? Because R5xx cores in general are optimized for future game performance. Hence the large emphasis placed on dynamic branching, etc.

EDIT: For a far nastier example, look at FX5900 performance vs 9800. Again, ATI trumps at future-proofing!

Shadow,....tell that to all X8X0 owners....LMFAO....ATi sucks in future proofing....SM3...ah gamers don't need that....* couple of months later* ooops we guess they do need it! :slap:
12-04-2005, 06:04 AM
perkam

Shadowmage has a point. Check FiringSquad's latest CoD2 Mainstream card test...the X1600 came closer to the GS (1-2fps difference) than ever before, plus when the "fear1.exe" tweak is used for F.E.A.R., the x1600 ends up beating the GS. However, it still needs more driver-support. I do not know whether if it is the card's 128-bit Memory bus or something else that hands it a major blow in HL2, almost all reviews shows that the x1600 suffers in that engine (min FPS of 6 !!), but I'm hoping that'll improve as time goes on, which is something we know ATI has promised, at the very least.

SM3.0 is still hazy subject, ATI can never in the short term recognize its superiority over SM2.0b, it'll just state it has a better SM3.0 solution over Nvidia, but thats it. Remember its entire current Crossfire platform rests on SM2.0b hardware. ;) Shader Model tech was a factor in my decision, but it came with a tradeoff. Any 12 pipe GTO for $160 will beat an X1600 at 590/1380 because of the lack of pipelines, so it balances out, and up to the consumer to decide which is more important.

Perkam
12-04-2005, 07:01 AM
keiths

For this consumer, the answer would be drivers. I've had my fill of ATI crapitude so no hardware solution from them is good enough. I wish them ill in their search for more suckers.
12-04-2005, 10:37 AM
Cybercat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmage

EDIT: For a far nastier example, look at FX5900 performance vs 9800. Again, ATI trumps at future-proofing!

you can't possibly use that as an example to help your argument about THIS generation.

modern game performance? what about FEAR?

http://hardocp.com/article.html?art=ODgyLDQ=
12-04-2005, 11:56 AM
perkam

This thread was never made to justify either an XT or a GS purchase ;) It's on the availability of the XT, which is nil atm.

The link you have in your post, Cybercat isn't updated. Driverheaven used the name change tweak in FEAR to find no difference whatsoever between XT and GS performance.

The only XT w/ GDDR3 i can find is on ebay...the reference card :( , which I'm not about to put money on unless it comes with 4 games and all the accessories :p

Perkam
12-04-2005, 05:05 PM
Shadowmage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

Shadow,....tell that to all X8X0 owners....LMFAO....ATi sucks in future proofing....SM3...ah gamers don't need that....* couple of months later* ooops we guess they do need it! :slap:

OK then, lets try a different approach. People aren't getting the point.

X800 lineup is the exception, just like 7800 lineup. What do they have in common? Both are derivatives of an older chip: the 9800 and the 6800, respectively. What else do they have in common? Poor future-proofing.

However, its important to note that SM3.0 is STILL not used much at all, after a year out. ATI predictions came true, eh? No widespread SM3.0 at all... only in a few games, and there is not much benefit (no striking benefit) for going SM2.0-> SM3.0 (in terms of performance and image quality). What matters now is performance, more so than SM3.0 existance. I'm not too sure about which chip is doing better (x800 or 6800) or which one is gaining the advantage since I'm paying attention to the new generation now ;)

A review (or post, I forgot which) made a very good point: had X1800 been released in June as originally planned, it would not have been impressive at all. Look at which games X1800 is good at, and when those games were released.
12-04-2005, 05:12 PM
perkam

Quote:

A review (or post, I forgot which) made a very good point: had X1800 been released in June as originally planned, it would not have been impressive at all. Look at which games X1800 is good at, and when those games were released.

Uh...Shadow, do try to find some links with those statements ;) You make quite a few of them, and backing them up, which I'm sure shouldn't be too hard, is the best way to get your point across.

