[S/A]How Nvidia blacklists sites like Hardware Secrets

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Originally Posted by Movieman

All I have to say is that I've always looked at video cards like I have at cpu's,sometimes one company has the better product, sometimes the other has.
BUT a company has to understand that the one thing they HAVE to present to the public is believability no matter how they compare to their competitor.
AMD for example has handled this well during the C2D time frame when they were getting beat by Intel.
They worked on their line and brought forth better products to the point where today it's a damned close horse-race between the two companies.

nVidia is seems just hasn't "gotten it" that you can't play these games in the modern world with it's instant worldwide communication.
They will eventually but they will take a big hit in the pocketbook learning this fact.

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The voice of reason has spoken

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Originally Posted by saaya

wow... do you really think so?
a reviewer should basically ignore his own knowledge of the market, his readers and technology and just blindly follow the manufacturer in product reviews? i liked most of your reviews but this... puts them in a different light... :D

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Once again you are reading FAR too much into things.

No matter what you think yourself, CUDA and PhysX are FEATURES. While they may not have a large impact upon the current market, it is up to the writer to talk about FEATURES and let their readers decide if these FEATURES are right for them.

The same thing goes for ATI's Stream, OpenCL, DX11...etc, etc.

NO one said anything about blindly following anything. Talking about features in a matter of fact way without fawning over them is part of EDUCATING your readers.


And obviously, people still don't understand much about CUDA. Gamers don't care about it? Then I guess you don't care about OpenCL, PhysX, Folding@Home, DirectCompute, etc because CUDA is what provides the interface to access these things on NVIDIA GPUs. Again, the same goes for ATI's Stream Compute architecture.

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

No matter what you think yourself, CUDA and PhysX are FEATURES. While they may not have a large impact upon the current market, it is up to the writer to talk about FEATURES and let their readers decide if these FEATURES are right for them.

The same thing goes for ATI's Stream, OpenCL, DX11...etc, etc.

NO one said anything about blindly following anything. Talking about features in a matter of fact way without fawning over them is part of EDUCATING your readers.


And obviously, people still don't understand much about CUDA. Gamers don't care about it? Then I guess you don't care about OpenCL, PhysX, Folding@Home, DirectCompute, etc because CUDA is what provides the interface to access these things on NVIDIA GPUs. Again, the same goes for ATI's Stream Compute architecture.

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Yeah it's all about just letting the average reader know about the features. Educating them about certain technologies such as CUDA, OpenCL, PhysX and DiectComputer really grabs their attention and makes them more likely to go to your site for future reviews on various tech.

Hardware Canucks, and Guru3d both educate the reader, and as a reader myself, i find it very interesting, even if i won't ever use the tech at all.

Almost everyone here learned about CUDA or OpenCL, or other technologies from a review sites, or forums. When a review site just doesn't mention them at all, it's only hurting them.

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

It's BS IMO.

Hardware Secrets also shouldn't take it upon themselves to arbitrarily decide not to mention features (CUDA et all) just because the writer thinks they have no impact upon his readers. They are features which should be talked about even in passing in order to let said readers decide for themselves whether they are important or not.

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I respectfully disagree

While not mentioning CUDA might, in your opinion be wrong, they have every right to not mention it if they think it doesnt affect the readers, and nvidia blacklisting them for that is just plain childish

My respect for nvidia is all but gone now. Sad, really.

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Originally Posted by LightSpeed

I respectfully disagree

While not mentioning CUDA might, in your opinion be wrong, they have every right to not mention it if they think it doesnt affect the readers, and nvidia blacklisting them for that is just plain childish

My respect for nvidia is all but gone now. Sad, really.

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Stating that they were blacklisted to begin with is supposition. Thinking it was because of not mentioning PhysX or CUDA is just taking that supposition to the next level.

Sure they have a right not to mention something what may or may not affect their readers. However, they are doing their readers a disservice since one way or another since certain features (like CUDA) WILL end up having an impact in some way and readers should know more about them. You don't have to make love to a technology to educate people about it. State the facts and that's it.

