Specs of new ATI cards, at Techpowerup

seems to me that they wont make any profit on the XT's at all, especially for a 512mb card with memory of that performance level, on the other hand, looks like the XL will be a cash cow, and more then make up for it with its cheaper components and good features.

this makes me worry about availablility on the XT's, and i also doubt them going below $500 anytime soon as it would be my guess that ATI has the XT to be the performance leader and the XL will be what they actually make and stock, as i bet that they will make far more profit on that.

anywho, i hope i am wrong, its just speculation on my part.

all great and everything but it wont be coming out for another 3 months.. By that time who knows what nVidia will pull.. and by the look of it they still have done nothing to improve their OpenGl support..

uhh, sure ati performs lower then nvidia in open gl, but they are still competetive, and the x1800xt outperformed the gtx in doom3, not to mention most games are in dx anyways...


edit - i was wrong about doom3, they didnt include it in the x1800xt benches, heh, pretty convienient, anyways, they still arent that bad in opengl, even though nvidia is better at it in the end. point in case, if open gl is your priority, it looks like an nvidia product owuld be for you, but i dont think that ati should be knocked for it, they support opengl, and they arent half bad at it either.

I compared the FEAR results from Crossfire and this article:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3...0xtfear3ur.gif
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5...800fear0fb.gif

The performance leap from x850xt to 7800 GTX and then from 7800 GTX to x1800xt is huge.
Its like they improved more than 200% from the x850xt to the x1800xt.
F.E.A.R. might be SM3 dependent and could be the reason why the jump is so huge from x850 to x1800, unless these numbers are :bs: (I hope not)

one was done with 16 AF, and one was done with 8 AF, not quite the same thing, especially for a FPS games, that typically use AF alot.

plus, theres the question of what drivers were used, what PC parts and all that...
so it's no really a "apples to apples" comparison there...

Interesting that ATI says 9100 3dmarks05 for x1800 and ppl claimed that in Ibiza at stock x1800 got 9700. :confused: :confused:
Maybe this slides are from before they increased the stock speeds? Because initially (middle of September) the X1800 worked at 600/1400, but then they decided to increase to 625/1500. Thoughts?

mabe a different setup rig

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Originally Posted by Gibson

Interesting that ATI says 9100 3dmarks05 for x1800 and ppl claimed that in Ibiza at stock x1800 got 9700. :confused: :confused:
Maybe this slides are from before they increased the stock speeds? Because initially (middle of September) the X1800 worked at 600/1400, but then they decided to increase to 625/1500. Thoughts?

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I don't think it was the clocks, I think the clockers had a lot to do with it. Is it unusual that Europes best overclockers would be better period? 600 points worth? Why not.

I would like that 1800 with the ati motherboard...patience is not one of my virtues but I did manage to sell my x800, dfi, and cpu. I've ended up with my old T23 notebook computer and will have to salivate until then.

Might even just buy the 850pci at a much more reasonable price then buy the latest of the greatest and have very little left for food ;)

Guys...the MAIN reason for those performance differences is quite simple... The x1800xt had 512mb of ram, the 7800gtx had 256. At 1600x1200 with 4xAA and 16xAF you're DEFINITELY going to get a benefit from the extra 256mb of video ram. ESPECIALLY IN F.E.A.R.... If you remember, the x800xl actually BEATS the x850xt at high rez in a few games, including call of duty 2.

In otherwords, most of that performance difference is due to that. Of course, it still does beat the 7800gtx, but after 3 months of waiting, plus another 2 months of waiting for them to be available because of the paper launch, did you expect anything different? It is FIVE months later.

Either way, my hats off to ATi for actually doing something right, and hopefully we'll see them(the xt's) BEFORE december!

