pay to post sponsored builds?

I thinking charging to post sponsored builds is the most silly thing I have ever seen/heard of.

I personally think that with sponsored builds there is definitely a lure for more people to join forums and eventually become a donating member. I for one became a member very shortly after joining because I felt the need to support a community where the wealth of knowledge was overwhelming.

With any of my builds that I also make I always have XS on it because I want to show my support. To be perfectly honest, I don't think my water cooling system building would be where it is now without all the help that I have gotten from XS members.

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Originally Posted by Nickel020

Please read my post again... I did say charging sponsored people was a bad idea imho.

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^_^ so you did, I wasnt trying to attack just kinda using your post as a jumping point for my radical view on the subject.

>_> BUT, after reading what dualbrain posted, my view has somewhat shifted to the other end.

I bet the name of that other forum starts with an H.

Charging a member to post a build thread is just plain wrong.
Nuff on that subject!
To me a guys build serves many things.
His chance at a few moments of glory as people oooh and ahh over his work.
Then the other side is the membership sees a part of the build and learns from it.
It's a two way street and to charge is well..BS..

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Originally Posted by Movieman

Charging a member to post a build thread is just plain wrong.
Nuff on that subject!
To me a guys build serves many things.
His chance at a few moments of glory as people oooh and ahh over his work.
Then the other side is the membership sees a part of the build and learns from it.
It's a two way street and to charge is well..BS..

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yayyyyyyy!! :up: :yepp:

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Originally Posted by dengyong

I bet the name of that other forum starts with an H.

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nope

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Originally Posted by dengyong

I bet the name of that other forum starts with an H.

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Originally Posted by DarthBeavis

nope

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owat!!

I've seen some of those German forums that Nils' speaks of. The banners of those companies that are posted in the build logs are bigger than the ones that the site gets paid for. Also, I don't think ad blockers stop them either.

I don't think it is right to be asked to pay to post a sponsored build log if you are not planning on posting bill boards on your log. For those build logs i have seen with the bill boards, I can understand the wish to charge.

We don't see it here on XS so much thank god. :)

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Originally Posted by millertime359

I've seen some of those German forums that Nils' speaks of. The banners of those companies that are posted in the build logs are bigger than the ones that the site gets paid for. Also, I don't think ad blockers stop them either.

I don't think it is right to be asked to pay to post a sponsored build log if you are not planning on posting bill boards on your log. For those build logs i have seen with the bill boards, I can understand the wish to charge.

We don't see it here on XS so much thank god. :)

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that is not the issue at the site in question

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Originally Posted by DarthBeavis

that is not the issue at the site in question

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Well then, it seems they are just looking for a quick buck. :shakes:

It doesn't really matter though. If people don't like the idea, let the site know by not going there. If traffic drops off and new build logs are not posted there, they will have to stop doing it to be able to hope to stay on the internet. :yepp:

I frequently use the forum in question, and while its a great community IMO, I really don't like that rule. I know if I ever get sponsored for a build or something its not going there, because I'm sure not paying 80 bucks out of pocket just to be allowed to post there, and I'm not going to ask the sponsors for money after they have already generously given me things.

DB,
Do you get paid to do builds for people/companies?

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Originally Posted by meanmoe

DB,
Do you get paid to do builds for people/companies?

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I do builds for companies and get to keep the hardware. I do not get paid so to speak at least not yet

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Originally Posted by dualbrain

I can understand the forum-owners, as the banners etc. you find within a worklog are a cheap solution for companies to get advertising into forums.

Usually they would need to pay the forum-owner for banner-placement etc.
By these extremely growing sponsoring-things in worklogs, the companies save money (hardware-parts - to the company - cost muuuuuch less than what you pay for) on "regular ads" and are also closer to the potential buyer AND adblockers have no chance. This makes the regular paying ad-clients feel like stupid. In Germany the two biggest forums already forbid these banners and big namings of sponsors in worklogs, because the "trademark-grab company from Germany" (yuck!) abused it sooooo much. They only allow to name the sponsor in text form at THE END of the first posting.

I fully understand it from the view of the forum owners and also from the perspective of many users who don't want to feel that our hobby is turning in to commercial uglyness where you don't know anymore if "good talking about a company / product" is because it's true, or just because the person needs to say it.

I see it like this:
Forum-owners earn less and less money with the growing "ad-placement" in worklogs. If the forum-owner doesn't earn enough money anymore, he can't run the forum - and you lose a home. This of course only applies to forums where the owner is not Robin Hood. People who take something should sometimes give something back.

Just my three cent and personal view on the topic.

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I can't believe I'm doing this but. . .+1 couldn't agree more.

I hate to pick out any one build or person here (and there is nothing personal in this selection, it just happened to be the most convenient one on hand) but, let's take some known examples from XS and put them into a scenario. Let's take phinix_mike's build log for example, He has DFI as a sponsor, that's free ad time for DFI, Gigbyte on the other hand, has paid to have their banner up at the top of the forum. If Gigabyte sees that DFI has done a simple sponsorship deal, they may very well pull their banner (and money) and just go the sponsorship route as well. I may not have a MBA or any other business/economics degrees but if I can do a few sponsorship deals "cheaper" than actually paying for the ad time, it makes perfect sense to me that I should do it.