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

Once again you are reading FAR too much into things.

No matter what you think yourself, CUDA and PhysX are FEATURES. While they may not have a large impact upon the current market, it is up to the writer to talk about FEATURES and let their readers decide if these FEATURES are right for them.

The same thing goes for ATI's Stream, OpenCL, DX11...etc, etc.

NO one said anything about blindly following anything. Talking about features in a matter of fact way without fawning over them is part of EDUCATING your readers.


And obviously, people still don't understand much about CUDA. Gamers don't care about it? Then I guess you don't care about OpenCL, PhysX, Folding@Home, DirectCompute, etc because CUDA is what provides the interface to access these things on NVIDIA GPUs. Again, the same goes for ATI's Stream Compute architecture.

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

Stating that they were blacklisted to begin with is supposition. Thinking it was because of not mentioning PhysX or CUDA is just taking that supposition to the next level.

Sure they have a right not to mention something what may or may not affect their readers. However, they are doing their readers a disservice since one way or another since certain features (like CUDA) WILL end up having an impact in some way and readers should know more about them. You don't have to make love to a technology to educate people about it. State the facts and that's it.

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When mentioning something people want to know more about it,dah.I think you know this already though so why sugar coat it.:shrug:Dx is not cuda based.

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

NO one said anything about blindly following anything. Talking about features in a matter of fact way without fawning over them is part of EDUCATING your readers.

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then why dont you educate your readers and mention all the components that are used on the vga, starting with the smd capacitors and resistors, who manufactured it and what its specifications are and maybe talk a bit about the history of this particular component in the past 20 years? cause nobody cares thats why! :D
and you know what, some EE website might actually care, and their review might actually mention all those details cause their readers do care about it... but why would you force the press to talk about things they know their readers dont care about?

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

And obviously, people still don't understand much about CUDA. Gamers don't care about it? Then I guess you don't care about OpenCL, PhysX, Folding@Home, DirectCompute, etc because CUDA is what provides the interface to access these things on NVIDIA GPUs. Again, the same goes for ATI's Stream Compute architecture.

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most people dont care about opencl, physix, folding at home and direct compute... they want cool explosions and things blowing up and boobs jumping around realistically... they couldnt care less how its done and what marketing name XYZ company came up with for their interface or libraries to get those effects done...

this is like mercedes btching at some car magazine because they didnt mention that mercedes now calls the cigarette lighter "Ultra Cigarette Induction Coil (TM) (R)"... well they probably didnt mention it cause nobody cares...

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Originally Posted by saaya

then why dont you educate your readers and mention all the components that are used on the vga, starting with the smd capacitors and resistors, who manufactured it and what its specifications are and maybe talk a bit about the history of this particular component in the past 20 years? cause nobody cares thats why! :D
and you know what, some EE website might actually care, and their review might actually mention all those details cause their readers do care about it... but why would you force the press to talk about things they know their readers dont care about?

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Oh please. Since when are those features? So maybe websites shouldn't be mentioning DX11 either, right? Stop taking things to a ridiculous levels.

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most people dont care about opencl, physix, folding at home and direct compute... they want cool explosions and things blowing up and boobs jumping around realistically... they couldnt care less how its done and what marketing name XYZ company came up with for their interface or libraries to get those effects done...

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Actually your Mercedes analogy is exactly what you talked about above. There is a clear line between information that matters and TOO MUCH information. Do I need to know about the new cig lighter in the car? Probably not. But do I need to know about things that will affect how I drive the car like traction control or technical achievements like gull-wing doors that open at the touch of a button? You betcha.

And some people read the conclusion of a review and that's it. So what's your point? That websites should pop up a bunch of benchmarks without telling people who CARE how things work? Sorry, that won't go over with me at all.