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Originally Posted by DilTech

Guys...the MAIN reason for those performance differences is quite simple... The x1800xt had 512mb of ram, the 7800gtx had 256. At 1600x1200 with 4xAA and 16xAF you're DEFINITELY going to get a benefit from the extra 256mb of video ram. ESPECIALLY IN F.E.A.R.... If you remember, the x800xl actually BEATS the x850xt at high rez in a few games, including call of duty 2.

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.... u sure? :stick:

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Originally Posted by DilTech

Guys...the MAIN reason for those performance differences is quite simple... The x1800xt had 512mb of ram, the 7800gtx had 256. At 1600x1200 with 4xAA and 16xAF you're DEFINITELY going to get a benefit from the extra 256mb of video ram. ESPECIALLY IN F.E.A.R.... If you remember, the x800xl actually BEATS the x850xt at high rez in a few games, including call of duty 2.

In otherwords, most of that performance difference is due to that. Of course, it still does beat the 7800gtx, but after 3 months of waiting, plus another 2 months of waiting for them to be available because of the paper launch, did you expect anything different? It is FIVE months later.

Either way, my hats off to ATi for actually doing something right, and hopefully we'll see them(the xt's) BEFORE december!

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its never ati's products that i am worried about, it is thier paper launches and price gouging that upsets me.

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Originally Posted by One_Hertz

.... u sure? :stick:

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Positive...Compare results in those games at 1600x1200 4xAA 8xAF with the x800xl 256 compared to the 512, and remember the difference will be bigger with faster gpus...Now remember at 16xAF even more memory is required than with 8xAF. Finally, keep in mind the x800xl 512 beats the x850xt in alot of cases.

Trust me, I'm positive.

The x1800xt IS faster, but the core isn't as big of a difference as ATi is leading you to believe...

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Originally Posted by Overclockers UK

It look like Overclockers UK and other etailers will have no stocks of X1300, X1600 and X1800 cards by 5th October so they will be only available to pre-order, ATI probably will shipping as few as 20 X1800XTs to OEM worldwide on Wednesday. When Overclockers and other etailers will have stocks of X1800XTs, they will charge it at high prices of £580/$1017 for the next 3 months.

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You're definitely right to fear the price gouging of the x1800xt, due to it's VERY low numbers, we're talking almost DOUBLE the price on them for the first 3 months, and we'll be lucky to see them BY december in any form of quanity.

I doubt what Oc Uk is saying is entirely true for a number of reasons.

A. WE KNOW that the x1600/X1300 is delayed until December, not cos they dont have them, heck they're stockpiling the cards...its so that the GT and GTO cards have enough air time.

B. The X1800XT will be in limited quantities, but you'll most likely be able to buy it for less than $600 from at least one partner. This isnt June, so that cant charge the something as RIDICULOUS as $1000, otherwise their product wont sell, and they know that.

Expect the X1800 to be priced <$600.

Perkam

perkam, you'd be surprised...

Price gouging of x800's and 6800ultras last year saw 6800ultras going for $1000+ with ease, same with x800xtpe's... Don't be surprised if what overclockers UK says is true. Especially considering they themselves will be selling these cards, and they're saying they will go for that much!

Also, it should be noted, the 512mb geforce 6800ultra's all sold completely out of stock at $999+(before price gouging, it went OVER that after price gouging), EVEN WITH THE x850XT BEING OUT, AND THE X800XL 512mb BEING $600 LESS!. People WILL pay whatever it costs to have the best, sad but true. Remember BFG saying next round we will be seeing cards go for as much as $1200!

Always remember, when there's a shortage of products, companies charge as much as they possibly can for them, depending on how "in demand" the product is. Now, we're talking about a card who'll be in EXTREMELY limited quanities until the end of the year. This would essentially mean, everyone will be trying to get one, and therefore supply and demand is going to skyrocket that price! Doesn't matter what the board partners say, it's about what the vendors say, as they're the ones who set their price. Also remember ALOT of vendors have a system set up where when products recieve a multitude of clicks their price increases....(newegg and zip-zoom-fly for example)

Supply and demand perkam, supply and demand.