The way around this however, is to mandate in the forum rules somewhere that if you post up banners of sponsors, they must already be paying for ad time on that site, otherwise. . .they get pulled. This way the site won't lose any revenue and no manufacturer gets free ad time.

I also consider these build log banners a popular tool of shills. Now, I'm not saying all builders that use banners are shills but, a large number of them are.

:2cents:

Disclaimer: The views expressed by the author are not necessarily the views of XS or anyone else but the author himself.

I dont know. Quite a hard topic really :). While I agree with waterlogged and nils a lot, I still feel like you shouldnt ban it completely. I see that this could easily result in no more companies sponsoring any of the awesome builds that we see in worklogs. I mean, why would they since they wouldnt get their name out even though they sponsored it.

But of course huge banners also arent fair compared to those that pay for advertising (although of course a paid banner has more visibility than a banner thats only in one worklog).

So maybe just like limit it a bit? Ban the huge ass banners but less people atleast list the sponsors. So instead of those huge banners, just make a list of the sponsors. That way you cant really compare them to paid advertisements but atleast they are mentioned there.

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Originally Posted by NKrader

owat!!

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It probably begins [ :ROTF:

Interesting debate. It's all pretty much been said - but I agree there is a need for balance.

Like DB said, it's good to know when someone has been sponsored on a particular component in their build, as that let's us make up our own mind as to how we choose to interpret any comments about performance (although, I don't recall seeing this be a real issue in the logs here). On the other hand, I don't care to see large advertising-like banners in a worklog.

As for having to pay to post your sponsored work log - seems like a great way to keep some of the top builders out of a given forum. There are other ways to handle the advertising issue if that's what the concern is, like allowing mention of sponsors but no large banners.

People who do worklogs are donating their time and talents to helping build a site's traffic. So, if you charge the ones who are sponsored, are you going to pay the ones who aren't?

And - slightly off topic, but I do have a concern with the apparent growing number of sponsorships. It surprises me sometimes when I see relatively new "modders" being sponsored - for some it seems to be a badge of honor of sorts. I'd just hate to see it grow to a situation where people who are not sponsored begin to feel that their builds are second rate. There is a potential downside to companies if they hand out lots of parts to people who haven't "earned the right to race," so to speak - and that's the risk of pissing off many folks who paid full price for their fittings or waterblocks.

Again, there has to be a balance. As the hobby grows, we'll see more sponsorships. I'm waiting to buy my DarthBeavis edition water blocks with matching fittings (and you know I'm serious, DB ;) )

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

I can't believe I'm doing this but. . .+1 couldn't agree more.

I hate to pick out any one build or person here (and there is nothing personal in this selection, it just happened to be the most convenient one on hand) but, let's take some known examples from XS and put them into a scenario. Let's take phinix_mike's build log for example, He has DFI as a sponsor, that's free ad time for DFI, Gigbyte on the other hand, has paid to have their banner up at the top of the forum. If Gigabyte sees that DFI has done a simple sponsorship deal, they may very well pull their banner (and money) and just go the sponsorship route as well. I may not have a MBA or any other business/economics degrees but if I can do a few sponsorship deals "cheaper" than actually paying for the ad time, it makes perfect sense to me that I should do it.

The way around this however, is to mandate in the forum rules somewhere that if you post up banners of sponsors, they must already be paying for ad time on that site, otherwise. . .they get pulled. This way the site won't lose any revenue and no manufacturer gets free ad time.

I also consider these build log banners a popular tool of shills. Now, I'm not saying all builders that use banners are shills but, a large number of them are.

:2cents:

Disclaimer: The views expressed by the author are not necessarily the views of XS or anyone else but the author himself.

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I couldn't agree less with you, mate. Lets just look at the numbers, shall we? XS receives around 1.200.000 visits a month. So, if we take in mind that the liquid cooling worklog forum is quite small compared to any of the other forums (in which there are not sponsored builds showings ads, of course) and that the ads only appear on the first page, we are talking about an uber small number here.

I don't see the issue...because whenever somebody does a review (for a product he has bought) we could have the same issue but nobody complains about that which is something I don't get at all: if we talk about free ads then everything that relates to a brand is a free ad...but hey, this is a forum and we are talking about new products and brands all the time so, free ads everywhere?

It would be different if this forum was focused on the worklog section but, as it is, it's not.

I think the main issue here is that companies have realised the potential of how a good mod can raise their company profile or at least product profile by simply being involved with a high profile modder.

I've never been involved with a company who insists i add banner ads to my logs but in the past i have taken it upon myself to add banners to the first post as i think it only right i show my appreciation, gratitude and support for a said company who has put their faith in me to show off their product to the best of my ability but in no way has it ever been a stipulation to receive hardware, in fact far from it.