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Originally Posted by FoldingFanatic

I am not sure why anyone would use ole charlie as an example of unbiased reporting. because hes probably the most biased individual on the net today. And is the worst example of impartial reporting I have ever seen, and this is coming from a former editor.

EG

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Yes, but he tells more truth than Nvidia, so what does that say?

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Originally Posted by Hell Hound

Dx is not cuda based.

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No it isn't but DirectCompute is the API while CUDA or ATI's Stream is the means by which DirectCompute can communicate with NVIDIA and ATI cards.

Let's draw out a Star Trek reference here. Think of OpenCL, DirectCompute, Fortran, etc as aliens that all speak different languages. The only way for us humans to understand them is by way of a universal translator according to the Star Trek universe. Now, replace the humans above with NVIDIA and ATI GPUs and CUDA / Stream becomes the universal translator. Simple, no?

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

It's BS IMO.

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Yeh of course it is, and don't you just hate biased/corrupted opinions, when someone is supposed to be impartial...

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

So according to Charlie, we would be cut out. A number of other large websites would be cut out as well (HardOCP, LegitReviews, Anandtech just to name a few) but they aren't and won't be.

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Charlie said that the sites that would be cut out would be the ones that were small enough to be pushed around...

Also I remember HardOCP doing some serious Nv pandering after their initial rather negative GTX480 review.

I have a feeling, Nv don't feel the need to offer a you a list of talking points :shakes:...

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

Stating that they were blacklisted to begin with is supposition. Thinking it was because of not mentioning PhysX or CUDA is just taking that supposition to the next level.

Sure they have a right not to mention something what may or may not affect their readers. However, they are doing their readers a disservice since one way or another since certain features (like CUDA) WILL end up having an impact in some way and readers should know more about them. You don't have to make love to a technology to educate people about it. State the facts and that's it.

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Seriously... do you ever stop defending Nv??? a company that has demonstrated it's moral bankruptcy publicly many times, and then take every opportunity to sneakily boo boo anything Ati? Seriously I'm not the only one who notices... you have been called out more than once!!!

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Originally Posted by stinkas

Charlie said that the sites that would be cut out would be the ones that were small enough to be pushed around...

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Yup. Then that would be us. We're nowhere near the size of the Hardware Secrets / Brazilian site combination that Gabriel owns. ;)

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Originally Posted by stinkas

Seriously... do you ever stop defending Nv??? a company that has demonstrated it's moral bankruptcy publicly many times, and then take every opportunity to sneakily boo boo anything Ati? Seriously I'm not the only one who notices... you have been called out more than once!!!

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Give it a break. Seriously. Every post I have made here is an effort to shed additional light on the situation. The fact of the matter is that it has become the flavor of the year to bash NV and anyone who tries to talk facts has exactly what you posted above said to them. Nice try though, I've heard it all.

in during excrement storm.

But seriously though, I think everyone needs to take a step back from this one before someone says something they'll later regret. I think we can all agree that the behaviour from nVidia in this regard has been counterproductive and reprehensible, regardless of whether users want to be told whether their card supports CUDA or not.

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

Yup. Then that would be us. We're nowhere near the size of the Hardware Secrets / Brazilian site combination that Gabriel owns. ;)

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Yes, Gabriel commented on that point below. It also adds a lot of weight to the probability that this is how Nv operate considering he isn't some small time reviewer that can be easily 'rewarded' for their reviews.

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Originally Posted by Gabriel

They must think that we are a small entity, forgetting that I am also the editor-in-chief of Clube do Hardware, the largest website about computers in Brazil, with 20 million pageviews and 7.5 million visitors per month – yes, this website is bigger than most North-American reviewing websites (all reviews posted on Hardware Secrets are also posted on Clube do Hardware).

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

The fact of the matter is that it has become the flavor of the year to bash NV and anyone who tries to talk facts has exactly what you posted above said to them. Nice try though, I've heard it all.