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Originally Posted by DilTech

perkam, you'd be surprised...

Price gouging of x800's and 6800ultras last year saw 6800ultras going for $1000+ with ease, same with x800xtpe's... Don't be surprised if what overclockers UK says is true.

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I have no doubt that was probably the case, Dil...but the 7800GTX isnt $1000 right now, and the X1800 wont be either. YES there'll be that occasional vendor selling for price mainly cos they arent aware how competitive the high end market is now due to Nvidia's multiple homeruns this summer.

But yea, they might come by mid oct, but they, from a marketing perspective, most likely will be price <$600...I can practically guarantee that.

EDIT: Competitive pricing is important too...the x1300 wont be $500 because the 6200 is less than $100. ATI knows its late for the ballgame and vendors who are already stocking a card with 8 more pipes for ~$450 will, following basic logic, shy away from price gouging i believe. Price gouging wasnt present with Nvidia within a week after launch and at that time, it didnt even have a competitor - they could have gotten away by charging $1000 for it, but it didnt happen within the first week or so, and ppl were buying them for $500 pretty quick.

Perkam

perkam, you quoted me while I was editing...re-read my post and adjust yours to what I said.

my theory is that ati really doesnt want to selll x1800xt's at all, i think they will lose money on them, so i think they will not increase production on them until the price on ram goes down.

on the other hand, i expect the xl to be available on launch, very close to msrp. they have to at least come close to nvidia.

yeah but it is atleast a few months till then...

You would have to be totally insane to spend even $600US for a video card. How can anyone justify that cost?

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Originally Posted by Think

You would have to be totally insane to spend even $600US for a video card. How can anyone justify that cost?

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There's something to be said for the Xtreme OCers to be able to say that they(potentially) have the fastest single graphics card on planet earth.

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Originally Posted by DilTech

Positive...Compare results in those games at 1600x1200 4xAA 8xAF with the x800xl 256 compared to the 512, and remember the difference will be bigger with faster gpus...Now remember at 16xAF even more memory is required than with 8xAF. Finally, keep in mind the x800xl 512 beats the x850xt in alot of cases.

Trust me, I'm positive.

The x1800xt IS faster, but the core isn't as big of a difference as ATi is leading you to believe...

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No... 512mb doesnt make a difference. Only in xbit lab's review and only in hl2. Others the difference is minimal and it certanly doesnt beat x850xt. Like I said only in xbitlab's HL2.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2406&p=1
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/gra...charts-08.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...0xl-512mb.html
http://www.hothardware.com/viewartic...?articleid=681

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Originally Posted by perkam

I have no doubt that was probably the case, Dil...but the 7800GTX isnt $1000 right now, and the X1800 wont be either. YES there'll be that occasional vendor selling for price mainly cos they arent aware how competitive the high end market is now due to Nvidia's multiple homeruns this summer.

But yea, they might come by mid oct, but they, from a marketing perspective, most likely will be price <$600...I can practically guarantee that.

EDIT: Competitive pricing is important too...the x1300 wont be $500 because the 6200 is less than $100. ATI knows its late for the ballgame and vendors who are already stocking a card with 8 more pipes for ~$450 will, following basic logic, shy away from price gouging i believe. Price gouging wasnt present with Nvidia within a week after launch and at that time, it didnt even have a competitor - they could have gotten away by charging $1000 for it, but it didnt happen within the first week or so, and ppl were buying them for $500 pretty quick.

Perkam

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Perkam, it's not lack of videocard competition that causes price gouging man, you have that all wrong. It's lack of availability that causes it... Let's put it this way, if there's only 1000 of a specific product worldwide, and your store happens to have 10 of them(which WILL be close to the case with the x1800xt), are you going to sell them at MSRP or are you going to charge an arm and a leg for it? Now, this isn't thinking from a "will it sell" standpoint, you know it will, it's been proven before that people will pay $1000 for a single videocard, as all the vendors sold out of their 512mb geforce6800ultras, and that $1000 was MSRP!