I think most companies realise that the viewing public are pretty switched on when identifying products and will know the different hardware used and if for what ever reason they don't, they can always post in the thread and ask so i think most companies are happy that the individual modder has chosen to use their product (which, lets face it, is usually because its decent kit) and glean what ever publicity from that alone.

I've always looked at modding as a hobby and whatever tips or tricks i can pass on along the way to a forum community is an added bonus so charging to show a prod log in my opinion is a no win situation as i as a modder won't get the exposure, the companies won't get the publicity and the viewing public won't get to view the prod log.

Seriously, i would rather change my hobby than pay to have my work seen on a forum that should be quite frankly looking at other avenues to generate revenue rather than trying to exploit the very people that have made the community in the first place.

In fact, i might start charging forums to post my logs :ROTF:

I have no problem giving props to companies that make good products whether it be from sponsorship or me just buying them. :)

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Originally Posted by dualbrain

I'm completely on your side with the way you do it as far as you describe it.

The huge-banners and "i first want to thank Abmahntuning (written in huuuuge) and Phoetus for their superior products" texts at the beginning of the first posting of a worklog is, what I think is disgusting. I just know it in its extremest uglyness from the german forums, where they pulled the emergency-break because of this. There were 70% of so called "zombie-worklogs" where the only purpose was: The sponsor was praised, no matter what the worklog was, no matter if it was total garbage etc. Only 30% of active worklogs were without the huuuge banners of the two mentioned names.

That's what I refer to basically :) I don't know if the other place you talk about had these kind of developments.

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I completely disagree with you , there´s no superior level behind being sponsored or not , is just to thank the brands for the suport of course its free publicity but a forum doesnt lives only of the brands that pay for the adds ;)

And the companies pay millions for adds that aren´t even sucesfull sometimes , this is the best marketing it´s a win/win relation for the brand and the modder or the person that is sponsored , and its really cheap publicity , you dont like it because those cases in germany?

Than kind of makes me laguh, it´s ridiculous the point that people get just by jealous or by being afraid of losing the companies or brand suport or banners or advertsiment or whatever, if we modders need suport , brands need publicity , its one of their main requirements so for me it doesnt makes sense, if a forum doesnt want´s sponsor builds then do the same thing that this one did.


And not everyone can be like Darth Beavis , he has lots of sponsors and is recognized by his builds , so brands are easy with him but the "little" modders dont have this kind of advantages , so it´s unfair some arguments that you try to use :up:

There are many points of view about this issue , but this is for the forum Admins to decide, if they forbidden the sponsored builds it´s obvious they will lose a lot of users ...

Good points from Sharon and Waterlogged.

There is another issue too, as the banners in build logs are not actual banner ads, so they do not get blocked by programs like adblocker. (I don't currently use any of that software so i don't know)

That means that according to Waterlogged's example thread, Gigabyte may not get any exposure due to being blocked, but that list of sponsors will get all the exposure. Granted you do have to look at the build log, but do you really come on forum's like this and never look at build logs? ;)

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Originally Posted by DarthBeavis

I do builds for companies and get to keep the hardware. I do not get paid so to speak at least not yet

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So besides hardware and occasional free trip to vegas, you're just a poor (but talented) case modder being screwed by the system ;)

Actually, the reason I asked is because it would be a completely different scenario if you were. You understand this I'm sure. Have you asked to be compensated? I've bought a couple of things after having seen you use them. e.g. reservoirs, torture rack... (mine is not quite as bright though :) )

I still have to say that I think it's completely up to the forum owner, and although it sucks, there are so many other venues along with your own website. If it hurts the forum owners more then helps, they'll change their policy I'm sure. Although, I doubt it'll hurt them.

Having run a business myself, I have to say that I'm surprised that it's just now happening, that forums are just now turning that commercial in this way and closing hole for 'free' advertising (from their perspective). Nils has the logic right.

Fascinating discussion, here's a thought as to what could be done as a solution(it's completely wild and will no doubt be unpopular but let's see)
You currently have a subforum for worklogs (note this could be any site, most have this setup)
We have 2 subforums,
1 for user builds (unsponsored, normal banner ads)
1 for sponsored builds (NO banner ads, BUT the sponsors have to pay a fee in order to be displayed there)

Now I can already see a flaw there, being that sponsors are far less likely to jump on board if instead of say 50 bucks of goods they have to provide 50 bucks of goods and x dollars to promote a build.

But yeah it's just a thought, or perhaps make it such that in the sponsored buildlog forum you use a different advertising 'group' say movies (I don't pay much attention to the ads, busy staring at the pretty pictures :up:)

Interesting read... and interesting to see how DB's OP turned into a "what XS should do".

I know for myself I include a company logo/banner in articles regardless of whether I received a sample gratis or spent lab money to buy the sample. Just using components from a company in a worklog/thread is marketing and advertising. With ads, most of us have become blind to ads and banners from our normal surfing anyhow.

I see a larger question though... Why is there all this drama and politics taking center stage in our hobby rather than pushing the limits of builds, systems and design?