Perkam
12-04-2005, 05:40 PM
Shadowmage

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2556&p=2

This isn't a good example though, since X1800XT wins against 7800GTX most of the time anyways, and Anandtech only tests latest games.

Better example: Xbitlabs

Examples of X1800 sucking it hard. Note all of them are older games.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...gtx512_23.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...gtx512_20.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...gtx512_14.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...gtx512_25.html

The RTS games in general are designed old-style. That's why Ages of Empires III does poorly as well: the engine is old tech compared to FEAR, etc.

Also X1600 was tested in FEAR without fear.exe renaming.
12-04-2005, 05:55 PM
Cybercat

To say the 7800 series is poorly future proof is ridiculous. Especially from an architectural viewpoint.
12-04-2005, 10:58 PM
Pinnacle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmage

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2556&p=2

This isn't a good example though, since X1800XT wins against 7800GTX most of the time anyways,.

No it doesnt. :stick:
12-05-2005, 05:13 AM
perkam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybercat

To say the 7800 series is poorly future proof is ridiculous. Especially from an architectural viewpoint.

I believe he means 7xxx series on 110-nm tech does not have much left in it, which is correct. However, Nvidia's 90nm tech is coming up sometime q1 06, so they are going head to head with every card ATI can come up with.

Still no X1600 :sniff: :(

Perkam
12-05-2005, 07:22 PM
perkam

Noticed an X1600XT in uk in saveastore or something like that...so they're getting out...VERY SLOWLY. I need for them to be out in full swing by january at reasonable price levels w/ VIVO functions etc so i can make ze purchase :)

By then the cat 6.0s will be out too :D

Perkam
12-05-2005, 08:16 PM
Cybercat

oddly enough every 6800GS on every site I looked at just went out of stock today. WTF?
12-06-2005, 02:51 AM
DilTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmage

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2556&p=2

This isn't a good example though, since X1800XT wins against 7800GTX most of the time anyways, and Anandtech only tests latest games.

Better example: Xbitlabs

Examples of X1800 sucking it hard. Note all of them are older games.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...gtx512_23.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...gtx512_20.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...gtx512_14.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...gtx512_25.html

The RTS games in general are designed old-style. That's why Ages of Empires III does poorly as well: the engine is old tech compared to FEAR, etc.

Also X1600 was tested in FEAR without fear.exe renaming.

Maybe I remind you of the how badly the X1800XT got served in B&W2, which is *DEFINITELY* a newer game. It did *worse* than the x850xt, literally!
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/n...21121/9838.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/n...21121/9839.png
Did I mention this game is sponsored by ATi? Irony, don't you think?

I don't quite understand how you could call the x1800xt more future-proof from an architectural stand-point. Both are capable of 64-bit HDR, both have a maximum of 128bit FPP, both have a form of Transparency AA... Meanwhile, out of the documented features, and only naming ones you CANNOT argue with, as to save us all time, the X1800XT lacks VTF.

The only feature the x1800xt has that the 7800 doesn't is HDR + AA, and I *DARE* you to find a SINGLE game besides far cry where HDR + AA is playable at 1280x1024 or higher on a x1800xt... Oh wait, that's right, there is none. Two prime examples being serious sam 2 and SC:CT were far too slow attempting HDR + AA to be considered close to playable(in serious sam 2 HDR isn't even playable on the x1800xt), and that'll only get worse as time goes on. NVidia was right, this cannot currently be done in a method that's playable, the memory bandwidth just isn't there.

Either way, I don't even feel like an arguement, I'm just poppin in for a second while waiting on some phone calls, so I thought I'd set this one straight...
12-06-2005, 05:03 AM
Tim

I find it a bit sad that the moment ATI releases a new card, support for older cards gets promtly dropped....on the other hand, I got a massive boost in performance when I switched to the release 80 drivers on my 1,5 year old 6800GT!!!!! :cool:

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