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Why do you suppose that is???

i'm all with SKYMTL here. some people here claim he's biased, but reading his comments it seems he's the only one with common sense in this thread and with a rather objective view on this topic.

charlie is by no means better than nvidia. we all know charlie hates nvidia and that he uses every topic to write bad about them. charlie is often talking crap, so is nvidia as well. but how come people believe one over the other? they're both the same in the end though.

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Originally Posted by RaZz!

some people here claim he's biased

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This is becoming increasingly obvious... which is sad.

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Originally Posted by RaZz!

charlie is by no means better than nvidia. we all know charlie hates nvidia and that he uses every topic to write bad about them. charlie is often talking crap, so is nvidia as well. but how come people believe one over the other? they're both the same in the end though.

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I think you'l find that Charlie has been a much more reliable source than Nv...

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Originally Posted by BoredByLife

None of the gamers care about CUDA. Physx, maybe, but CUDA??? If you are a game site, why should you explain anything about CUDA if you know it bores your readers?

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you dont care about it yet. directcompute will be used quite a bit in future games. it's arguably as important, if not more than tessellation or other features of d3d like geometry shaders or stream out.

i agree with SKYMTL, not talking about CUDA and Physx is like not talking about how well fermi does in benchmarks but just talking about how fast it can fry an egg.

stinkas: SKYMTL has already said it is like not talking about steam/eyefinity. And i can tell your not bias by your sig pic

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Originally Posted by TRICHEESE

i agree with SKYMTL, not talking about CUDA and Physx is like not talking about how well fermi does in benchmarks but just talking about how fast it can fry an egg.

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So why isn't SKYMTL talking about Eyefinity & Stream. Like them or not they are still features, one of which is particularly important and you would think he would be dead keen to educate his readers. Bah can't afford another couple of monitors? Yeah right...

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Originally Posted by TRICHEESE

And i can tell your not bias by your sig pic

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Lol, maybe I am! probably because there is only so much crap I can swallow... (But I'm not a reviewer)

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Originally Posted by stinkas

Yes, Gabriel commented on that point below. It also adds a lot of weight to the probability that this is how Nv operate considering he isn't some small time reviewer that can be easily 'rewarded' for their reviews.

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Size means a lot when it comes to who is "in" and who isn't. This is why I doubt that merely failing to mention PhysX / CUDA played a major part in the Hardware Secrets / NVIDIA fall out.

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Originally Posted by stinkas

So why isn't SKYMTL talking about Eyefinity & Stream. Like them or not they are still features, one of which is particularly important and you would think he would be dead keen to educate his readers. Bah can't afford another couple of monitors? Yeah right...

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so your saying he should tell us all the features of Eyefinity and Stream because he's told us about all the features of CUDA and Physx

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Originally Posted by stinkas

So why isn't SKYMTL talking about Eyefinity & Stream. Like them or not they are still features, one of which is particularly important and you would think he would be dead keen to educate his readers. Bah can't afford another couple of monitors? Yeah right...

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I count AT LEAST a half dozen times I have mentioned Stream in this thread.

Not to mention:

ATI's support of OpenCL through Stream and praising their open standards push:

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...-review-4.html

ATI Eyefinity:

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...-review-5.html


Discussions about their HD Audio and VIdeo initiatives as well:

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...-review-6.html


Seriously, every major feature that BOTH NVIDIA and ATI have SHOULD be talked about. Which we and every other sensible website does...

Personally, I think Eyefinity and 3D Vision Surround are elitist solutions that cater to a very small part of the market. Should that stop me from talking about them? NO!

i'm also with skymtl here, there has been no proof apart from charlies "sources", ALL features must be covered... mentioning that a new minivan targetted at houseswives has a twin turbo engine is necessary even if the target audience doesnt care. CUDA is a very important feature as is directcompute, i think you'll find in the near future a lot of cpu based tasks in games such as view frustum culling, pathfinding and collision detection might move to the GPU via interfaces like openCL / CUDA / directcompute.

just my 2c and also want to mention that I also feel that skymtl is the only voice of reason in this thread.