The stores have NO care about what's going on between the two companies, they know they can sell their limited quanity of cards with literally no problem at a super high price, as there's always someone who will buy it, and google sooner or later will bring those 10 people who will to their site.... Besides, it's either pay the stores outrageously high price, or not have one, because very few stores will have it in stock, and therefore you don't have the choice.... THAT'S HOW PRICE GOUGING WORKS PERKAM!

Meanwhile, the 7800gtx wasn't price gouged because they were MASSIVELY available on launch day, as in, people could go to ANY store and buy one on day one, therefore, due to competition BY THE STORES, they instead had to sell LOWER than msrp instead of higher, and still do. Again, stores don't care about Videocard wars, they care about price wars with other e-tailers, and if one/two stores start with a super high price, be sure ALL of them will follow.

So, to sum it all up for you, stores do NOT care about the price of the competitors product, they only care about how much they can make off an item....

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Originally Posted by One_Hertz

No... 512mb doesnt make a difference. Only in xbit lab's review and only in hl2. Others the difference is minimal and it certanly doesnt beat x850xt. Like I said only in xbitlab's HL2.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2406&p=1
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/gra...charts-08.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...0xl-512mb.html
http://www.hothardware.com/viewartic...?articleid=681

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Hey one_Hertz, I'd really hate to have to do this to you, but lets dance....
Look at the attachment, that's what happens in MOST new games, including f.e.a.r. Notice the X800xl actually BEATS the 7800gtx in all but 1600x1200, and it's because of that extra memory. If you put that x800xl at the x850xtpe speeds it would've walked all over it.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2406&p=6
With HL2, that's a 8 fps gain just for having an extra 256mb of ram in that anandtech review. that's at 4xAA 8xAF, not even the memory hogging 4xAA 16xAF they ran the tests in in those slides... 8fps would account for roughly 10-15% by itself, and keep in mind as cores get faster the framerate difference increases....Finally keep in mind that the x800xl 512mb card has a HIGHER memory latency than the 256mb card, and therefore it does show the fact that the extra memory IS making a big difference, considering without the extra latency it would've been more like 15-20 fps gained..

You KNOW games like BF2 and F.E.A.R. use ALOT more videoram than HL2, due to much better textures and effects being ran....

You mean to tell me that you don't think that something that made a 14 fps gain in a game that barely made use of 256mb of videoram at 1280x1024 4xAA 8xAF won't make atleast a 20% difference in games that DO use the videoram, like BF2 and F.E.A.R.?

I'll post more results as I remember where they were, so don't think that's all I'm going to show you... It's just hard finding results in newer games between the x800xl 256 and the 512, as you're right, it doesn't ALWAYS beat the x850xtpe, but in newer games it's becoming much more important, especially in f.e.a.r.

:::edit:::
Lets play use your own links against you hertz...

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...-512mb_15.html

There you have it, the f.e.a.r. beta(who's performance was maybe 1/3rd of the current demo inwhich the benchmark used by ATi in the slide takes place)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xbitlabs

The new RADEON X800 XL again shows how important the amount of graphics memory is for upcoming games. Despite the relatively low frequencies, it delivers the performance of the RADEON X850 XT Platinum Edition and is even faster than this top-end model in 1024x768, even though by 1fps only. Like in the 4x FSAA mode, none of the graphics cards was capable of yielding 20fps even, so the full-screen antialiasing feature is practically useless in F.E.A.R., at least with the current version engine and on the currently available hardware.

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Notice something here? It states, that gpu memory IS important in this particular game... now where is it we see ATi's biggest lead?

Try reading your links instead of just looking at the numbers One, it'll save us both alot of time.

One_Hertz got owned by DilTech it seems. Excellent show you two!